"we'll never be done"

[KatG]

Skydiver, please don't tell me what I think.

I don't believe that Skydiver is in anyway telling you what you think. She took your points and compared them to her own, coming to the conclusion that you both had valid points.

That's the whole point of a discussion. You share different views, you discuss them, sometime you come to agreement and sometimes you don't and when you don't you respect the others right to disagree.

Hard as it is to believe, SGU is just a TV show, and Rush and Young are just fictional characters. It may be fun to identify with one or the other, and to even pick sides and argue your point, but in the end, it's just a show. If we all keep that in mind, perhaps we won't take it so personally when others don't agree with us.

[EllieVee]

I don't believe that Skydiver is in anyway telling you what you think. She took your points and compared them to her own, coming to the conclusion that you both had valid points.

That's the whole point of a discussion. You share different views, you discuss them, sometime you come to agreement and sometimes you don't and when you don't you respect the others right to disagree.

Hard as it is to believe, SGU is just a TV show, and Rush and Young are just fictional characters. It may be fun to identify with one or the other, and to even pick sides and argue your point, but in the end, it's just a show. If we all keep that in mind, perhaps we won't take it so personally when others don't agree with us.

Ahem:

You see Rush as a victim of Young's inability to lead.

and

You see Rush as standing up for his beliefs and 'not caving' to Young's bullying.

Perhaps you or Skydiver could tell me where I've said this then. Maybe it's not telling me what I think but it's certainly putting words in my mouth.

I respect others' right to disagree but thus far there doesn't seem to have been a converse of same.

[blackluster]

I see him just the other way. I've dealt with people like him before and I have no patience for them. I have no patience for the spinning, manipulations, backstabbing. In my view, the man is obsessed, dangerously obsessed with first getting on and then staying on the Destiny. He's twisted the truth, he's knowingly endangered the crew and he can't be trusted. I cheered when Young left him behind and my biggest disappointment in the final 10 episodes is that Rush will come back and we'll have more twisting of the truth, more back stabbing, more manipulations.

I've always disagreed with this viewpoint, since everytime I try to consider it, it doesn't seem to be based on anything that has appeared in the eps so far. Rush only moves against people with specific intent, and in every single case I can think of, it is always reactionary. Constant efforts to undermine his work, spy on him and depict him as some sort of betrayer are the things he is forced to react to. In the one incident where he lied about the planet, he clearly did it for the morale of the crew. He has no other reason to waste his time setting up such ploys, since his concern is about the ship. He hasn't tried to kill anyone, he hasn't tried to maroon anyone. Another interesting thing is how he continually works with Eli, even probably knowing that Eli is spying on him, it doesn't matter, since he needs Eli to be put to work. He holds nothing against Eli personally even when he undermines Rush in front of Young, despite being privy to exactly what Rush has been doing the entire time. As was shown in 'Justice', he doesn't care who is in charge of the expedition, as long as the leader understands the scientific significance of where they are and allows the sceintists to do their work.

People like Rush can even go as far as deliberately making themselves sick to engender sympathy to continue to get their way. As long as they are sympathetic figures, anyone that tries to control them will be seen as cruel and unreasonable.

I find the idea that Rush is trying to gain people's sympathy to be rather laughable. Every single instant where he could attempt to foster such a viewpoint, he proves time and again that he doesn't care what people think of him. All he needs is for them to do their jobs. This is something I can relate to as well. You don't need to be friends with people to co-operate with them. Rush finds each time however, that Young and others try to do things without consulting him and then put everyone at risk. When he averts the crisis, Rush is promptly blamed for it.

[VJC]

Whereas Young has no talent at all. He's crappy leader. He undermines people and then leaves them for dead.

One person, not people. And one who was a disruptive influence on the rest of the crew, hampering efforts at teamwork at that.

A more experienced commander wouldn't have put up with Rushs' **** as long as Young did. They would have had him confined to quarters or the brig as soon as they got to the Destiny. Young was amazingly flexible and lenient towards Rush, too much so.

[Skydiver]

I think the biggest issue at the crux of all of this is, if these people would just stop sniping, undermining, lying, manipulating, etc, looking out for themselves and instead at least TRIED to work together. interacting, talking, meeting, sharing info, we'd have a team of castaways trying to master the ship to get home

but what we seem to have and seem likely to keep are just a bunch of folks all looking out for themselves and not caring about others and there's so many working at such cross purposes that they're their own worst enemies.

