"Sabotage" (116) Pre-Airing Discussion/Speculation Thread

[Cautious Explorer]

Episode Title: Sabotage
Camile Wray's Job Title: Human Resources Executive for the IOA

See a possible connection there?

If Eleanor is the one necessary to fix the problem, that pretty much makes everyone else expendable. Why is it so important for Eleanor to borrow Camile's body?

How do you know it's at the same time? Maybe it happens after the ship is fixed?

Sure. As a reward for a job well done.

[tinerin]

If Eleanor is the one necessary to fix the problem, that pretty much makes everyone else expendable. Why is it so important for Eleanor to borrow Camile's body?

Eleanor is the one who is needed to fix the damage to the ship. Who do you think is responsible for finding out who sabotaged the ship in the first place?

Sure. As a reward for a job well done.

Well I was just addressing the fact that everyone who is against this episode is assuming that she's being portrayed as some sex starved nympho who is willing to hold off saving the ship to get laid when we have no idea what the actual sequence of events are since none of us have seen the script.

[Cautious Explorer]

Eleanor is the one who is needed to fix the damage to the ship. Who do you think is responsible for finding out who sabotaged the ship in the first place?

Yes, Eleanor's mind is necessary. But why must it be Camile's body she borrows? Couldn't she just as easily borrow someone else's body? Do they really need a random marine or a Senator's daughter to assist Eleanor? What is it about Camile that makes it extra fun to play with her body?

[Shan Bruce Lee]

Yes, Eleanor's mind is necessary. But why must it be Camile's body she borrows? Couldn't she just as easily borrow someone else's body? Do they really need a random marine or a Senator's daughter to assist Eleanor? What is it about Camile that makes it extra fun to play with her body?

There's really nothing to indicate it has to be Wray. It just happens to be her. It makes more sense to use one of the main characters than bringing in someone we've never really seen around the ship to switch bodies and then disappear and never be seen or heard from again.

[tinerin]

Yes, Eleanor's mind is necessary. But why must it be Camile's body she borrows? Couldn't she just as easily borrow someone else's body? Do they really need a random marine or a Senator's daughter to assist Eleanor? What is it about Camile that makes it extra fun to play with her body?

I was thinking that they need Camile on Earth to go through personnel records to try to find out who would have a reason to sabotage the ship. If the device has a limited power source they might not want unnessecary body swaps so just swap Eleanor and Camile.

[PG15]

Update:

The final half-dozen scripts are in play and we’ve been busy writing, revising, reading, and critiquing. [...] Brad did his pass on Sabotage and, Carl and I agree, it’s a much better script.

---

Enviropony writes: “Yes, and it contained the *exact* same line that upset so many of us in the first place: “…happens to be quadriplegic.”

and

Arctic Goddess writes: “One personal comment, however. When writing the way that a person with a disability is described, remember that the person with a disability is a person first. “

Answer: Which is, I believe, why the statement was worded the way it was. It was intended to make this very point.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...-mess-mailbag/

[sideburns]

Episode Title: Sabotage
Camile Wray's Job Title: Human Resources Executive for the IOA

See a possible connection there?



How do you know it's at the same time? Maybe it happens after the ship is fixed?

No, I don't see a connection. The HRE for the IOA would hardly be required on Earth while Eleanor is 'fixing' the sabotaged ship - unless Camile is a superwoman in the HR department with detective skills that even Sherlock Holmes would envy. Are we supposed to swallow the idea that only SHE can figure out who did the dirty deed by going back to Earth to do what? Read their folders? Yeah, like she's the ONLY person in the whole wide SGC - on Earth or elsewhere - who could figure out the saboteur? Please. *rolls eyes* That's lazy writing and an excuse to ensure that it is the lone lesbian who has to switch bodies.

And come on, *g* by 'at the same time' I mean at the same time she's given a body that can walk etc. I don't really care if it happens before, during or after she fixes the ship! It still does her and her character a great disservice.

[sideburns]

Eleanor is the one who is needed to fix the damage to the ship. Who do you think is responsible for finding out who sabotaged the ship in the first place?



Well I was just addressing the fact that everyone who is against this episode is assuming that she's being portrayed as some sex starved nympho who is willing to hold off saving the ship to get laid when we have no idea what the actual sequence of events are since none of us have seen the script.

And you've decided it should be Camile - why? Because she's HR? I would have thought the person in charge would be responsible for figuring out who did it.

