'Cloverdale' (205) General Discussion

[carmencatalina]

For some reason, I'm more creeped out by alien fungi/plants that infect you with their spores than by other types of aliens. (This is on topic - it is one of the reasons why this episode could be considered the very best.)

The thought of something growing in you that way - so yucky.

[Petra]

How about Greer dancing?
Volker as a pharmacist?
Brody owning a bar?
Rush being vague in a really cool way?

How about the venom not working for a change?
Or TJ being in charge?

I wouldn't say that it's the best episode of the franchise, but it's up there among them.

[Kaiphantom]

Okay, so supposedly this is the better place for it, and before I start, I'm going to post this link regarding Cable TV and cancellations again.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this was a stupendous episode, because it was so smart and intellectual. Despite that, it is STILL a bad choice for SGU and a bad move in general. With ratings and the cable TV situation as shaky as it is, it is NOT the kind of episode you want to air.

Why?

Because as we've seen here, it turns a LOT of people off. And you need those people to bolster ratings. Accept for the moment that people are sheep, and are interested in mindless crap like space battles and sci fi scenarios. Thus, you need to churn out episodes like that in order to keep as many people watching as possible.

"Intellectual" episodes should only be aired if the show is on stable footing. JM said that the front half of Season 2 determines whether Season 3 is given a go-ahead. In that light, this episode should have been saved for the back-half, or told in a different way so it wasn't so yawn-inducing to a great many people. You put most of your good episodes upfront that will end up being most popular, so that the show is renewed. Then you can slip in a Cloverdale or two in the back.

As it stands, regardless of what you think of Cloverdale, it could very well be one of the nails in the coffin that ends up canceling SGU. Note that, at this point, I don't want to see it canceled, but I admit I'm having trouble finding enthusiasm to say it should be continued. I'm on the fence, and am a clear target that can be recruited; that's where this opinions I'm coming from. I'm neither a fanboy, nor a hater.

Caprica should be a very clear warning about what is coming, and why it failed should be a very clear lesson to SGU. Caprica had a few too many yawn-inducing episodes, regardless of how intellectual they may seem. Even if you're right with how great this episode is, you're still going to end up being wrong.

[Homer 120]

Love this episode! Loved the fact that pretty much everyone in Cloverdale was part of the Destiny crew. OMG that ending! The way it was shot, the music everything! Brad outdid himself with this one imho, as did Goldsmith!

8.9/10

[The Swarm]

Okay, so supposedly this is the better place for it, and before I start, I'm going to post this link regarding Cable TV and cancellations again.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that this was a stupendous episode, because it was so smart and intellectual. Despite that, it is STILL a bad choice for SGU and a bad move in general. With ratings and the cable TV situation as shaky as it is, it is NOT the kind of episode you want to air.

Why?

Because as we've seen here, it turns a LOT of people off. And you need those people to bolster ratings. Accept for the moment that people are sheep, and are interested in mindless crap like space battles and sci fi scenarios. Thus, you need to churn out episodes like that in order to keep as many people watching as possible.

"Intellectual" episodes should only be aired if the show is on stable footing. JM said that the front half of Season 2 determines whether Season 3 is given a go-ahead. In that light, this episode should have been saved for the back-half, or told in a different way so it wasn't so yawn-inducing to a great many people. You put most of your good episodes upfront that will end up being most popular, so that the show is renewed. Then you can slip in a Cloverdale or two in the back.

As it stands, regardless of what you think of Cloverdale, it could very well be one of the nails in the coffin that ends up canceling SGU. Note that, at this point, I don't want to see it canceled, but I admit I'm having trouble finding enthusiasm to say it should be continued. I'm on the fence, and am a clear target that can be recruited; that's where this opinions I'm coming from. I'm neither a fanboy, nor a hater.

Caprica should be a very clear warning about what is coming, and why it failed should be a very clear lesson to SGU. Caprica had a few too many yawn-inducing episodes, regardless of how intellectual they may seem. Even if you're right with how great this episode is, you're still going to end up being wrong.

Like Atlantis did?
All those mindless action scenes, vague and cliche Marry Sue-ish characters , poorly writen episodes in the last two seasons did save it did it...

I understand that people love explosions and shooting scenes, but that gets old even faster.

Also Caprica was suuuuuuuuch a sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow and overdramatic series that it made SGU look like a Steven Segal movie.

[ipfnd]

Phantom, I agree with you 100%. I'm not very confident that season 3 is anywhere near a go at this point.

[Ashizuri]

How about Greer dancing?