[Blackhole]

I've always disagreed with this viewpoint, since everytime I try to consider it, it doesn't seem to be based on anything that has appeared in the eps so far.

I would have to agree with Skydiver. I think Rush can justifiably be viewed as dangerous and a possible threat to the crew of the Destiny. My reasoning for this viewpoint follows:

Rush made a unilateral decision to dial the 9th Chevron address and strand everyone on the Destiny. His action has endangered 80 plus lives and resulted in so far 5-6 people dying and one in a coma. This single action imo justifiably qualifies viewing Rush as a threat.

I am going to try to interpret Rush intent and to verify the truth of one of Rush’s statements; to do so I am going to pull from the canon of ‘wormhole physics’ that has been created over the last 15 show years of both Stargate series.

I have reviewed the first episode of SGU and here is exactly what happened: “Rushed pushed Sgt Riley out of the way and then dialed the 9th Chevron address. He then said ‘It was too dangerous to dial Earth’. When Young found out what he said he asked ‘Why didn't you dial some place else?’ Russ never replied. At this point the Stargate had already established contact and wouldn't disengage.” Rush was obsessed with finding out what was on the other end of the 9th Chevron. He deliberately dialed an address with an unknown destination against orders during an emergency evacuation. He had no knowledge of what they would find or how dangerous it may be. He could have just as safely dialed an uninhabited planet in the Milky Way Galaxy as to Destiny. If he had done so everyone would be safely home now.

From past Stargate episodes it is clearly understood that the energy out of a wormhole equaled the energy in. The reason ZPMs and Icarus type planets are necessary is because the farther away the destination gate is the more energy is required to open a connecting wormhole. That is why Destiny can’t dial Earth. A huge amount of energy is required to make a connection. Once the gate is open all the wormholes work the same, whatever is transmitted in is transmitted out. I believe there have been instances that if the gates aren’t calibrated properly temperature differences can occur and entrance and exit velocities can vary.

The danger that Russ was alluding to in the first episode when he said was ‘It was too dangerous to dial Earth’. - was if the Icarus planet exploded while there was still an open wormhole it could have transmitted a blast shockwave through the gate and damaged what was on the other side. My understanding of wormhole physics is the danger to the destination gate is the same regardless of how far away it happens to be. The reason he didn’t want to dial earth was if a shockwave did follow through it could have potentially damaged the Stargate Command Complex. Dialing the Destiny gate wouldn’t have been any safer for the travelers than dialing one on an uninhabited planet in the Milky Way Galaxy. If the shockwave had followed through the open wormhole the damage to the destination gates would have been the same in Destiny or at any gate in the Milky Way Galaxy. The reason an uninhabited planet would be the safest choice and better than the Alpha site was because it doesn’t have anything man made nearby to damage. He didn’t need to dial an unknown Destiny address and strand everyone there. The fact that later Greer pointed his gun at him and said ‘I am not going to let this guy screw us again’ confirms that others felt the same way.

For background, off the top of my head some instances of unintended energy transmissions through the wormhole were when weapons fire struck the gate and Carter and O'Neill were redirected to the Antarctic gate. Another when they detonated the naquida bomb on a test planet that had naquida in the soil. The huge explosion turned the planet into a ball of plasma. The energy transmitted back to Stargate Command and they had to evacuate the complex due to the very high radiation levels. Luckily after 38 minutes the gate shut itself off. Another time Anubis directed a particle beam through the Earth gate that caused it to eventually explode. There was one instance where a black hole's gravity transmitted through an open wormhole and caused time dilation effects. I think they used a naquida bomb near another black hole to blow up an Ori Supergate. I can't remember any instance where an explosion transmitted enough energy to cause lasting destruction and death to anything near the destination gate.

Some people might compare what happen on Destiny to Atlantis. When Earth dialed Atlantis everyone in the group had made an informed consent and the expedition was extremely well equipped. No one on the Destiny consented beforehand and the supplies they escaped with were woefully inadequate.

Was Rush’s decision to chose the 9th Chevron’s address during the evacuation deliberate and did he have full knowledge that no one would likely be able to return – without a doubt - yes. Rush would have known with near certainty that it would likely be a one-way trip. General O’Neill and Dr. Weir’s conversation in the first episode of Stargate Atlantis made clear that the power requirements to establish a wormhole from Earth to the City of Atlantis (an 8 Chevron address) in the Pegasus Galaxy, approximately a million light years away, would be enormous. That was why the expedition and all its equipment was standing by ready to go through if the connection was successful. They were afraid that if they delayed, Earth’s ZPM might be depleted. They also made it clear that all the expedition members were fully aware that the prohibitively high power requirements to reestablish a return wormhole would likely make the trip one-way.