If you really think about it - the ability to swap minds with people on Earth is the laziest thing the writers could have come up with. If they run into a problem they don't have the time to write themselves out of - they just swap minds with someone back on Earth who can do it for them. At the same time, they get to add this titillating idea of loved ones having intimacy with their trapped SO's but in someone else's body. In other words: Adultery that is, but isn't. Oh, goody. Every man's (meaning their demographics) dream.

Why not really leave the Destiny out there, completely on its own? NO ties with Earth whatsoever? Now that would be dark and edgy. Of course, they couldn't do it with Atlantis - too doggone boring and difficult for the writers.

[Tal-Galahad]

Honestly...I don`t get all the snarking.

This situation everyone is talking about is strict fiction without any possible relation to real world events. Something like this could simply never happen, only in a tv series on a scifi channel...

And I would eben argue, that this could be categorized as rape...honestly people if I think of rape, I picture something totally different from this.

I can only agree with Darrens editorial and I`m really looking forward to this episode...finally somethin you really havent seen in scifi yet.

[Carterslave]

Joe M.'s passing reference to Sharon as Camille's "wife" is interesting, or perhaps merely careless. Like it or not, gay marriage is a fact of life in many American states (Iowa, most recently), so SGU would only be keeping up with the times if it were to reflect that in its scripts. Then again, SG doesn't do "contemporary relevance" all that well (see: "B'Ori, The").

[PG15]

Update:

Cyn writes: “Deny it all you want, but when a woman’s body is used for intercourse without her consent it is rape. There is no ambiguity.”

Answer: Given that you are posting your opinions on my site, I’d appreciate it if you’d do me the courtesy of at least reading what I’ve had to say on the subject before putting words in my mouth or making assumptions about my attitude. I’ve already addressed this scenario and my opinion is, in fact, the opposite of the one you’ve bestowed upon me.


Cyn also writes: “You can defend all of this to your heart’s content. You can laugh it off and say I’m being overdramatic…”

Answer: I have neither laughed off the criticism nor have I derided the critics. I have no idea who you’re responding to here but it’s certainly not me.


AnneTeldy writes: “Have I missed something? Where in the sides, the apology, or Mr. M’s blog entry/comments does it say Rush actually has sex with Perry/Camile? Everyone seems to be assuming he will.”

Answer: True.


Pol writes: “I’m very familiar with how the sides don’t often come close to the final script, but as a woman writer (and a lesbian at that) I can see how the tone of those sides can look to the rest of the world – and how they – at first blush – didn’t even raise an eyebrow with your mostly all-male team when they were released.”

Answer: We were on hiatus for almost the entire month of July. Many of us didn’t read Sabotage or provide notes until the beginning of last week. I can assure you, there was some very spirited debate about this script and the issues raised.


Dovil writes: “If you look at the forums on Gateworld, your viewers, you’ll see that attitude alive and well. But it has been very enlightening having a group of mainly men telling a group of mainly women the definition of what rape is and isn’t, how there are shades of rape (tell that to the victim), how we’re over-reacting, and that rape should legitmately be served up as entertainment for a show that aims itself at a male audience.”

Answer: Actually, we have viewers on both sides of the issue. As for the group of mainly men telling the group of mainly women – who exactly are you referring to? Because, again, I can assure you that there are men on both sides of this issue.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/...eakin-mailbag/

[sideburns]

Honestly...I don`t get all the snarking.

This situation everyone is talking about is strict fiction without any possible relation to real world events. Something like this could simply never happen, only in a tv series on a scifi channel...

And I would eben argue, that this could be categorized as rape...honestly people if I think of rape, I picture something totally different from this.

I can only agree with Darrens editorial and I`m really looking forward to this episode...finally somethin you really havent seen in scifi yet.

You're right - it's just fiction - a tv show - but tv is more often than not a reflection of human nature - even when it's scifi. In this day and age, even the lowest tv show can teach, show, demonstrate. They can have ramifications and I don't think anyone would disagree that television does have power. Look at what so many of us have learned in this discussion alone! So many people haven't truly understood how deeply such an episode as Sabotage can affect us. And btw? Rape can be many different things. It's not only a violent act that results in the physical violation of one person's body by another - that's why so many of us are upset.

