'Awakening' (203) General Discussion

[SciFiRick]

The shuttle has to be powered/refueled by Destiny, so it couldn't possibly have just run out. Power failed to half the systems, but the ship's subspace communication still worked.

Why Not? Unless someone can remember or go back and revisit the episode/s where the power, what type of power and what method is used to fuel/refuel then I don't see how anyone would say that it couldn't possibly have run out. There is no evidence of that. It appears to me that it is a solid fuel since it also appears that it is flames coming out of the engines and thrusters.

I went back and reviewed that scene and Scott clearly stated over the comm (after the crash) that he lost flight controls to explain why the shuttle went down. Nothing more. Now during the initial crash and sliding into the rock face they obviously lost more controls since they had to manually open the rear door but the communication obviously survived. Again, if someone out there can recall those points about shuttle power/fuel then this should be considered another possibility. I will agree that running out of fuel is a long shot option but still possible not impossible..

[Misfits]

Since you did not say why your theory is more logical, I'm going to assume it's because of:

It's because I have left many posts on this theory and didn't just want to spend so much space re-stating the same thing over and over.
Presuming that people, like you, could actually read, I didn't want to burden them with a re-hash without something to add.

In which case, I reply with: unless the ships were designed to fit in that much data in the first place. Again, I point to the vast amount of data stored in the Repository of Knowledge; clearly the Ancients can make databases of vast storage space.

As you well know, Repository of Knowledge was a latter ancient Tech. and maybe more advanced in it's ability.

Now, can you answer me something? I missed where you detailed your theory of data transfer, so I'm confused. Are you saying that Destiny periodically docks with Seed Ships so as to download data from them (which is what happened in the show)? Well then, doesn't that mean that Destiny has enough storage space for all that data in the first place? So why are we arguing about it?

I mean, assuming no data is turfed, something has to store it all, right?

I'm not necessarily arguing. I'm proposing a theory.
We saw in 'Darkness/Light' how Destiny re-charged the fuel tank when it got low.
What I'm proposing is the same thing with Data Destiny collects.
We know from visual evidence that seeded planets have a Stargate that rotates on a base.

There's no actual DHD's at the location, you have to have a remote.
We also know that the next model of Stargate, the ones here in Milky Way have a DHD.
We also know these DHDs can be updated all at once.

What if the base on these 'Old' Stargates have a Data storage device that contains the collected data for the whole galaxy. It wouldn't need to be massive, because it's only for that Galaxy.

This scenario would make a data storage device that retain all the data collected over million+ years unnecessary.

You would only need the summary of each Galaxy, maybe a single line for each gate.

With periodic seeder dock-Data-transfer, Destiny would keep the data for a few Galaxies in it's data bank. Once Destiny gets to the last few gates in a Galaxy, it would connect to the Satargate and dump everything about the galaxy into it's device. Jumps to the next galaxy and once it connects to the first gate, it starts the process all over again.

So, the Destiny would keep, let's say the seeder data dump for last 3 galaxies and the next 10.
Only keeping essential summary whenever you dump.

As for gathering all these data, it would be quite simple.
First of all, you would have to get to destiny, get the master code. and dial back home. Then you would bring back a data dump of the Destiny Galaxy Summary Database.
You would look through the database and pick the interesting ones or all of them, it wouldn't matter one way or another.
Presuming that the ancients would have been able to dial Destiny without blowing up a planet, they would be able to dial and connect to each and every galaxy that Destiny traveled through.
Once connected, it would get a data dump of the current updated info of the whole Galaxy.

This would be the most logical way to do it when have no idea how many galaxies you would have data for.

Now, you tell me, am I over-reaching?

As for word of god, he can change his mind, right?

I mean, he gave us wormhole drive out of thin air.

[Misfits]

You've made this determination based on nothing. There's no evidence it ever happened before, no indication it will ever happen again.

I base my theories on common sense.

Flawed logic. As data storage abilities increase, so to does our ability to create and store larger and more complex code using that space. But, if you have a project which uses a set medium, the data storage of which you can quantify and predict, you can design a system which will contain more data storage than you will ever need.

Your logic is flawed. How can you quantify or project infinite?

In another words I need to store and retain X times N. You don't know the value of X and N is infinite.
So, how can you arrive at an answer to that?

I mean, do you even read what you write?

