'Hope' (214) General Discussion

[s09119]

Tough episode to rate, but to me it feels (even without factoring in the cancellation) like SGU really has jumped the shark.

There is absolutely no way a medic would even try a kidney transplant, much less know what is necessary about compatibility, etc.

I also object to the three guy's having all their loves in one body - borderline kinky on a cosmological scale.

Too bad about SGU - it has some good characters, some good to very good actors, a few neat ideas. The stories though are unhinged.

How does that make it jump the shark? She was essentially reading off a how-to guide from the Ancients, using extremely advanced technology to make the process even easier, and then had Perry walk her through the rest. Seemed perfectly acceptable to me, particularly if she got any advanced medic training and not just first aid and what-not.

Furthermore... why the objection, exactly? It wasn't played off like some sexual fantasy, it was downright tragic. And it's not like people sharing bodies and seeing people they have feelings for is new. Cadman, anyone?

[Ian-S]

You're not the only two, I had to take a strong dose of the "suspend logical thinking" pill to get through the episode, I can see what they're trying to do with showing the stress etc. on TJ, but there is no way any sane field medic would attempt a transplant anywhere, let alone however many millions of light years they are away.

I'm also not sure why they made such a big deal over extracting the marrow from Greer either, according to a friend of mine who's had that done, you absolutely have to have anaesthetic because even with it, it's still an excruciatingly painful experience, no Doctor would allow you to go through that drug free.

Felt like a filler episode, drama wise was ok, funny in places (especially the music), but factually so far from reality it was bordering on insanity and asking the viewer to suspend all knowledge of real life to not sit there yelling at the TV.

[traylormatt]

Tough episode to rate, but to me it feels (even without factoring in the cancellation) like SGU really has jumped the shark.

There is absolutely no way a medic would even try a kidney transplant, much less know what is necessary about compatibility, etc.

I also object to the three guy's having all their loves in one body - borderline kinky on a cosmological scale.

Too bad about SGU - it has some good characters, some good to very good actors, a few neat ideas. The stories though are unhinged.

Absolutely no way that they could do the transplant? So I going to assume that you are a trained military officer in the most advanced unit in the world working for a secret branch of the US military thus understanding exactly what training they go through, or know someone who is also in a very advanced and secret section of the military who shares their training with you. Or who has been on an advanced ship for a year, learning all about their advanced techniques and being thrown in at the deep end on more than one occasion. And also have the assistance of person who can directly communicate with medical knowledge of an advanced race of people far beyond our current level of understanding. If you are then you're right.

Objecting to three guy's having one body share three consciousness in one body seeming to be "borderline kinky" says more about yourself than the writers, as any sexual advancement in the show was quickly stopped because they saw it as wrong.

But either way, opinions are opinions. I thought it was another great episode, not quite to the level of the other recent ones on the back half of 2.5 but no series ever has constant 10/10. They occasionally need to have an 8/10, which I believe this was.

[The_Asgard_live]

How does that make it jump the shark? She was essentially reading off a how-to guide from the Ancients, using extremely advanced technology to make the process even easier, and then had Perry walk her through the rest. Seemed perfectly acceptable to me, particularly if she got any advanced medic training and not just first aid and what-not.

That doesn't matter, you can read whatever howto you want, have the most expensive guitar and have the disembodied voices of Jimmy Page or Jimi Hendrix (pick your Jimmy) whispering in your ear, you are not going to pull off the big live show unless you got the years of experience and the chops.

This is a transplant we are talking about.

[s09119]

That doesn't matter, you can read whatever howto you want, have the most expensive guitar and have the disembodied voices of Jimmy Page or Jimi Hendrix (pick your Jimmy) whispering in your ear, you are not going to pull off the big live show unless you got the years of experience and the chops.

This is a transplant we are talking about.

Yes, it is a transplant. Not a concert. They're different.

At a concert, your performance depends entirely on others' perceptions of how you did. In a surgery, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to complete it or how slowly you need to go so long as you're following the steps and being methodical.

[The_Asgard_live]

Yes, it is a transplant. Not a concert. They're different.

At a concert, your performance depends entirely on others' perceptions of how you did. In a surgery, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to complete it or how slowly you need to go so long as you're following the steps and being methodical.

Okay, I am not a doctor, and I am assume you aren't either, so for us to even have a discussion, we both run the risk of potentially speaking out of our bums. If there is a doctor, feel free the smack down the misinformation and school us. With that said, here is what I think I know...

1. You are incorrect, it does matter how long it takes you to complete it. You need to get blood flowing to tissues (or else they die) and in the real world, so far as I know, the longer they keep you under, the riskier it gets.

