'Sabotage' (116) General Discussion

[latvian_stargatefan]

Looking back, they could've easily leave them on the planet till the start of the 2nd season... This was pretty lame.
Then again, I loved the guest actress a lot and the show was just beautifully shot... other than that, well... it's certainly better than "Life" but that doesn't say anything about the episode...

[rimorob]

Really enjoyable episode for me. Great character moments, plot, and action.

FUN Little Stuff:
-Brody made a still. Awesome.
-The return of the glasses. Nice little moment, and something I'd been looking forward too since they found them last ep.
-The little phzt! noise that went with the visual of the Blues small ships getting vaporized as Destiny went into FTL. Made me laugh.

MAIN PLOT STUFF:
-I liked the quiet Young moments at the beginning, with him choosing not to shave and also not finishing sentences. A good job of the writers showing us how he's feeling, instead of telling us.
-The whole Franklin plot in this episode was great and something I was not expecting at all.
-Wray earned mega points for staying in Perry's body. I don't think I could handle that for a day, let alone a whole month! And Ming-Na was really good, I loved how she changed her breathing. Nice little touch.
-James was really great this week. I'm glad they're giving the actress more to do because she is rocking this role. A really nice combination of toughness and vulnerability.
-I loved everything with Rush and Perry. It was a really beautiful relationship between two very damaged people. The guest actress was great, incredibly likable. And I'm loving the redemption Rush has been getting the last several episodes.

The preview for next week looked awesome.

[Azzers]

Ok, I'm going to use this thread and not the rewatching thread just because I'm not sure you need two threads for the same thing. But the conversation about Eli got my mind working so I watched his scenes very closely.

The first thing I noticed was this, Wallace is an extremely true "geek" type of charecter. And what I mean is, they're being very honest with his story arc. People are asking what his problem is when I think the better question is, how long will this phase last?

Here's what I think has happened. The shiny novelty of his situation has worn off. He's now past the "shock" of his situation and while his good humor has not entirely left him, he is now painfully aware of his place. He's in-demand because he's extremely intelligent. But like any geek with a job, he's in demand for what he can do for other people that they can't do themselves. This leads to a few problems.

First, he's socially isolated. Yes, we know he does "hang" with groups of people. But I believe his place in each circle is suspect at best. He's an interloper in every group. He's not a scientist because he's not a civilian from the expedition and he's too close to Young. He's not military because, well one doesn't become military simply by association. These groups want him when they need him but not as a confidant when they don't. The only other person like this (that we know of at the moment anyway) is Chloe, and she's found someone.

Second, he's obviously sexually frustrated. Not in the sense that he's not having sex (although I'm sure that's there too) but in the sense that he's not really successful in finding interested women. At first I thought this was simply a Chloe thing, but it's really not. Yes... I think he does like Chloe. But he's tried to build a rapport with James (see Time) and in this episode it is painfully obvious at the end of his conversation with Amanda that he has seen something he likes in her as well, only to find out that she's in love with Rush. Yes, things are working so smoothly for Eli that he's inclined to find the transient person in Camille's body the most interesting woman in the world. It was almost shocking upon rewatch how Eli went from complete disinterest and defeat at "Math Boy" to interested, dismayed, and jealous. In fact, the most suggestive scene he's been involved in so far involved James because she needed something from him in Darkness.

Third, and this may be a dead issue now. But in Darkness, we get the impression that the rest of the crew is using him as an information source for command decisions. That means, perhaps even if we're not being shown this on a regular basis, Eli is regularly being used. It's power that may have flattered him at one time, but a power now that he'd rather not have. There is no upside for him, and it doesn't seem to do anything for his social standing. He's a utility for others.

So here we are close to the end of the season and this theme of being needed but not wanted is hitting him like a freight train. I say he is a true "geek" charecter in the sense that before being a "geek" was cool, this is the kind of situation that often occurred. Geek wasn't chic, it was social awkwardness. And that left a lot of people with very deep emotional scars. After all, it becomes much harder to connect when the expectaction is that connection only means someone wants something. The good news is, most people transcend this phase. The bad news is, most people don't live in a fish bowl that prevents them from getting away to find perspective.

What I'm really curious about now, is where does his charecter go from this episode on. We're at disillusioned and angry. But this can easily progress towards "creepy misanthrope." The man needs a friend, and not one that thinks his math skills are neat or that he's good at listening to relationship problems. If he doesn't get one of those or possibly a sexual one, we could eventually see a charecter that makes S1 Rush look like a playful kitten.