[PG15]

I won't say too much more to this point, because I think we essentially agree on things. I do see Young as an inferior commander; he's not "like Jack O'Neill from 10 years ago" as the initial blurb wanted us to believe. I can understand his breakdown, and it's part of why I argue it's time to step down as a leader, and at least give others a chance.

But it's also because Jack and Sam were in an idealistic universe; thus their actions were "safer" because everything could turn out okay. That's why they had to specifically do "Heroes" and kill Janet, to reintroduce the concept of danger. Young and crew are in a cynical universe, which makes Young trying to be Jack so much worse; he's trying to save everyone and failing, because you can't save everyone.



Part of the issue is that Atlantis is an idealistic universe, too. So, to an extent, people can be dumber and still get survive. It's important to note that Wray was taken over first and she was a civilian, not military. Arguably stupid of her, though. As commanding officer, Sheppard volunteered to take the other alien into himself; understandable if you take the view that the commander won't order someone to do what he isn't willing himself. If it was dangerous, he would only be risking himself. Again, making a rational choice to protect the people under his command; just like Young tried to make a choice to be the one to close the shuttle door (but was stopped by Scott).



Oh, I'm not excusing Rush's behavior. If you want me to, I'll restate exactly what I feel his problems are, and the douchy moves he's taken, heh. But I'll cut him some slack for stopping the ship, just like I'll cut Young some slack for some of the good earlier decisions he's made.



Yeah, I'm really interested to see how far they let Young go, before Scott and Greer really stand up to him. Or whether Young will recover on his own. Already, they were confronted with the whole Telford Death thing, so it has to be on their minds, but so far the chain of command is intact. I can understand why, because that is something heavily drilled into people, especially for circumstances like in Air, when they found themselves on the ship. Scott was able to take command and establish order; that's exactly the reason for it. Stuff like following the chain of command is drilled into them from day one.

Yeah, I think in one form or another we basically agree or at least partially agree with each other on most of this now. The rest is just up for interpretation and that can be argued onto forever, but I don't think I'm up for that.

This has been fun.

[Coronach]

Can I say something really random right now?

So, after linking to that TVTrope page, I started browsing it (obviously), and ended up reading the entire entry for Inception. I then came here and realized how strange it is that I was reading a thread about Awakening.

Oh, reality.

TV Tropes is crazy addicting. Also, this threads casual misuse of scientific terms makes me die a little inside.

[Kaiphantom]

So, what you're saying is that Rush, who is the best Young has in every field that he can think of, Young's words here. didn't notice in 45+ minutes what Volker should notice at a glance?
You sure you want to say that?

Yep. If you'll remember, Rush was having issues due to memories of torture robbing him of sleep. If you wanna believe Gloria/Franklin, they pointed this out; he was severely stressed and thus missing things. It was a whole big plot point. So yes, I do expect a decently-rested Volker to easily catch this... unless he's an idiot. If it had been me, I'd certainly be looking for planetary conditions before going down there.

Where did I say 100%?

Pick a number, then. =) For me, considering Destiny allowed them to go to the Ice planet, with it's poisonous atmosphere, poisonous ice, quakes that can break the ice and swallow you up at anytime, and deadly organisms in the water... well, it doesn't get much worse than that. I suppose you could add some chest-burrowing aliens adapted for an ice climate, though. Perhaps you don't agree, but if Destiny allows them to go to that planet, I can't imagine locked-out worlds being much worse.

And, since when does because Rush says something, it is a fact? Just like when Rush said Gen. O'Neill placed him in charge? or maybe like when he declared the Icarus type planet on Destiny's path 1 year ahead?

It was a fact because all the other scientists saw the database of planets the seeder ships send back.

The question was has Jack ever done something purely emotional. Please try to keep up with you own questions.

The whole point to the question was to compare him to Young, who made bad decisions regarding the LA, something I was arguing military personnel shouldn't do. But it's fine if you can't find anything where Jack's emotional decisions put the people under his command at life-threatening risk. Didn't think you could, anyway.

How about the false info he gave everybody else when he claimed Destiny stopped. Why didn't he tell the truth? The truth would have been, 'I stopped Destiny even though there is a big Red X on it.'

Irrelevant. We're talking about the actual planetary data that everyone had access to, because this whole point was that Eli, Park, Brody, and Volker are just as guilty as Rush. If you still want to blame Rush, that is. You're about the only one left who is arguing that, though.

