The Greater Good

[Krazeh]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread and no one responded, but Telford never told Young about the Icarus type planet, so from Young's POV all he was trying to get from Telford was the location of a random LA base. So even if somehow torture would be justified to stop the LA from getting to Destiny, Young had no idea. Which must make you pro-torture people think Young was less justified?

No, because I don't think Young was attempting to get the location of the base purely just to find out where some random LA base was. Apart from needing to find out how far the LA's infiltration of the SGC/Homeworld Security went and what their plans for the Destiny are/were I believe he was trying to save Telford by getting him to divulge where they'd taken Rush and Telford's body.

[Major_Griff]

No, because I don't think Young was attempting to get the location of the base purely just to find out where some random LA base was. Apart from needing to find out how far the LA's infiltration of the SGC/Homeworld Security went and what their plans for the Destiny are/were I believe he was trying to save Telford by getting him to divulge where they'd taken Rush and Telford's body.

Which leads me to the fact that they would have gained much more by just terminating the stone's connection. Of course Young wouldn't know this, but there's a chance Rush knew what planet he was taken to (could have seen the planet's PoO which could potentially have lead the SGC to the planet) and Rush would have been able to warn them about the LA coming. So even if somehow having something to gain would justify torture, they still had nothing to gain. Of course we'll have to see how the cliff hanger plays out to know for sure, but either way you slice it, Young was wrong imo. But I digress, as no one is going to change their opinion, lolz.

[Krazeh]

Which leads me to the fact that they would have gained much more by just terminating the stone's connection. Of course Young wouldn't know this, but there's a chance Rush knew what planet he was taken to (could have seen the planet's PoO which could potentially have lead the SGC to the planet) and Rush would have been able to warn them about the LA coming. So even if somehow having something to gain would justify torture, they still had nothing to gain. Of course we'll have to see how the cliff hanger plays out to know for sure, but either way you slice it, Young was wrong imo. But I digress, as no one is going to change their opinion, lolz.

And what do you think the LA would do to Telford if his conciousness returned to his body while they were still in possession of it? Pat him on the back, tell him bad luck about being found out and send him on his way? Or torture him to find out what, if anything, he disclosed and then kill him? Are you happy to hand someone over to a group who you know have no qualms about using torture and don't take at all kindly to failure?

[Major_Griff]

And what do you think the LA would do to Telford if his conciousness returned to his body while they were still in possession of it? Pat him on the back, tell him bad luck about being found out and send him on his way? Or torture him to find out what, if anything, he disclosed and then kill him? Are you happy to hand someone over to a group who you know have no qualms about using torture and don't take at all kindly to failure?

Well in this particular situation, LA is most likely going to kill Col Telford's body once they're done with Rush, so it's either they both die or Telford dies and Rush lives. I'd rather at least one of them live. It's the same rational that lead Jack to order Telford and the scientists to leave Destiny when their plan went FUBAR in 'Earth'. Why have more people die than need be?

[Krazeh]

Well in this particular situation, LA is most likely going to kill Col Telford's body once they're done with Rush, so it's either they both die or Telford dies and Rush lives. I'd rather at least one of them live. It's the same rational that lead Jack to order Telford and the scientists to leave Destiny when their plan went FUBAR in 'Earth'. Why have more people die than need be?

So you're quite happy to let someone be tortured and killed as long as it's not us doing it?

[the fifth man]

Well in this particular situation, LA is most likely going to kill Col Telford's body once they're done with Rush, so it's either they both die or Telford dies and Rush lives. I'd rather at least one of them live. It's the same rational that lead Jack to order Telford and the scientists to leave Destiny when their plan went FUBAR in 'Earth'. Why have more people die than need be?

Yeah, Telford's future probably isn't too bright at the moment.

[Gollumpus]

Which leads me to the fact that they would have gained much more by just terminating the stone's connection.

I suspect, from what we've seen of Kiva, that what would have happened is they would get back Rush ( and whatever he had found out, plus a severe tongue lashing for pulling him out too soon) and Telford would get garroted. He'd be of no substantial use to the LA. He would be a compromised agent and might in fact now be a double agent. She wouldn't take the risk.

regards,
G.

[Major_Griff]

So you're quite happy to let someone be tortured and killed as long as it's not us doing it?

No, but why kill Rush and Telford both? Telford is screwed no matter what at this point, and allowing Rush to be killed by the LA is tantamount to murder. So you think Rush should die too?