And I'm afraid this has been done before (and/or variations on the theme) - badly - and by these same men in both Stargate SG1 and Stargate Atlantis. Let me count the ways:

SG1: The Goa'ulds are a very good example but because they were evil, it was constantly driven home how horrible it was to have NO control of your body. But when came to the good guys - no such message was ever given. Examples:

Hathor: Daniel (and yes, even Jack in a way) is raped. Daniel is raped physically and mentally while under the influence (does date rape ring a bell?), while Jack has a symbiote implanted without his permission. Both men were violated. Remember how it was dealt with? No? That's because it wasn't.

Holiday: Machello's famous body swapping machine (which I believe the whole idea for the body swapping on SGU came from) and please note that the writers didn't allow Teal'c to shave Jack's head while Teal'c inhabited Jack's body? For Machello's part, he had no trouble taking one man's body for his own and leaving Daniel's mind in Machello's broken and dying body, thus forcing Daniel to experience things he should never have to deal with - yet.

Avalon - Part 2 and the next episode, Origin: Daniel and Vala use the Ancient transporter and end up with their minds inside the bodies of two innocent people in an Ori controlled village. Remember how that ended? Their minds were swapped back just as the two innocents were burned to death. Remember any ramifications for that? Nope, me either. Because the writers never even bothered to allow SG1 to show any remorse or sympathy for the innocent couple.

SGA:

Duet: Cadman and Rodney share the same body - but when Rodney falls asleep - Cadman takes over without his permission. Everyone, Cadman included, think the whole thing is funny. She even uses Rodney's body to kiss the man she's attracted to. Yeah, that's a violation but not according to the writers - who again, thought it funny. And remember, once Rodney was back in control - he felt everything that had been done to his body. Do we really think that once the mind is reconnected to the body - it won't know what went on?

Irresistible: Remember Lucius who used a potion to make himself "Irresistible" and thus use that power to bed women who would normally not give him a second glance? Yeah, that was rape too - big time. But was there any edginess? Discussions of the moral and ethical ramifications? Not even once - instead, it was handled with humor - not complete outrage.

So you see, we do have history to show us that these producers/writers don't have a clue how to handle touchy subjects and, in fact, often consider them funny - if they consider them at all. So yes, I think we should complain when we see even the possibility of such a thing happening again and no, I don't think it's wrong based on history to distrust their ability to handle this 'delicately'.

Sorry.

[Coronach]

So many people haven't truly understood how deeply such an episode as Sabotage can affect us. And btw? Rape can be many different things. It's not only a violent act that results in the physical violation of one person's body by another - that's why so many of us are upset.

Of course it can (and probably will) affect us on an emotion level, especially if the episode plays out exactly as the sides suggest. It may very well not, but nobody has been arguing that this is somehow not a big deal. Rape is a very big deal, and showing it in this context will elicit any number of emotional responses. This doesn't mean this material just shouldn't be shown though.

Also...my other post got deleted when I responded to you about something from your other post, but that bit is still there...so I'll ask again. In response to what you said here:

In other words: Adultery that is, but isn't. Oh, goody. Every man's (meaning their demographics) dream.

Why do you generalize and think that every man likes or condones adultery? Strange gender generalization coming from someone who is clearly against such thing...unless you're not?

So you see, we do have history to show us that these producers/writers don't have a clue how to handle touchy subjects and, in fact, often consider them funny - if they consider them at all. So yes, I think we should complain when we see even the possibility of such a thing happening again and no, I don't think it's wrong based on history to distrust their ability to handle this 'delicately'.

What about the fact that this episode is being written by a freelance script writer. And a woman at that?

[Flibby]

Hey guys, let me pose a question to you?

Is rape or torture worse?

Torture can sometimes include rape, but even without, could be worse. Why no outcry when Teal'c gets tortured?
Does this not remind veterans who were tortured in captivity of their helplessness and pain?
Is that not the exact same idea as why you're all getting worked up about this?

I guess since rape is generalized as always happening to females, it's worse, since they're generalized as being frailer and unable to deal with it. (generalization, not my opinion)

[Madwelshboy]

Hey guys, let me pose a question to you?

Is rape or torture worse?

Torture can sometimes include rape, but even without, could be worse. Why no outcry when Teal'c gets tortured?
Does this not remind veterans who were tortured in captivity of their helplessness and pain?
Is that not the exact same idea as why you're all getting worked up about this?

I guess since rape is generalized as always happening to females, it's worse, since they're generalized as being frailer and unable to deal with it. (generalization, not my opinion)

Its more associated with women as the victims, but its not exclusive to women.