Ok, let's look at it this way, Let's say instead of FBI, I actually got you a hitman, You said yes, here's the ,omey, go kill Jack. He kills Jack.
Even though you didn't actually shoot Jack, You decided to make it happen. Do you have any responsibility?

Yes, but that doesn't relate to what happened aboard Destiny. Like I explained, that's conspiracy to commit murder. The whole point this revolves around is the issue of choice and personal responsibility. Did Young have a choice, or was he coerced in any way? Since Young did have a choice, the responsibility primarily lies with him. I can offer you as many cookies as I like. But if you take one and choke on it, that's your fault. All I did was give you the option; just like Rush did.

Thank god they weren't in US when this happened.

So you do recognize that, legally speaking, Rush holds no blame then. Good, thanks! (By the way, this particular law is adapted to numerous countries, and the military personnel aboard Destiny are US personnel).

I just love when you guys start parsing words, find some way of saying what it says doesn't mean what it says. It means what You say it means. By the way, are you running for office? This sounds like practice.

Ah, the timless tactic of not actually answering the point, but engaging in an ad hominen affair. I find those that resort to such tactics, have realized they have run out of rationalizations, and thus drop to insults. An apology would be in order, as I believe we promised to keep this clean.

So, according to you, if Rush makes mistakes, it's reasonable and excusable. If Rush makes decisions without authority, that's fine, too.

Never said that. Did you somehow miss the dozens of times I said I held blame for Rush's actions? Do I need to repeat it?

Please don't admit to us that you're a simpleton,

Right then, you're done. That's #2 for ad hominem attacks. If you can't maintain a civil debate, then there is no point to you being here and trying to engage in one. If you can't express your opinions without name-calling, then you admit you have no foundation to your arguments. It's the equivalent of going, "Well... well... you're a... BIG MEANY HEAD!" It shows us you've run out of justifications, and makes your side look really bad.

[morbosfist]

I'm not necessarily arguing. I'm proposing a theory.
We saw in 'Darkness/Light' how Destiny re-charged the fuel tank when it got low.
What I'm proposing is the same thing with Data Destiny collects.
We know from visual evidence that seeded planets have a Stargate that rotates on a base.

There's no actual DHD's at the location, you have to have a remote.
We also know that the next model of Stargate, the ones here in Milky Way have a DHD.
We also know these DHDs can be updated all at once.

What if the base on these 'Old' Stargates have a Data storage device that contains the collected data for the whole galaxy. It wouldn't need to be massive, because it's only for that Galaxy.

This scenario would make a data storage device that retain all the data collected over million+ years unnecessary.

You would only need the summary of each Galaxy, maybe a single line for each gate.

With periodic seeder dock-Data-transfer, Destiny would keep the data for a few Galaxies in it's data bank. Once Destiny gets to the last few gates in a Galaxy, it would connect to the Satargate and dump everything about the galaxy into it's device. Jumps to the next galaxy and once it connects to the first gate, it starts the process all over again.

So, the Destiny would keep, let's say the seeder data dump for last 3 galaxies and the next 10.
Only keeping essential summary whenever you dump.

As for gathering all these data, it would be quite simple.
First of all, you would have to get to destiny, get the master code. and dial back home. Then you would bring back a data dump of the Destiny Galaxy Summary Database.
You would look through the database and pick the interesting ones or all of them, it wouldn't matter one way or another.
Presuming that the ancients would have been able to dial Destiny without blowing up a planet, they would be able to dial and connect to each and every galaxy that Destiny traveled through.
Once connected, it would get a data dump of the current updated info of the whole Galaxy.

This would be the most logical way to do it when have no idea how many galaxies you would have data for.

Now, you tell me, am I over-reaching?

As for word of god, he can change his mind, right?

I mean, he gave us wormhole drive out of thin air.

That still necessitates taking a million+ years to fly back through every galaxy to retrieve all that data when Destiny clearly has a record of its entire course. There's a real-time subspace link between the seed ships and Destiny, rendering any hard-line transfer wholly unnecessary.

I base my theories on common sense.

Which has no basis in the show.

Your logic is flawed. How can you quantify or project infinite?

In another words I need to store and retain X times N. You don't know the value of X and N is infinite.
So, how can you arrive at an answer to that?

