'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[Misfits]

Attempted Murder

It's an actual crime, look it up.

Marooning

please shout a little bit louder. maybe if you hold your breath till you turn blue maybe it will work.

[Misfits]

He attacks superior officers, strikes people's names off of lifeboat lists (threatened it, at least)

What superior officer? At most Col. Telford is an equal. I got the distinct impression that Col. Young had the higher authority then Col. Telford.

He only threatened to strike Ms. Wrays name off the Lottery list as a way of cutting off her poor attempt to manipulate the situation.

[Deevil]

And I hope you don't work for the DA. :-)

Marooning

please shout a little bit louder. maybe if you hold your breath till you turn blue maybe it will work.

Dear Brain,

Please forgive me for engaging in this ridiculous circular argument. I owe you more Omega 3.

Love,
Deevil.

[Deevil]

Now that we have seen that Young is willing to be Judge, Jury and Executioner to members of the crew, I wonder what he will be capable of next.

I also wonder how Eli is going to deal with his part in this, because he isn't naive enough not to see the fortuitous timing of Rush's disappearance and apparent death. He's gonna know that Young left Rush for dead, or killed him... and that could be interesting.

[Yusagi]

What superior officer? At most Col. Telford is an equal. I got the distinct impression that Col. Young had the higher authority then Col. Telford.

He only threatened to strike Ms. Wrays name off the Lottery list as a way of cutting off her poor attempt to manipulate the situation.

I've mentione this before in another thread, to my knowledge, Telford is actually in authority over him, even though they're the same rank.

True, but we must expect he would have if she didn't back off. Which would again have him acting as judge/jury/executioner (so to speak) for a crewmember because they did something to piss him off.

[Yusagi]

Now that we have seen that Young is willing to be Judge, Jury and Executioner to members of the crew, I wonder what he will be capable of next.

I also wonder how Eli is going to deal with his part in this, because he isn't naive enough not to see the fortuitous timing of Rush's disappearance and apparent death. He's gonna know that Young left Rush for dead, or killed him... and that could be interesting.

Given that Eli couldn't stand what he considered lying in Water, I really can't see how he could stomach covering up Young marooning/killing Rush. Not enough has happened to change him that much.

[Misfits]

My problem with him as a leader is that he IS unstable like that, and he IS making a pattern of it. He's not staying level headed and fair.

My acceptance of him as a leader is because he is a level headed and stable.

He has chosen the most logical answer, lottery in "Light".
He has volunteered to sacrifice himself before anyone else for dangerous endeavors, his attempt to get off the bed to go the shuttle to close the door from inside, his attempt to gate through to the desert planet in "Air" before Eli's suggestion to use the KINO.
He has led his men into dangerous missions in "Time" while it was dark and rainy on the jungle planet, and knowing that the creatures are out.

He's certainly closer to Cpt. Kirk and not Cpt. Picard.

[Misfits]

What choices? Seriously. Abandoned on a planet with no supplies and no means of escape. Seriously. What choices?

He has a choice to gain entry to the alien ship to determine if it can be usable.
He has a choice to use the gate to a different planet.
He has a choice to explore the current planet for living supplies.

These are some of his choices. Whether he chooses to exercise any of them is his choice.

An option that is not available to dead men.

[natyanayaki]

I definitely would believe that more than her trying to wrest control, but I still feel they'd need to work her into the storylines more. True she's been MC the whole season, but for the most part she's stood around and looked pretty. To be put into that sort of role, IMO, she needs more roles like this ep first.

I agree with that .

He is ruling by force or did you forget the bit in this episode where had he given the word, his military team would have taken out Wray?

Like you said, HAD he given the word, which he didn't. Though I think it's probably due to Young's obsession with appearances. He wants to look like the good guy, IMO.

I never contended that it was harmless.
My contention is that when you kill the person, then it is murder.
When you leave a person on the planet with possibilities of survival, it's marooning.

When left on a desert planet, with no water, no food, now weapon, no shelter, just a working Gate but no knowledge of other Gates in the system, and a spaceship that has no electrical signals; then I would say there are no known possibilities of survival, it is then attempted murder, not marooning.

Here are some links on attempt crimes under the spoiler tags:

Spoiler:

http://www.californiacriminallawyerblog.com/2009/01/attempt_crimes_in_california_r.html
http://www.vanwagnerandwood.com/CT/R...ptCrimes.shtml
http://books.google.com/books?id=vzH...crimes&f=false
http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a087.htm

some quotes:

Criminal Law. An attempt to commit a crime, is an endeavor to accomplish it, carried beyond mere preparation, but falling short of execution of the ultimate design, in any part of it.

Specific Intent

Attempt is a specific intent crime; in order to sustain a charge of attempt to commit a crime, the defendant must have intended to commit that crime for which he is charged, and the evidence must indicate that he intended to act or attain a result that would, if completed, achieve the targeted crime.
Charges

In some jurisdictions, an attempt to commit a crime is charged as an attempt; however, in most jurisdictions, Wisconsin included, an attempt to commit a crime is charged as the completed crime. Even so, a defendant cannot be charged with both an attempt to commit a crime and the completed crime because the crime of attempt merges with the completed crime (one must attempt to complete a crime in order to complete that crime).