2. You can be methodical, but you still need the trained/practiced dexterity and confidence to cut apart and sew together those kinds of delicate materials. And disembodied voice or not, simply executing the correct steps does not guarantee a positive outcome.

3. A surgery of this type takes hours upon hours. The show claimed what? 4-6 hours? I think it takes a special kind of stamina (maybe one achieved through practice/experience) to stand in place for 4-6 hours and cut apart and sew together delicate tissues. This may be why transplants are done by "transplant teams" and specialized surgeons.

4. Specialization. To my knowledge, the surgeons who do this are specialized and specifically trained for it. No disrespect to medics, but isn't their job just to patch you together so that you last long enough to be taken to a proper OR with proper surgeons?

5. So far as I remember, they weren't even wearing surgical masks. The conditions were ridiculously implausible to me.

[Kilgharrah]

I agree with everyone that it's not rational. I thought about it during the episode and thought there was something I missed. I think that all that time on Destiny, TJ was studying medical stuff on the database and maybe getting some help from Earth. I know that it still makes it unreal for her to perform such operation, but, did you forget Greer's infection???
I think TPTB put that in mind and there's going to be consequences for this operation. Maybe it will not be death as someone assumed, but still something terrible. That is of course my speculation. Right now no one knows what the writers were thinking. Whether they just made the situation resolve easier than reality or just going to get back to it later with a conflict depending on the consequences.

[morbosfist]

TJ performing the operation may not have been normal, but seriously, what other choice did she have? Let Volker just die? Be reasonable.

TJ made due, and because the database pretty much says exactly how to do the operation, she is little different from an actual doctor performing it other than in terms of skill. Learning how to be a doctor, unlike playing an instrument, isn't exactly something you can do through trial and error.

The operation, aside from the method of entry, isn't that unrealistic, either. TJ makes a specific point that she doesn't have forever to get it done. The computer shutting down mid-operation was a huge problem, one that was barely saved by Perry's intervention. There's also Greer's infection.

[The_Asgard_live]

TJ performing the operation may not have been normal, but seriously, what other choice did she have? Let Volker just die? Be reasonable.

Well. I have been told that what makes this show 'special' compared to the other SG series is that it is real. Real people behaving like real people would.

Realistically, what they did would kill one dying person and one healthy person as well.

TJ made due, and because the database pretty much says exactly how to do the operation, she is little different from an actual doctor performing it other than in terms of skill. Learning how to be a doctor, unlike playing an instrument, isn't exactly something you can do through trial and error.

I guess I am unsure why people are thinking that performing a successful transplant surgery is merely a matter of having access to the right database and being well read (only hours before performing the surgery).

Could you do it if a doctor was telling you what to do? This isn't delivering a baby. This is standing in place and sewing together delicate tissues for 4-6 hours without seemingly having ever done it before, solo, no team, and a kidney that is not a good match.

[morbosfist]

Well. I have been told that what makes this show 'special' compared to the other SG series is that it is real. Real people behaving like real people would.

Realistically, what they did would kill one dying person and one healthy person as well.

Only if the operation wasn't performed correctly, and since TJ has at least had some medical training, the chances of that happening go from "absolutely certain" to "acceptable risk", given the circumstances.

I guess I am unsure why people are thinking that performing a successful transplant surgery is merely a matter of having access to the right database and being well read (only hours before performing the surgery).

Could you do it if a doctor was telling you what to do? This isn't delivering a baby. This is standing in place and sewing together delicate tissues for 4-6 hours without seemingly having ever done it before, solo, no team, and a kidney that is not a good match.

I couldn't, but then I have no medical training whatsoever. TJ does, and so can be reasonably expected to be familiar enough with the human body that she could make due under instruction. Not to mention the fact that she has Ancient medical technology supplementing her work.

[traylormatt]

I guess I am unsure why people are thinking that performing a successful transplant surgery is merely a matter of having access to the right database and being well read (only hours before performing the surgery).

Could you do it if a doctor was telling you what to do? This isn't delivering a baby. This is standing in place and sewing together delicate tissues for 4-6 hours without seemingly having ever done it before, solo, no team, and a kidney that is not a good match.

I don't think most people are claiming it is that simple. They didn't ask anyone else to do it after just reading the manuals. They asked a trained medic. It isn't the same as if just anyone was reading through or being told what to do. She had prior experience in dealing with people bleeding out, stitching people back together etc. Over a year or so she would have gained a lot more experience in all of these matters through practical experience. She was simply the most trained person on board. The first time some one ever did a transplant they would not have known exactly how to do it, what problems would go wrong etc they would have had an idea but not known, they would have just had to try, like TJ did She also had the benefit of advanced procedures and some advanced technology to perform the surgery. These advantages bring her up to a level that makes it possible for her to do. Yes if she did 100 times and a trained surgeon did it 100 times then the surgeon would have a better success rate. But she managed to do this one relatively successfully, given that Greer has an infection of sorts she didn't do it perfectly, but I think to a level that is believable.