Rush was lead scientist of the Icarus Project. The unique planet was chosen because of its enormous supply of utilizable energy. He would intimately be aware of the exponentially greater power requirements to gate to a vastly farther 9th Chevron address. When he dialed the Destiny he did so with full knowledge that the trip was very likely going to be one-way.

It is interesting to put some of these distances into perspective. Destiny was several billion light years away which makes it is approximately 2-3000 times as far as the City of Atlantis. Astronomers currently estimate the diameter of the Universe is approximately 156 billion light years across.

Can any of Rush’s actions beyond the stranding be construed as representing a continued threat to the Destiny – yes. The conversation in “Earth” by the IOA head with Wray show that Earth doesn’t believe Rush wants to come home and isn’t trusted. That was why he wasn’t included in the rescue plan briefings. Rush’s conversation with Telford also during “Earth” show that Rush is very afraid if two way gate travel is established back to Earth that he may be ordered to return.

Given what Rush did to reach the Destiny initially, I think the crew of the Destiny can legitimately consider him a threat to everyone on board. If at one point in the future a viable energy source is discovered that will allow for a wormhole to be connected to Earth. Rush may take covert steps to sabotage the plan out of fear of being ordered to return. Rush has already shown willingness to risk 80 plus lives to reach the Destiny, what may he do to insure he remains there? This is a view Earth holds and very likely so does Colonel Young.

The Icarus type planet fiasco shows Rush has the ability to plant data in the ship’s computers and will do so if it is in his and what he considers is in the ship’s best interest. Even though he rationalized that the act would boost moral he still lied and falsified data. The fact that Rush was able to control the Destiny under the noses of the two scientists during the rescue plan incident shows his knowledge and ability to control ship’s systems is extensive. It also demonstrates that Rush has the potential and capability to seize control of Destiny if he chooses to do so.

Rush has demonstrated repeatedly that he may not have a problem sacrificing someone if he feels it is for the greater good. There was the instance on the Ice planet where he advised Colonel Young to abandon Lt Scott because he wanted him to return with the water. If Young had heeded Rush’s advice Scott would be dead now.

There was the instance where Rush was determined to use the chair even though it may have been extremely dangerous. Young wouldn’t let him risk anyone else’s life but said if he wanted to risk his own to go ahead. So instead of sitting in the chair himself he planted a gun in Young’s quarters and framed him for Spencer’s murder with the hope it would force him to relinquish command. He succeeded and Wray assumed command. Rush was now granted access to the chair. He gives his ‘the chair is our only hope of getting home’ speech. Soon thereafter a desperate Franklin sits in it and ends up in a coma. Do I think Rush manipulated the situation to get Franklin to sit in the chair – possibly. If he did then it was a terribly cold blooded thing to do. All I know is that Rush forced his access to the chair and Franklin, whom Rush was responsible for as a member of his team ended up in a coma. Do I think Rush may not have a problem sacrificing someone if he feels it is in his or what he considers the best interests of the ship – maybe. The framing incident also demonstrates that he has no problem covertly forcing a change of command to someone like Wary. You may not like Young but imo he is a far better leader than she would ever be.

So far the goals of Rush and the Crew have been the same; and most of his actions have led to the ship’s betterment but he has demonstrated an obsessive desire to remain on the Destiny; a possible disregard for human life and a Machiavellian approach in the pursuit of his goals. Imo, Rush is arrogant, self serving, and may be capable of ruthless actions when it serves his purpose.

Imo there is sufficient evidence to regard Rush as a potential threat to the Destiny - just how far he would be willing to go if his desire to remain on the Destiny comes in conflict with the crew’s desire to return home remains to be seen.

My conclusions on wormhole travel physics are not speculation; they are extrapolation from the canon of 15 plus show years of Stargate episodes and imo can be fairly applied to evaluate the truth and necessity of Rush’s decision to gate to the Destiny. He dialed the 9th Chevron’s address because he was desperate to do so not because it was not safe to dial anywhere else. His claim to the contrary was nothing but an excuse and an attempt to cover his own butt.

The actions I have presented above demonstrate imo that Rush can justifiably be viewed as dangerous and a possible threat to the crew of the Destiny.