How about Greer dancing in a hot pink shirt!

[Kaiphantom]

Like Atlantis did?
All those mindless action scenes, vague and cliche Marry Sue-ish characters , poorly writen episodes in the last two seasons did save it did it...

I understand that people love explosions and shooting scenes, but that gets old even faster.

Also Caprica was suuuuuuuuch a sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow and overdramatic series that it made SGU look like a Steven Segal movie.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be. There are a number of factors, among which is how much the show costs, vs. the viewership it is pulling in. Also, the last season of SGA pulled in an average of 1.3(and previous seasons got between 1.5 and 3.0!). Season two of SGU has pulled in so far:

Intervention: 1.175
Aftermath: 1.07
Awakening: 1.222
Pathogen: 0.974
Cloverdale: 1.01

If SGA was canceled when it had better ratings, what chance do you think SGU has? And note the two worse performers in terms of ratings, which were also the two worst episodes this season, as far as yawn-factors go. Objectively speaking, Cloverdale is one of the worst SGU episodes, and one of the worst SG episodes in general, in the minds of the viewership.

If you want to save the series, it might behoove you to find out why. I've already outlined it.

SGA had a solid 5 seasons, thanks to it's ratings. Let's see if SGU can do the same. If I were a network exec, looking at the more expensive nature of SGU, and the fact that it's getting worse ratings than SGA, I'd wonder who the idiot was that canceled SGA, and why we're not pulling the plug on SGU.

Note: I don't particularly want to see it canceled, but I'd be hard-pressed to justify it. And I've already provided my reasons for why the studio is killing it, and how I would save it.

[Petra]

We get NONE of that from Scott. Dream sequences are always tricky, because you actually have to show new and meaningful things. They didn't do that here. Everything we saw, about how Scott feels about everyone and himself, is stuff we already knew. This makes the episode redundant. As someone said, the dream sequences were just episode padding, and nothing more.

Really? So why have you never told us that Scott sees Greer as a fun type, guy who smartly dresses, laughs a lot, likes to flirt and dance? I sure didn't know it, as we don't usually see this side of Greer on the ship. Why have you never pointed out that while Eli considers Scott his best friend, Scott himself thinks he's closer to Chloe? Why haven't you told us that apparently Scott still has hots for Vanessa, even though he turned her down rather harshly in previous episodes? I could go on and on. The point is, we obviously didn't know all these things. If you did, you should have shared, but since you never did...

Its very telling and frankly kinda bold to go that route with a main star of a Stargate series, a franchise which tends to make its lead characters perfect and incapable of such weaknesses. But, oh, I forgot. The characters on the previous shows were the most three dimensional and well developed characters in sci fi history. Uh-huh.

I'll give you SGA characters (they were one of the reasons I could never get into that show) and some later SG-1 characters (Vala! oh, Vala), but I'll defend original SG-1 members to death IMO they WERE three dimensional and well developed, with rich backstory. They made mistakes, they payed for them, they threw tantrums and generally were capable of genuine emotion, both positive and negative. They are the reason I love SG-1 so much.

In the scene from Pathogen last week he asked Chloe where there relationship was going. He wanted to know if they had met under different circumstances away from the ship if they would still be together. She replied with a yes and he expressed that it was all new to him and that he had never been all that great at relationships. He wanted to make sure that he didn't mess their relationship up because he had noticed her being quiet and was beginning to wonder if he was messing up. If that's not doubt I don't know what is.

Actually, for me it looked like concern for her well-being with big dose of love.

Oh, as a writer myself, let me share this tip: Don't take a chapter to tell to the readers something that could be done just as effectively in one paragraph.

Unless you are willing to point us to your work so we can judge for ourselves how good and successful you are, please refrain from such remarks. Nobody cares who you are in RL, and your condescending tone really isn't appreciated.

Of course, but I hate to tell you here mate, but within the pilot ep of SGA I knew Shepp was a gung ho freak with suicidal tendancies and authority issues, and that was based on a few lines of dialogue and the way he carried himself. Later on, you actually got to see how "dark" Shepp really was (esp with the "iratus bug" stuff and Vegas)

As usual I enjoyed the Greer-Rush interplay. I just can't help but get the sense that these two people just understand each other on some base level no matter how different they are.

I don't know about understanding each other - they seemed pretty hostile in Air III - but I agree that their interplay is awesome. I'd love to see more of it.