[Doorlocks]

Ok, I'm going to use this thread and not the rewatching thread just because I'm not sure you need two threads for the same thing. But the conversation about Eli got my mind working so I watched his scenes very closely.

The first thing I noticed was this, Wallace is an extremely true "geek" type of charecter. And what I mean is, they're being very honest with his story arc. People are asking what his problem is when I think the better question is, how long will this phase last?

Here's what I think has happened. The shiny novelty of his situation has worn off. He's now past the "shock" of his situation and while his good humor has not entirely left him, he is now painfully aware of his place. He's in-demand because he's extremely intelligent. But like any geek with a job, he's in demand for what he can do for other people that they can't do themselves. This leads to a few problems.

First, he's socially isolated. Yes, we know he does "hang" with groups of people. But I believe his place in each circle is suspect at best. He's an interloper in every group. He's not a scientist because he's not a civilian from the expedition and he's too close to Young. He's not military because, well one doesn't become military simply by association. These groups want him when they need him but not as a confidant when they don't. The only other person like this (that we know of at the moment anyway) is Chloe, and she's found someone.

Second, he's obviously sexually frustrated. Not in the sense that he's not having sex (although I'm sure that's there too) but in the sense that he's not really successful in finding interested women. At first I thought this was simply a Chloe thing, but it's really not. Yes... I think he does like Chloe. But he's tried to build a rapport with James (see Time) and in this episode it is painfully obvious at the end of his conversation with Amanda that he has seen something he likes in her as well, only to find out that she's in love with Rush. Yes, things are working so smoothly for Eli that he's inclined find the transient person in Camille's body the most interesting woman in the world. It was almost shocking upon rewatch how Eli went from complete disinterest and defeat at "Math Boy" to interested, dismayed, and jealous. In fact, the most suggestive scene he's been involved in so far involved James because she needed something from him in Darkness.

Third, and this may be a dead issue now. But in Darkness, we get the impression that the rest of the crew is using him as an information source for command decisions. That means, perhaps even if we're not being shown this on a regular basis, Eli is regularly being used. It's power that may have flattered him at one time, but a power now that he'd rather not have. There is no upside for him, and it doesn't seem to do anything for his social standing. He's a utility for others.

So here we are close to the end of the season and this theme of being needed but not wanted is hitting him like a freight train. I say he is a true "geek" charecter in the sense that before being a "geek" was cool, this is the kind of situation that often occurred. Geek wasn't chic, it was social awkwardness. And that left a lot of people with very deep emotional scars. After all, it becomes much harder to connect when the expectaction is that connection only means someone wants something. The good news is, most people transcend this phase. The bad news is, most people don't live in a fish bowl that prevents them from getting away to find perspective.

What I'm really curious about now, is where does his charecter go from this episode on. We're at disillusioned and angry. But this can easily progress towards "creepy misanthrope." The man needs a friend, and not one that thinks his math skills are neat or that he's good at listening to relationship problems. If he doesn't get one of those or possibly a sexual one, we could eventually see a charecter that makes S1 Rush look like a playful kitten.

Great analysis! I'm inclined to agree with you on every point, although I really don't see what you see in his interaction with Amanda. I went back to watch just to be sure, and that's not how I read the scene at all. However, I do agree with you about his sexual frustration in general. Also, just to play Devil's advocate, I think it could be argued that, rather than being socially isolated, this is the most socially active he's ever been. In his bedside confession to Chloe he admits that he's never had a best friend. It's clear that he considers her one, and I think the relationship is pretty reciprocal. Hearing about relationship problems is obviously part of the package, but I don't think that's all there is to it. Anyway, it's possible he could be closing himself off for exactly the opposite reason as you posit: for someone used to being alone and socially isolated, suddenly being the center of attention AND having one's first meaningful friendship could be incredibly overwhelming.

Also, I think it would be awesome to see a crazy/evil Eli.

[Daro]

Ok, I'm going to use this thread and not the rewatching thread just because I'm not sure you need two threads for the same thing. But the conversation about Eli got my mind working so I watched his scenes very closely.

The first thing I noticed was this, Wallace is an extremely true "geek" type of charecter. And what I mean is, they're being very honest with his story arc. People are asking what his problem is when I think the better question is, how long will this phase last?

Here's what I think has happened. The shiny novelty of his situation has worn off. He's now past the "shock" of his situation and while his good humor has not entirely left him, he is now painfully aware of his place. He's in-demand because he's extremely intelligent. But like any geek with a job, he's in demand for what he can do for other people that they can't do themselves. This leads to a few problems.