[Krazeh]

I suspect, from what we've seen of Kiva, that what would have happened is they would get back Rush ( and whatever he had found out, plus a severe tongue lashing for pulling him out too soon) and Telford would get garroted. He'd be of no substantial use to the LA. He would be a compromised agent and might in fact now be a double agent. She wouldn't take the risk.

regards,
G.

Exactly, and I suspect that before being garroted he'd get a nice helping of torture to 'help' him tell them all about what he got upto after being compromised.

No, but why kill Rush and Telford both? Telford is screwed no matter what at this point, and allowing Rush to be killed by the LA is tantamount to murder. So you think Rush should die too?

Yanking the stones should be a last resort, and not something they do before they've exhausted all avenues in attempting to locate Rush. To be honest if you want to try and be all morally superior with your anti-torture stance then you need to be consistent and not just put that to one side as soon as it's not us being responsible for the torture.

[Lahela]

No, because I don't think Young was attempting to get the location of the base purely just to find out where some random LA base was. Apart from needing to find out how far the LA's infiltration of the SGC/Homeworld Security went and what their plans for the Destiny are/were I believe he was trying to save Telford by getting him to divulge where they'd taken Rush and Telford's body.

Why would Young/Jack/SGC/Homeworld Security think the LA has any plans for Destiny? Like Major_Griff said, they don't know that the LA is trying to infiltrate the ship.

Based on that, exactly which lives is Young trying to save by torturing Telford? He may be trying to prevent the possible deaths that might result from possible action by the LA, which they may or may not be able to prevent with a preemptive strike or something...

[jelgate]

Why would Young/Jack/SGC/Homeworld Security think the LA has any plans for Destiny? Like Major_Griff said, they don't know that the LA is trying to infiltrate the ship.

Based on that, exactly which lives is Young trying to save by torturing Telford? He may be trying to prevent the possible deaths that might result from possible action by the LA, which they may or may not be able to prevent with a preemptive strike or something...

They attacked Icarus the first time for a reason related to the 9th chevron. It makes sense they are still interested

[EllieVee]

They attacked Icarus the first time for a reason related to the 9th chevron. It makes sense they are still interested

*feels ashamed for agreeing with Jelgate*

[Lahela]

They attacked Icarus the first time for a reason related to the 9th chevron. It makes sense they are still interested

Yes, obviously, but Young knows nothing about the new Icarus-type planet they've found so why would there be any sense of urgency requiring torture? If he wants to save Rush, all he has to do is switch off the stones. So why risk both Telford and Rush's lives by venting the atmosphere?

[Krazeh]

Why would Young/Jack/SGC/Homeworld Security think the LA has any plans for Destiny? Like Major_Griff said, they don't know that the LA is trying to infiltrate the ship.

You don't think the fact the person working for the LA happened to be the person who was supposed to be leading the Destiny expedition, or that the LA attacked, seemingly with the intent of capturing, the Icarus base and therefore the route to Destiny wouldn't give Young/Jack/SGC/Homeworld Security any reason to think the LA are after Destiny? It doesn't matter that they don't know that the LA are trying, at that moment, to infiltrate the ship, they still would know that the LA must be up to something that relates to Destiny. The fact that Rush was able to even make contact indicates that they're still utilising Telford which they wouldn't be doing if they'd given up on their plans.

As for the lives Young is trying to save by torturing Telford. Yes he may be trying to the possible deaths that might result from possible action by the LA but it's just as possible that he's trying to save the life of the very man he's torturing.

[Lahela]

You don't think the fact the person working for the LA happened to be the person who was supposed to be leading the Destiny expedition, or that the LA attacked, seemingly with the intent of capturing, the Icarus base and therefore the route to Destiny wouldn't give Young/Jack/SGC/Homeworld Security any reason to think the LA are after Destiny? It doesn't matter that they don't know that the LA are trying, at that moment, to infiltrate the ship, they still would know that the LA must be up to something that relates to Destiny. The fact that Rush was able to even make contact indicates that they're still utilising Telford which they wouldn't be doing if they'd given up on their plans.

As for the lives Young is trying to save by torturing Telford. Yes he may be trying to the possible deaths that might result from possible action by the LA but it's just as possible that he's trying to save the life of the very man he's torturing.

See my reply to Jel, above.