There was also a lot of hilarious stuff in this one, this is the first SGU ep that I've largely laughed through. The blatant MGM self-promotion was a riot, I loved that Brody owned the bar in town, I got a huge kick out of James as the hot ex-girlfriend waitress at the bachelor party, I was pleased to see LDP again, and oh man....I freaking howled at Rush in cowboy boots

Oh yes. I found it incredibly funny as well. And people say that there's no humour in SGU...

This! I'm a little disheartened by all the negativity because it doesn't match what I experienced at all! Pity.

Yeah, me too. I didn't expect such lukewarm response either. Shame.

How about Greer dancing in a hot pink shirt!

Oh yeah! We need pics! Lots and lots of them! And who knew Greer enjoys clubbing? (or at least such music).

Cloverdale

Apparently I'm in minority who freaking LOVED this episode. This is why Brad Wright is one of my favourite writers. No one else can write such character focused little gems. Solitudes, 2010, The Shrine and now Cloverdale. Hats off for BW. He not only managed to interest me in the most bland (IMO) SGU character, Scott, but also fall in love with Scott-centric episode. Wow. And he made Chloe an interesting, multilayered character. For the first time I loved her too. Once again I must say that no one knows and writes SG characters as well as BW.

I'm not sure there's a point in writing a review, because I'd be only gushing how great it was, LOL. I loved everything. Insight into Scot's mind and how he sees people closest to him. Funny, lighthearted side of Greer. Rush being awesome, for a change. I truly enjoyed him both in the dream and in reality. His doubts regarding Chloe and his feeling that he does things he thinks he should do, out of duty and not real passion or want.

I loved Young, who also for a change performed his commander duties perfectly. I loved that Park had more screentime and that she could be so focused on science and worried at the same time. this shows why she was chosen for the Stargate program.

I thought the trick with showing us how Scott was infected via movie in a cinema in his vision was really neat. The idea of human body becoming incubator for alien spores is really spooky and I loved its execution. Scenes on the planet were well-done and I freaking loved the ending, with its symbolism and music and action scenes of Greer being awesome, loyal and self-sacrificing. Was the symbolism very simplistic? Yes it was, but it doesn't change the fact that it was very effective.

One last thing. I'm tired of all those posts saying "it's The Changeling rip-off". Following this logic one must conclude that The Real World was also a rip-off and The Changeling itself was a rip-off of Meridian which in turn was a rip off of Forever in a Day. Please. That fact that all those episodes use the idea of dream/hallucination doesn't make them each other's copies. Each one of them is distinctly different. FIAD, The Changeling and Cloverdale prove that you can take the same basic concept and turn it into 3 different, but nevertheless great stories.

[Kaiphantom]

Really? So why have you never told us that Scott sees Greer as a fun type, guy who smartly dresses, laughs a lot, likes to flirt and dance? I sure didn't know it, as we don't usually see this side of Greer on the ship. Why have you never pointed out that while Eli considers Scott his best friend, Scott himself thinks he's closer to Chloe? Why haven't you told us that apparently Scott still has hots for Vanessa, even though he turned her down rather harshly in previous episodes? I could go on and on. The point is, we obviously didn't know all these things. If you did, you should have shared, but since you never did...

And how is Greer liking to dance important to the plot? It's not. And you have to keep in mind, this is how Scott possibly sees him; not necessarily how Greer is in "real life." I'd much rather learn who the real Greer is, not who an imaginary Greer is.

Unless you are willing to point us to your work so we can judge for ourselves how good and successful you are, please refrain from such remarks. Nobody cares who you are in RL, and your condescending tone really isn't appreciated.

Ah yes, the authority argument, for when you can't argue the point. I'll say this much: I write anime fanfiction. The very specific anime fandom I'm a part of, is probably not something that will interest you, and you probably haven't even watched the anime in general; it all depends on how big of an anime fan you are. I'd like it if more people joined the fandom, because I feel the anime is very good, but it is highly different than SGU. You'd just have to be familiar with it properly judge anyone writing fanfiction about it. If you are still interested and want to watch, let me know.

Apparently I'm in minority who freaking LOVED this episode.

If you read my other posts, this is what I point out is the problem. In order to keep the show going, you need a majority, and even if we accept that this episode is "great," it is clearly not what the majority of SG watchers think. Only Pathogen scored lower on ratings.

Think about that, and what you might be willing to sacrifice to have SGU continue, or whether you'd rather it die doing episodes like Cloverdale.