First, he's socially isolated. Yes, we know he does "hang" with groups of people. But I believe his place in each circle is suspect at best. He's an interloper in every group. He's not a scientist because he's not a civilian from the expedition and he's too close to Young. He's not military because, well one doesn't become military simply by association. These groups want him when they need him but not as a confidant when they don't. The only other person like this (that we know of at the moment anyway) is Chloe, and she's found someone.

Second, he's obviously sexually frustrated. Not in the sense that he's not having sex (although I'm sure that's there too) but in the sense that he's not really successful in finding interested women. At first I thought this was simply a Chloe thing, but it's really not. Yes... I think he does like Chloe. But he's tried to build a rapport with James (see Time) and in this episode it is painfully obvious at the end of his conversation with Amanda that he has seen something he likes in her as well, only to find out that she's in love with Rush. Yes, things are working so smoothly for Eli that he's inclined to find the transient person in Camille's body the most interesting woman in the world. It was almost shocking upon rewatch how Eli went from complete disinterest and defeat at "Math Boy" to interested, dismayed, and jealous. In fact, the most suggestive scene he's been involved in so far involved James because she needed something from him in Darkness.

Third, and this may be a dead issue now. But in Darkness, we get the impression that the rest of the crew is using him as an information source for command decisions. That means, perhaps even if we're not being shown this on a regular basis, Eli is regularly being used. It's power that may have flattered him at one time, but a power now that he'd rather not have. There is no upside for him, and it doesn't seem to do anything for his social standing. He's a utility for others.

So here we are close to the end of the season and this theme of being needed but not wanted is hitting him like a freight train. I say he is a true "geek" charecter in the sense that before being a "geek" was cool, this is the kind of situation that often occurred. Geek wasn't chic, it was social awkwardness. And that left a lot of people with very deep emotional scars. After all, it becomes much harder to connect when the expectaction is that connection only means someone wants something. The good news is, most people transcend this phase. The bad news is, most people don't live in a fish bowl that prevents them from getting away to find perspective.

What I'm really curious about now, is where does his charecter go from this episode on. We're at disillusioned and angry. But this can easily progress towards "creepy misanthrope." The man needs a friend, and not one that thinks his math skills are neat or that he's good at listening to relationship problems. If he doesn't get one of those or possibly a sexual one, we could eventually see a charecter that makes S1 Rush look like a playful kitten.

An extremely nice and well-thought argument. While I didn't think Eli necessarily was attracted to Mandy, just bewildered that anyone thought Rush was sexy, I do agree with just about everything else you've said. Especially the conclusion you reached. I have been wondering for the past few months now if Eli would end up going down a very dark path, at least for a while. If so, it'd be a brave move on the writers' parts to take a character who was, by most counts, extremely likeable, helpful, and good to being none of those things. Perhaps he's a mirror of Rush: as Rush starts to move away from his misanthropy and isolation, Eli is actually going in the opposite direction. I get goose bumps just thinking about Eli as a bad guy. I mean, I love Eli, he's my second-favorite character. I don't want him to be irredeamably evil. But I'd be okay with him at least causing problems for a while. Can you imagine some future scene where Rush is doing the 'good' thing to try and stop Eli from doing something horrible? I am almost tempted to write fan-fic now.

[Meshakhad]

Excellent episode.

I rather liked Amanda as a character. I also liked that she didn't sleep with Rush, and it had to do not with Amanda being in another body (and the body of a lesbian, on top of it), but with Rush having just lost his wife, effectively.

Scott, Eli, and Chloe coming back was a little easy, but it worked well. My guess is that the writers originally planned for them to be stuck for at least an episode or two, but couldn't make their later return work.

I find Jelgate's analysis of Eli to be spot-on. The Eli/Chloe shipper in me thinks that the solution is for Eli to get together with Chloe, but I don't see Chloe and Scott breaking up any time soon. Eli needs friends, before he decides to take over Destiny with an army of kinos. Wait, that would be awesome.

[Paladine]

Hopefully we'll get a future cute alien on board and she denies all of Lt.Scotts advances ( because we know he bangs all the girls ) and she only wants Eli. No more 3rd wheel buddy!

[Daro]

Hopefully we'll get a future cute alien on board and she denies all of Lt.Scotts advances ( because we know he bangs all the girls ) and she only wants Eli. No more 3rd wheel buddy!

I hope she isn't cute at all. Non-humanoid aliens FTW.
How sad that'd be for Eli. He has to date outside the species to even find a girlfriend. I'm not sure that'd be very good for his already dangerously deflated self-esteem.