I mean, do you even read what you write?

Do you think before complaining? It isn't that hard to grasp. You know how Destiny is going to travel through any given galaxy, you know the average number of planets there will be from one end to the other, and you could even reasonably guess at how many galaxies it will run over from now to the end of time. With that in mind, it would be trivially to design a system with enough data storage that you could record several times the predicted amount of data.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pamgat1Wro
?

yes, just like that - with singing

On a different note. I am getting sick and tired of the back and fourt over who is responsible, at fault since it filed up last weeks ep thread, and is taking over this one. I may not be a mod but for frak sake, take that to the tread on that ep!

It does get pretty circular after a while. All I can suggest is that when you find that a certain poster is locked into that mindset and it's starting to make you grind your teeth every time you see a post, use the ignore function. They'll still go on and on but you won't have to see it.

[mi_guard]

yes, just like that - with singing


It does get pretty circular after a while. All I can suggest is that when you find that a certain poster is locked into that mindset and it's starting to make you grind your teeth every time you see a post, use the ignore function. They'll still go on and on but you won't have to see it.

Ignore function?

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Ignore function?

Spoiler:

click on the person's username and go to their profile. Along the right side, there is a link where you can choose to ignore that person. Then none of their posts, VMs or PMs will be visible to you. It really does save you a headache

and now, back on topic - anyone else find it interesting that Rush just brushed off the incredible find of the gate factory, with all it's swelling music and everything, and just merrily skipped over the 'transported' bit?

[Krystal]

I really enjoy this episode, looking forward to see what will happen with Telford and when they will find him again. And specially how? Don't like much the thing with Rush' wife, he's the character that have maintain my interest since the beginning and his wife ghost makes him a bit boring. Hopefully is an effect of his time in the chair as some have mention, that would make it interesting to see at the end. I enjoy more Franklin's vision, it was more interesting. Definitely looking forward to see what will happen when the rest learn about Rush control of Destiny, I imagine Young reaction.

[jelgate]

yes, just like that - with singing


It does get pretty circular after a while. All I can suggest is that when you find that a certain poster is locked into that mindset and it's starting to make you grind your teeth every time you see a post, use the ignore function. They'll still go on and on but you won't have to see it.

Reminds me of the Justice debate that went on for 3 months or the whole is torture ever necessary?

Spoiler:

click on the person's username and go to their profile. Along the right side, there is a link where you can choose to ignore that person. Then none of their posts, VMs or PMs will be visible to you. It really does save you a headache

and now, back on topic - anyone else find it interesting that Rush just brushed off the incredible find of the gate factory, with all it's swelling music and everything, and just merrily skipped over the 'transported' bit?

Not really. Rush has never been one to look at the awe of something. Its always been if I can't be able to do something its no use to me. Look at his wife dying. He could have been there but since he couldn't help her it wasn't worth the time.

[Kaiphantom]

Yeah, damn those people for discussing things on a forum! I mean, what do they think a forum is? Some place for people to come and talk about things? Next thing you'll be telling me is that we all have to have the same opinion or something! Or that we can express our individuality through some sort of unique tag to each of our posts with a picture and quotes, some kind of "signature" if you will!

Madness! ;p

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Not really. Rush has never been one to look at the awe of something. Its always been if I can't be able to do something its no use to me. Look at his wife dying. He could have been there but since he couldn't help her it wasn't worth the time.

That's a good way of putting that and yes, his lack of wonder is just - wow. I did find it interesting that Greer and Scott were wonderstruck (the music thing, building up) and wanted to SHARE this with him, they went out of their way to have him see it. I think this is just one of the places where Rush is showing to be lacking - he;s presented with these wonderous things and can't see them. It's interesting.

Just curious about completely skipping over the teleporting because to me, that says "who needs shuttles", right? And as they've just toasted them both....then again, Rush seems like he's willing to go to any length to prevent a return home and if a teleportation device equates to a trip home, I can see him skipping over that

[Kaiphantom]

Rush is logical and pragmatic. And some point, he's made himself that way, closing himself off from other people. He constantly blames himself for Gloria's death, that he wasn't there for her like he should have been. It's a deep pain that we've only ever gotten glimpses of, and anyone who has ever had such a loved one taken from them will understand exactly what he's gone through.