[blackluster]

One person, not people. And one who was a disruptive influence on the rest of the crew, hampering efforts at teamwork at that.

A more experienced commander wouldn't have put up with Rushs' **** as long as Young did. They would have had him confined to quarters or the brig as soon as they got to the Destiny. Young was amazingly flexible and lenient towards Rush, too much so.

I think the biggest issue at the crux of all of this is, if these people would just stop sniping, undermining, lying, manipulating, etc, looking out for themselves and instead at least TRIED to work together. interacting, talking, meeting, sharing info, we'd have a team of castaways trying to master the ship to get home

but what we seem to have and seem likely to keep are just a bunch of folks all looking out for themselves and not caring about others and there's so many working at such cross purposes that they're their own worst enemies.

I'd disagree with this, especially now that Rush has gotten over his coffee and cigarette withdrawal, which along with sleep deprevation seems to have been a major contributing factor to his attitude and general demeanor when they first arrived on Destiny. As was shown in the ep with chair (before that guy sat in it), Rush can actually get on quite well with the other scientists and with Eli, even though he knows Eli along with Young is attempting to restrict him. The main undermining behaviour is coming from Wray and the military, especially with the frayed relationships between Young and TJ, Young and Telford, Telford and Greer and Greer and TJ to a very limited extent. The scientists don't carry such baggage with them and they are fully capable it seems in coping with each other's shortcomings and working together. The chair project would have been the first notable time when all their efforts would be geared toward a particular project and they had constructive dialogue launching into it, which occurs interestingly enough, when Wray allows Rush to direct the scientists more freely.

My conclusions on wormhole travel physics are not speculation; they are extrapolation from the canon of 15 plus show years of Stargate episodes and imo can be fairly applied to evaluate the truth and necessity of Rush’s decision to gate to the Destiny. He dialed the 9th Chevron’s address because he was desperate to do so not because it was not safe to dial anywhere else. His claim to the contrary was nothing but an excuse and an attempt to cover his own butt.

I'd disagree with your assessment of the specific situation regarding dialling 9 chevrons. In terms of the technicality, I don't feel the previous model can be reliably applied since we have never seen a gate address where the point of origin is irrelevant. The last symbol has to be earth, even if you are not on earth. When Eli suggests this theory to Rush, you can see that everything they thought basically went out the window. What that means then in terms of Rush's actions, is that he was truly treading uncharted grounds in terms of their knowledge of the stargate. In that arena, all possiblities become equal until you can eliminate them.

Could a power transfer through an explosion destroy everything at the destination gate. Maybe, so the options are:
Dial Earth, may or may not kill everyone there.
Dial Alpha site, may or may not kill everyone there and lose Alpha site
Dial uninhabited planet, just the people escaping may or may not die
Dial chevron 9, just the people escaping may or may not die

Assuming the second part of each of the last to possiblities are equal in probability, that leaves dialling uninhabited or chevron 9. Considering it as Rush might, uninhabited offers nothing besides failure. Surivival is a toss up, since probablities of explosion transfer remain equal. Failure translates to wasted equipment, millions of dollars and a host of personel on Icarus who would have effectively died for nothing. Chevron 9 is a complete mystery. Death trap and greatest thing humanity has ever found have equal weight. Making a 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' argument, the gain in this case stands the chance to be something not even the Asgard know about. That's why I'd make the case that even though Rush has shown the willingness to roll the dice, I think one could rest assured that he would only be doing so for massive gains. He is already on Destiny and learning about it requires everyone, something Rush is well aware of which is why I can't see him needlessly jeopardizing the life of even a single person on the ship. He even acknowledges that Spencer was a negative influence and that his death may have positively affected the chances of their survival, but it's not like he was on a mission to have Spencer killed or even imprisoned.

Considering the mental states of some of the other people on Destiny (even scientists), they appear to be a lot more dangerous to the crew than Rush.

[VJC]

I'd disagree with this, especially now that Rush has gotten over his coffee and cigarette withdrawal, which along with sleep deprevation seems to have been a major contributing factor to his attitude and general demeanor when they first arrived on Destiny. As was shown in the ep with chair (before that guy sat in it), Rush can actually get on quite well with the other scientists and with Eli, even though he knows Eli along with Young is attempting to restrict him. The main undermining behaviour is coming from Wray and the military, especially with the frayed relationships between Young and TJ, Young and Telford, Telford and Greer and Greer and TJ to a very limited extent.