[Azzers]

HAH... uncontested I'm reading a few things in there. Of course in relation to Amanda, I don't have much of a choice, there's not much to go on. That scene specifically, I'm watching his body language at the beginning and then at the end. There's just such a dramatic change in interest level. He moves from very closed body language to very open body language quickly. A change that, say if Greer had walked in I don't think we'd see even if Greer was saying interesting things.

I would actually agree with parts of your devil's advocate analysis. Yes, he IS more socially active and he does have a best friend. But then, is there a question of the quality of his social interaction vs. the quantity. My worry, psychologically speaking is that he's not interacting with everyone in a manner that he feels like reciprical friendship. He's interacting because he's trying to be social. And truly, I think you're right about Chloe. But the problem is, his feelings are poisoning that relationship. And it could be at this point that he's "fronting" his friendship with her because he's no longer being honest with her.

[Daro]

HAH... uncontested I'm reading a few things in there. Of course in relation to Amanda, I don't have much of a choice, there's not much to go on. That scene specifically, I'm watching his body language at the beginning and then at the end. There's just such a dramatic change in interest level. He moves from very closed body language to very open body language quickly. A change that, say if Greer had walked in I don't think we'd see even if Greer was saying interesting things.

I would actually agree with parts of your devil's advocate analysis. Yes, he IS more socially active and he does have a best friend. But then, is there a question of the quality of his social interaction vs. the quantity. My worry, psychologically speaking is that he's not interacting with everyone in a manner that he feels like reciprical friendship. He's interacting because he's trying to be social. And truly, I think you're right about Chloe. But the problem is, his feelings are poisoning that relationship. And it could be at this point that he's "fronting" his friendship with her because he's no longer being honest with her.

I agree that Eli may not be nearly as close to Chloe as he once was, or as it appears now. Maybe his quick acceptance of her apology in "Human" was forced. He may not have forgiven her at all for what he percieved as betrayal. Also, the reality that he'll likely never achieve his desire of Chloe loving him in the way he loves her is probably proving a bitter pill to swallow, especially since he's having to watch her make out with Scott every time he turns around. It takes a very unique and special person who can be in love with their best friend and still be able to maintain the same level of contact when they are rejected in favor of someone else.

As for body language, I think he just went from "Please, leave me alone; I'm on my break." to "......wait, what? You love Rush? Weird."
How galling it must be, that even Rush has a special someone, despite his bitter personality and his moral failings, and Eli doesn't.

[MattSilver 3k]

As for body language, I think he just went from "Please, leave me alone; I'm on my break." to "......wait, what? You love Rush? Weird."
How galling it must be, that even Rush has a special someone, despite his bitter personality and his moral failings, and Eli doesn't.

Oh yeah. That must sting just a bit. Nice guys finish last and all that.

[mparsons1981]

what a shame, after 5 brilliant episodes since universes return, this was such a let down. To have the chloe, eli, and matt get back after 14mins is such an absolute joke, and a real waste of potential from the writers. It also ruins the ending of last weeks episodes. What an absolute farce. This one key thing ruined the entire episode for me, but it doesnt help that wray is such a tedious character.

[yanna]

I'm so happy this episode played so much better than spoiled. I couldn't have taken it if Rush had taken Mandy on her offer. And she was a much better character than I expected although very tragic.

I liked the action in the episode but didn't ever feel any real urgency. And as great as it was to see Wray and Sharon together I felt that maybe they should have had less scenes to focus more on the goings on in Destiny. Wray has courage, though. I never particularly disliked her and she's one character I definitely want to see alive to return to Earth at the end. Though I fear that at one point she may have to tell Sharon not to wait for her forever.

Young was less of an idiot than usual and actually noble. I'm glad he's learning some humility. It was also nice to see Rush stop Young from sitting on the Chair though I'm thinking it might have done more with thinking that Franklin would do a better job of it.

My one complain has to do with Franklin. I really wanted him to speak in Ancient. It would have tied things nicely with O'Neill's experience with repositories. The Chair is being used more and more like Atlantis' command chair even though the show likes to pretend Atlantis never happened.

[metabog]

Perry should be main cast, she's awesome.

[Phenom]

what a shame, after 5 brilliant episodes since universes return, this was such a let down. To have the chloe, eli, and matt get back after 14mins is such an absolute joke, and a real waste of potential from the writers. It also ruins the ending of last weeks episodes. What an absolute farce. This one key thing ruined the entire episode for me, but it doesnt help that wray is such a tedious character.

Funny, for me the past 2 eps have been massive let downs and this was one that I really enjoyed. Back up to the Space and Divided level that I was hoping for.