Do not forget she is a trained officer in the most advanced and elite force ever known on earth, I think that she would have the physical and mental ability to stand in one place for say 4+ hours concentrating on something. Surgeons have teams because it makes it easier and they often need to do more than one operation in a day. She was doing the one, I can imagine the adrenaline + her physical and mental training of being an officer would have helped a lot for the stamina needed.

[colin15watt]

Spoiler:

I'm sure I seen in a blog somewhere someone had asked if the crew would ever get any new clothes, and they replied 'see the back half of season 2', so with that in mind (and assuming i didn't imagine seeing that), I'm thinking that they will get a supply line in next weeks episode, so theoritically, could they not send replicator bodies too for Ginn and Perry? I mean, they've made them before, and by now they could say that they've gained the technology to create human like they did in The Mortal Coil (i think?). So maybe that'll be the way around it? Can't imagine any alien races conveniently helping them create bodies...

think that was a really good episode, and I dunno about Greer dying, I don't think they'd kill him like THAT, if they were gonna kill him then I reckon they'd make him kick the bucket whilst saving someones life or something, like a heroic death? But I've been wrong before I guess.

[Machiavel]

A kidney transplant only take about 3 hours and 3-5 days after the patient has his kidney functionning at optimal performance. It takes a bit longer when it is from a dead body
but yes a transplant only take 3 hours sometime even less. When you do a transplantation, you don't need to cut the existing and remove the kidney. The kidney will often be relocated in your body in a cavity.As to if she would be able to do that , probably not but I do not understand the people crying for this and at the same times finding ftl travel threw galaxies a normal occurence. Some of you just want to find bad things to say about the show that is all. Alien, ftl, flying from galaxies; no problem but do not talk about a transplantation because it is so unrealistic. The forum is full of kiddies or what.

Arguing over a kidney but traveling threw space = no prblem at all.Some of you have time to spend on non-important facts.

[The_Asgard_live]

A kidney transplant only take about 3 hours and 3-5 days after the patient has his kidney functionning at optimal performance. It takes a bit longer when it is from a dead body
but yes a transplant only take 3 hours sometime even less. When you do a transplantation, you don't need to cut the existing and remove the kidney. The kidney will often be relocated in your body in a cavity.As to if she would be able to do that , probably not but I do not understand the people crying for this and at the same times finding ftl travel threw galaxies a normal occurence. Some of you just want to find bad things to say about the show that is all. Alien, ftl, flying from galaxies; no problem but do not talk about a transplantation because it is so unrealistic. The forum is full of kiddies or what.

Arguing over a kidney but traveling threw space = no prblem at all.Some of you have time to spend on non-important facts.

Greetings... heck of a first post. Its a TV show, they are all non-important facts.

If I wanted to say bad things about the show, I could be more creative. I hated season 1. Season 2 has been fairly decent.

Traveling through space at FTL requires complete suspension of disbelief. Everyone knows we can't do it. Its technology that doesn't exist. You can't argue the merits of the flux capacitor for traveling through time, because someone conjured that device out of thin air. That in its own way makes it easier to accept than the portrayal of something that actually exists where you can compare it to reality. On a show that prides itself on supposed 'realism' (or at least the uber fans think so) within a unrealistic setting, I'd say its to be expected. There have been debates about the proper conduct/gear/dress of the military on the show.

All that said, I am still not anywhere convinced that such a transplant could be handled by a solo Medic who read up on the procedure only mere hours before hand.

[LtColCarter]

Greetings... heck of a first post. Its a TV show, they are all non-important facts.

If I wanted to say bad things about the show, I could be more creative. I hated season 1. Season 2 has been fairly decent.

Traveling through space at FTL requires complete suspension of disbelief. Everyone knows we can't do it. Its technology that doesn't exist. You can't argue the merits of the flux capacitor for traveling through time, because someone conjured that device out of thin air. That in its own way makes it easier to accept than the portrayal of something that actually exists where you can compare it to reality. On a show that prides itself on supposed 'realism' (or at least the uber fans think so) within a unrealistic setting, I'd say its to be expected. There have been debates about the proper conduct/gear/dress of the military on the show.

All that said, I am still not anywhere convinced that such a transplant could be handled by a solo Medic who read up on the procedure only mere hours before hand.