Yet despite these 'frayed relationships' the chain of command holds steady. Hell even Spencer still obeyed his seniors. I'd say the military chain of command is needed to keep order on the ship. Like it or not, civilians like Wray, Rush, and the other Scientists put their personal opinions above orders. Not a single member of the military on board would have sat in that chair, simply because Young said "No".

The scientists don't carry such baggage with them and they are fully capable it seems in coping with each other's shortcomings and working together. The chair project would have been the first notable time when all their efforts would be geared toward a particular project and they had constructive dialogue launching into it, which occurs interestingly enough, when Wray allows Rush to direct the scientists more freely.

The scientists may not carry such emotional baggage, but it's obvious that they don't know how to follow orders either. Furthermore, the civilians on board all seem far more susceptible to manipulation, it's a scientist that's in a coma, after an HR woman gave the go ahead on a dangerous project without evaluating the risk\reward properly, all thanks to Rush's manipulation.

I've never been in the military, but I suspect that the military have the 'teamwork save lives' ethic drilled into them because on a battlefield it's true and there's no room to question orders; civilians don't have that experience.

[blackluster]

Yet despite these 'frayed relationships' the chain of command holds steady. Hell even Spencer still obeyed his seniors. I'd say the military chain of command is needed to keep order on the ship. Like it or not, civilians like Wray, Rush, and the other Scientists put their personal opinions above orders. Not a single member of the military on board would have sat in that chair, simply because Young said "No".

I don't have any problem with the chain of command. My point being that Rush is not some central destabilizing force on the ship. The incidents I've highlighted show that he can work perfectly well with others as long as they understand the importance of the mission. Anyone simply has to realize this to be able to reason with Rush. Young could have done it as well, but due to some poor (or rather limited) leadership on his part, he could not determine the means to work with Rush. Trying to force him to do things is ridiculous, because as Rush pointed out to Scott in Air, that leadership style is best reserved for people who don't know any better. Young is not in a superior position of knowledge regarding their situation, nevermind on the ship itself, so making decisions and threatening Rush as though he were is pointless.

The scientists may not carry such emotional baggage, but it's obvious that they don't know how to follow orders either. Furthermore, the civilians on board all seem far more susceptible to manipulation, it's a scientist that's in a coma, after an HR woman gave the go ahead on a dangerous project without evaluating the risk\reward properly, all thanks to Rush's manipulation.

This makes no sense. Young was the person who orignially told Rush to study the chair without sitting in it. So that is what Rush did. The only thing that changed when Wray took over was that Rush had control of the science team and could make the chair their top priority without being pulled off for half-baked plans at getting home. The team had been studying the chair and though they had nothing that could interface with it, Rush had already resolved to write new software to make it possible to access the chair without sitting in it. Rush had commited himself to that step. The scientist then deciding that he could not wait, went ahead and sat in the chair himself. I can't work out how at this late stage after seeing the eps so many times that people are still managing to blame Rush for that scientists studipity. Do we really have to run down the list every time?

Of the options they had at getting home as fast as possible, the one option was Telford's plan which failed miserably and which Eli, to this point, still cannot develop a scenario where it would ever have worked. Option two is the chair. Young says no one sits in the chair, fine. It means more work but Rush had already commited to doing it as Young instructed and had the entire team join him to make that happen. Are people seriously blaming Rush for the chair being their next viable option? Were any of the other scientists, military or Eli banging down the door with a potential alternative solution in hand? Did people of the Young mentality expect Rush to stand with the other scientists at the door of the room with the chair, look at it from afar and then expect them to figure it out? How the heck was anyone of them supposed to figure out how to access the chair without sitting in it, without being in the same room to study the chair up close?

I think the claim that Rush somehow engineered that entire scenario with chair seriously has to be accompanied by some evidence that:

1. There was another viable solution to getting home other than the chair that didn't involve them exploding.
2. That anyone could have studied that chair without being in the same room as that chair.

[Blackhole]

I'd disagree with your assessment of the specific situation regarding dialling 9 chevrons. In terms of the technicality, I don't feel the previous model can be reliably applied since we have never seen a gate address where the point of origin is irrelevant. The last symbol has to be earth, even if you are not on earth. When Eli suggests this theory to Rush, you can see that everything they thought basically went out the window. What that means then in terms of Rush's actions, is that he was truly treading uncharted grounds in terms of their knowledge of the stargate. In that arena, all possiblities become equal until you can eliminate them.