Another interesting read, is the thread of discussion over on Slashdot concerning the Caprica cancellation. A lot of what they say about Capria, hints at SGU's issues as well (and there is some direct talk and comparison of SGU with Capria). Some quotes:

"Another perspective here might be that a boring, ponderous show got yoinked because nobody watched it. Just sayin'"

"[Caprica] turned in to a boring show where they tried character development, but it just fell on its face. It was just about at the level of a plain drama with a little peppering of sci-fi."

"It didn't help that the show is slow and plodding, and not one of the characters is likable. Where's the lovable characters that just make bad decisions. Instead everyone is lying to everyone else, the story seems to be stuck in the mud and we know that in the end it doesn't matter, as Caprica gets nuked anyway!"

Just some statements about Caprica that I think are fair to leverage at SGU as well. People don't want a soap opera sprinkled with sci-fi (which is what Cloverdale was). They want a sci-fi show primarily, and let the characterization flow from that.

What I'd like to see, and what I think would turn things around:

#1. Make progress on fixing the ship and getting people trained in the skills they need(medic's, primarily). Instead, they seem to take two steps forward, and one step back. (Atlantis had the opposite problem I felt, with them getting in touch with Earth after one season). In a Kino-sode, it said they were in the Ancient sick bay, and there were apparently some ancient medical devices there. Why haven't we seen them used? They should have had medical techs come in and figure them out by now, so TJ can use them. Why aren't they training anyone else in medical training to assist TJ? Yeah, it's gonna take awhile for them to get up to par, but they've got all their eggs in the TJ basket right now, and it doesn't take much training to teach them to treat minor stuff. And they should have a larger hydroponics bay by now, growing enough food to feed everyone. After a few cycles, you have enough seeds for a fairly large crop.

#2. Almost every episode seems to leave them in bad shape; seriously, that is really a downer when it's pushed at you again and again. No wonder people get turned off (except tragedy junkies). Seriously, the episodes with the best moments, end with them having the exact same status quo as before. How about some major wins? Instead, it looks like by the end of Season 5 (if it goes that far), We'll only have about half of Destiny left, and maybe a third of the crew.

#3. Intertwine the character development with the sci story itself; that means you don't have to do one-offs like Cloverdale to focus mainly on one person. That's bad writing, when there are a dozen characters that all need addressing. Each story should hit at least half the characters, and ideally 80% of them, with at least half getting significant character focus (if you're claiming to be a character-based drama). Soap operas are tricky to do, and if you don't do them well (and do them to an audience that traditionally dislikes said soap operas), then you suffer. Which is what we're seeing. I'm really hoping "The Greater Good" fixes this mostly.

Make progress, and make it often enough. Once or twice a season isn't enough.

[mparsons1981]

Well I nominate this for the worst episode of entire franchise being way way way ahead of 2nd worst. This was really bad episode in my opinion. Completely unnecessary.

I have to agree. This was in fact worse than Emancipation.

[mparsons1981]

Like Atlantis did?
All those mindless action scenes, vague and cliche Marry Sue-ish characters , poorly writen episodes in the last two seasons did save it did it...

I understand that people love explosions and shooting scenes, but that gets old even faster.

Also Caprica was suuuuuuuuch a sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow and overdramatic series that it made SGU look like a Steven Segal movie.

Theres a major difference in your comparison. Atlantis was launched at the height of stargates success. It made sense to have a second show at that point, and audience share could certainly support it. Universe however has launched in a very different time.

And u know what, there were poor episodes of Atlantis as well, just as there were poor episodes of SG-1, just nothing as bad as this waste of 40 minutes.

[Ashizuri]

And u know what, there were poor episodes of Atlantis as well, just as there were poor episodes of SG-1, just nothing as bad as this waste of 40 minutes.

I disagree completely. Family Ties is the worst Stargate episode ever.

[Eternal Density]

http://www.craveonline.com/entertain...verdale-115393

This was another solid episode of the current season, which is quickly out pacing not only the first season, but all of the other "Stargate" series.

Well I nominate this for the worst episode of entire franchise being way way way ahead of 2nd worst. This was really bad episode in my opinion. Completely unnecessary.

The internet yet again shows how different people are!
[edit] Would people really watch Irresistible over Cloverdale? Say it isn't so!
[edit again] Oh, Family Ties, one of the few eps I refuse to watch a second time. And I could have done without watching it a first time.

[Phenom]

I actually didn't mind this ep. I thought it was a fairly run of the mill story, but one that was done reallly well. Still, at this stage of SGU's life, "OK" eps just aren't going to cut the mustard.

I am sensing the fat lady warming up her throat backstage....