Could a power transfer through an explosion destroy everything at the destination gate. Maybe, so the options are:
Dial Earth, may or may not kill everyone there.
Dial Alpha site, may or may not kill everyone there and lose Alpha site
Dial uninhabited planet, just the people escaping may or may not die
Dial chevron 9, just the people escaping may or may not die

Assuming the second part of each of the last to possiblities are equal in probability, that leaves dialling uninhabited or chevron 9. Considering it as Rush might, uninhabited offers nothing besides failure. Surivival is a toss up, since probablities of explosion transfer remain equal. Failure translates to wasted equipment, millions of dollars and a host of personel on Icarus who would have effectively died for nothing. Chevron 9 is a complete mystery. Death trap and greatest thing humanity has ever found have equal weight. Making a 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' argument, the gain in this case stands the chance to be something not even the Asgard know about. That's why I'd make the case that even though Rush has shown the willingness to roll the dice, I think one could rest assured that he would only be doing so for massive gains. He is already on Destiny and learning about it requires everyone, something Rush is well aware of which is why I can't see him needlessly jeopardizing the life of even a single person on the ship. He even acknowledges that Spencer was a negative influence and that his death may have positively affected the chances of their survival, but it's not like he was on a mission to have Spencer killed or even imprisoned.

Considering the mental states of some of the other people on Destiny (even scientists), they appear to be a lot more dangerous to the crew than Rush.

Something you have failed to mention in your second half has equal probabilities argument is the 9th Chevron’s address is tremendously far from Earth. Any gate in the Milky Way Galaxy would have allowed everyone to gate home safely. Rush knew this. I suspect (and have already said in prior posts) that Rush probably decided that the potential value to mankind from a discovery like Atlantis would be worth any sacrifice any of the group would be forced to make. The problem with the greater good argument is that no one chose to go to the Destiny and it is not too good if you are one of the ones who has died or been stranded or family members who have lost their loved ones. Rush made a reckless and unilateral decision to gamble with everyone’s lives when he chose to dial the 9th Chevron’s address. If he had dialed a gate in the Milky Way Galaxy no one would have died and everyone would have been safely home by now. But of course, then there would be no show either.

[Skydiver]

Dial Earth, may or may not kill everyone there.

dial earth and there is a risk, but medical assistance is immediately available, it's a known quantity and a safe refuge

Dial Alpha site, may or may not kill everyone there and lose Alpha site
dial the alpha site and there is a risk but medical assistance is likely immediately available although not advanced life support, just first aid, and it's a known quantity and safe refuge

(bear in mind, in my personal opinion the whole 'the energy would have destroyed earth' excuse was just that, an excuse for disobeying a direct order)

Dial uninhabited planet, just the people escaping may or may not die
less of a risk to a population, but medical aid is another dial away and there will be a delay but it'd be a relatively safe refuge and earth would be, at most, a few minutes dial away

Dial chevron 9, just the people escaping may or may not die
100% unknown quantity. no idea what's on the other end. is there an atmosphere? was it a good temperature? was it a space gate? were there hostile aliens??

it was 100% risk and %% safety with the choice being certain death on Icarus vs possible or probable death on the other side

IMHO, the alpha site or the uninhabited planet(but explored by the sgc) should have been the first 2 choices, earth 3 and the 9th chevron dead last.

If the Icarus implosion was a herd of stampeding buffalo, rush chose to jump off a cliff and hope to find a parachute on the way down rather than find a less dangerous and more certain outcome.

[blackluster]

Something you have failed to mention in your second half has equal probabilities argument is the 9th Chevron’s address is tremendously far from Earth...

I thought I made it clear that the new information regarding the 9th chevron having to be earth, makes the assumption that the destination is far, an invalid one. Due to the nature of the dialling sequence being a connection code rather than a reference address, the only thing Rush knew at that point is that where ever or what ever they were dialling to requires a lot of power. As such, simply dialling elsewhere in the milky way is irrelevant, since the possiblity of being able to dial back from 9th chevron land might be laughably easy. That is an equal probability.

I can take you back to the orignal Stargate movie, where Daniel Jackson does almost exactly the same thing. He convinces them to go on an expedition when he wasn't even sure he could get them back. 3 franchises later it proves he made one of the most signifcant decisions in human history in terms of moving us forward.

dial earth and there is a risk, but medical assistance is immediately available, it's a known quantity and a safe refuge

dial the alpha site and there is a risk but medical assistance is likely immediately available although not advanced life support, just first aid, and it's a known quantity and safe refuge

I think we misunderstand each other, but if Rush is talking about an explosive transfer I take that to mean the annihilation of everything in proximity to the destination gate. "Medical assistance" simply doesn't cut it and if we look at the physical damage, you're looking at the loss of the entire SGC or Alpha site (by lost my mean wiped from the face of the planet). This wasn't a grenade going off on Icarus, the entire planet was exploding.

less of a risk to a population, but medical aid is another dial away and there will be a delay but it'd be a relatively safe refuge and earth would be, at most, a few minutes dial away

it was 100% risk and %% safety with the choice being certain death on Icarus vs possible or probable death on the other side

In a scenario where an explosion may transfer, I take these routes as being equal in terms of risk. Where they are not, it then comes down to how they weight the mission. I find it funny how people can pose this counter argument, as though the people on Icarus were just there hanging out doing some star gazing. The amount of money, time, effort in establishment and concealment, manpower and technology (the Hammond was dedicated to its defense) makes the idea that the project can be laughed off rather ridiculous. The Icarus project was obviously extremely important to someone and that isn't just Rush. He is obviously not the only one who grasps the extent of the scientific significance behind the 9th chevron address. As I said previously, they'd be delving into discovery that possibly even the Asgard never knew about.

[Daro]

I would have to agree with Skydiver. I think Rush can justifiably be viewed as dangerous and a possible threat to the crew of the Destiny. My reasoning for this viewpoint follows:

Rush made a unilateral decision to dial the 9th Chevron address and strand everyone on the Destiny. His action has endangered 80 plus lives and resulted in so far 5-6 people dying and one in a coma. This single action imo justifiably qualifies viewing Rush as a threat.

I won't quote your entire post, but I do acknowledge that from your perspective, Rush constitutes a possible threat to the ship. I'd like to make the argument that Col. Young is the bigger threat. In advance, I'd like to say I mean no disrespect to anyone on the other side of the debate. I'll start off with this thought, which doesn't exactly help my argument, but I'd be remiss not to point it out:

I believe Rush intentionally locked the computer when he dialed the 9th gate. Riley tries and fails to change the address when ordered to by Young. Rush also seems ready for the confrontation that occurs; he approaches Young with a ready list of reasoning that might appeal to the colonel. He knew that no one but him would want to go to the 9th chevron destination. He knew there wasn’t time for two destinations to be chosen, otherwise I think he would have happily let those who wanted to go home do so. He made a decision to gamble with the lives of eighty people, believing that he would never get another chance to realise the pinnacle of all his hard work over the past years. He didn’t know where they were going, or that they’d be stuck there. I’m not going to make excuses for him: his initial act was reckless and served a goal he knew was pretty much his and his alone. I don’t think he would ever intentionally kill someone, or let someone die if he could do anything about it, unless saving them would in all probability end up doing more bad than good, such as with the Senator.

After reviewing the first episodes several times, I agree that Rush was right not to dial Earth, but that he could easily have chosen anywhere else in this galaxy. It’s conjecture on my part that he thinks the potential benefit to science and all of mankind by dialing the 9th chevron was worth potentially killing himself and everyone with him.

In short, he had no right to do what he did, but I can sympathize with his reasons for doing it. People do dangerous, irrational things for the sake of their beliefs. Rush may be a scientist, but he has a goal that few others with him can grasp, and no one else with him (so far at least, from what I can see) would be willing to sacrifice themselves in Rush’s zealous quest for

So, in general, I agree with those who say that Rush’s initial actions prove that he can be very dangerous. From a moral perspective, it’s hard to find any justification for what he did except the mantra Rush seems to repeat constantly: "It's for the greater good."


But, I do not agree that Rush has proven, since coming to the Destiny, that he is a destabilizing or dangerous force. Rather, I take the view that Young is more at fault for the lack of cohesiveness, structure, and leadership aboard Destiny. This makes him more dangerous than Rush, in my mind. Young is a weak and ineffective leader, who is more interested in winning a popularity contest against the most unpopular person on the ship than he is in making decisions. His paranoia and disrespect for Rush leads others to feel compelled to take sides. Rush only took action against Young in the last episode. Young has consistantly worked to establish 'his side' against 'Rush's side' (which barely exists so far.) This is not how a team leader should behave. As someone who has been in leadership positions before, I know that singling out a member of my team, no matter the reason, in front of the other team members is a sure way to kill our effectiveness on any project we're working toward.

Rush has saved the lives of crew members in almost every episode. In “Water”, many people criticize him for telling Young to leave Scott. It was mere chance that Scott was able to be saved. A very improbable chance. Rush was right: the most likely outcome of Young’s actions normally would have been the loss of both men and the ice that the crew desperately needed to survive. If someone wants to make an argument that Rush will endanger the crew to get rid of his rival, then I’d point at this episode: Rush could have encouraged Young to try and save Scott. If Scott were then saved, Rush would get some goodie points from the rest of the crew, and from Young. If not, he’d have successfully rid himself of Young and Young’s second-in-command. I’d be far more convinced that Rush is insipid and conniving by nature if he had not made the obvious argument to leave Scott. Young risked the lives of everyone on Destiny to save one man. That’s not noble, that’s stupid, and I think it supports my argument that Young is an unstable and irrational leader. In this episode, he took a gamble comparable to Rush’s in the first episode.

In Earth, it’s impossible to know for sure if Rush sabotaged a good plan to get home or if he saved the lives of everyone on board yet again. I think he probably saved them, but this is another action of his that can be viewed either way.

Young openly doubts Rush in almost every episode, no matter what Rush is doing. It seems to me that it may be likely that Young is the more manipulative of the two. He gets to portray himself as a hero, and Rush as a villain. Rush is either too insulted or indifferent to care. If Rush were as machivellian as his detractors think he is, he’d realize that he’d be better off to try and pretend to be a nice man for a while. He’s fine with being the scapegoat, which I think proves that he isn’t after control of the ship. He just wants to be in charge of his science team and to be able to ‘make decisions without explaining himself’ to anyone. The last part is not a realistic goal; someone has to be in charge, and he needs to learn to accept that he’s going to have to explain himself sometimes if things go wrong.

Instead of engaging in Young’s popularity contest, Rush works on the problems at hand.


Rush is caught openly in a lie in ‘Life.’ I think it was his inept and desperate attempt to get Young to be more reasonable about the chair. He may or may not have been interested in also boosting ship morale, but either way it provides a good excuse.

When Young bars him from having the science team work on the chair (not sit in it, just study) that’s when Rush goes into weasel mode and starts being sneaky again. Young is wrong not to let the scientists study the chair. If he fears that Rush will manipulate or even force one of the scientists to use it, then he should have posted soldiers he trusted to guard the room at all times, with orders to keep an eye on Rush. Instead he just offers Rush two options: Ignore the possible discoveries the chair could yield entirely, or die trying to get them. Rush opts for a third option, and tries to frame Young to get him to step aside. What happened to Franklin is still up for debate. If it comes to light that Rush forced him into the chair (which I doubt) then he really is quite cold-blooded. I doubt that happened, but I’m willing to acknoweldge it as a possibility.

I may be entirely wrong about Rush. His ambiguity is one of the most interesting aspects of the show, and the source of a lot of forum drama. But the bottom line of my argument is that Rush is vital to the survival of the crew, and Young abandoned him on yet another whim. I can’t imagine any of the good leaders from most other sci-fi shows doing this in such a dire situation, where resources and personnel are very limited. I feel sorry for Young, but I think he’s just not objective enough to be in charge of eighty lives.

[EllieVee]

I think the claim that Rush somehow engineered that entire scenario with chair seriously has to be accompanied by some evidence that:

1. There was another viable solution to getting home other than the chair that didn't involve them exploding.
2. That anyone could have studied that chair without being in the same room as that chair.

Don't bother, mate, they're not listening.

[Skydiver]

'they're' not the only ones.

This is a DISCUSSION. Which means that any and ALL sides of the conversation are welcome. There is no such thing as being 'right' or 'wrong', 'winning' or 'losing'

People here are discussing, or attempting, to discuss their interpretations of a scene of this episode. Every person will view those scenes with their own personal preferences, opinions, feelings and life experiences coloring their views.

There is no 'Right'. There is no 'Wrong'. It's an exchange of ideas.

The goal of being here is to continue that exchange, not berate, belittle or 'educate others how wrong they are'. Cause no one here holds a 'wrong' opinion.

If anyone here can't discuss this without getting personal or taking it personally, then maybe they need to step out of the discussion and find another thread to play in.