To sustain a charge of attempt, whether the jurisdiction charges attempt as an attempt to commit a crime or as the completed crime, it must be proven that the defendant had the requisite intent to perform the act or cause the result of the crime.

My theory here: When Young is level headed and thinking it out, he does not want to rule by force. He wants to do the diplomatic thing and respect individual people's rights/opinions etc.

When he's NOT level headed, because someone's pissed him off, or he's knocked unstable for some reason, it's a different story. He attacks superior officers, strikes people's names off of lifeboat lists (threatened it, at least), and maroons/kills (depending on your POV) people.

My problem with him as a leader is that he IS unstable like that, and he IS making a pattern of it. He's not staying level headed and fair.

Very well said, and I agree. I also think he wants to be liked, and therefore he tries to keep up appearances, and he holds onto that control as much as possible. With Telford, with Rush, the 80-ish people he's stranded didn't see how he acted. It'll be interesting to see him lose all semblances of control in front of more than just one person.

Now that we have seen that Young is willing to be Judge, Jury and Executioner to members of the crew, I wonder what he will be capable of next.

I think it's very frightening, Rush isn't there to balance him, Wray just lost a bit of her confidence. I think he's either on the brink of being a practical leader who will finally be able to make tough but necessary decisions, or he turned himself into an undeclared military dictator.

I've mentione this before in another thread, to my knowledge, Telford is actually in authority over him, even though they're the same rank.

I think you and I discussed it, and we agreed to disagree because neither of us were totally sure...hehe.

Given that Eli couldn't stand what he considered lying in Water, I really can't see how he could stomach covering up Young marooning/killing Rush. Not enough has happened to change him that much.

I agree. Eli didn't look too happy with Young, his demeanor towards Young was different somehow.

He has chosen the most logical answer, lottery in "Light".

I thought it was a terrible decision not to fix the lottery, a weak decision.

He has volunteered to sacrifice himself before anyone else for dangerous endeavors, his attempt to get off the bed to go the shuttle to close the door from inside,

Though he was injured, I'll give you that.

his attempt to gate through to the desert planet in "Air" before Eli's suggestion to use the KINO.

I'd have to re-watch, but was that really a "smart" decision?

He has led his men into dangerous missions in "Time" while it was dark and rainy on the jungle planet, and knowing that the creatures are out.

Who else would have done it? That was his responsibility, and their only hope of survival. And Greer was the first to decide he's going. (sorry, just had to insert a bit of Greer love).

[Yusagi]

My acceptance of him as a leader is because he is a level headed and stable.

He has chosen the most logical answer, lottery in "Light".
He has volunteered to sacrifice himself before anyone else for dangerous endeavors, his attempt to get off the bed to go the shuttle to close the door from inside, his attempt to gate through to the desert planet in "Air" before Eli's suggestion to use the KINO.
He has led his men into dangerous missions in "Time" while it was dark and rainy on the jungle planet, and knowing that the creatures are out.

He's certainly closer to Cpt. Kirk and not Cpt. Picard.

Actually, the most logical answer would have been to pack the shuttle with the 15 people most likely to survive and potentially find a way off. A lottery was the most diplomatic answer, and the most time-efficient.

Unfortunately, Air and Time are not his best examples of stability. As the leader of the group, with virtually no one to lead in his place, he has no business taking risks, or sacrificing himself like he tried. Mind, he was right to do what he did in Air, but in Time he provided nothing but morale.

Like I said, though. I actually don't mind him when he's stable. He's a decent leader, and while I don't agree with his methods of diplomatic leadership, there are worse leaders out there. The problem is that when he becomes unstable, he's a terrible leader, and he's doing that more often than not.

[Misfits]

Let me rephrase: If someone did that to you, or someone you know, what would you say they did?

A damn shame.

If I did it to somebody who tried to frame me for murder, then, "JUSTICE".

[Yusagi]

He has a choice to gain entry to the alien ship to determine if it can be usable.
He has a choice to use the gate to a different planet.
He has a choice to explore the current planet for living supplies.

These are some of his choices. Whether he chooses to exercise any of them is his choice.

An option that is not available to dead men.

None of these are likely to actually give him a chance to live. He will, because he's a main character, but Young doesn't know that.

[Misfits]

Dear Brain,

Please forgive me for engaging in this ridiculous circular argument. I owe you more Omega 3.

Love,
Deevil.

You're forgiven this time. Just watch yourself next time.

[natyanayaki]

Actually, the most logical answer would have been to pack the shuttle with the 15 people most likely to survive and potentially find a way off. A lottery was the most diplomatic answer, and the most time-efficient.

Unfortunately, Air and Time are not his best examples of stability. As the leader of the group, with virtually no one to lead in his place, he has no business taking risks, or sacrificing himself like he tried. Mind, he was right to do what he did in Air, but in Time he provided nothing but morale.

Like I said, though. I actually don't mind him when he's stable. He's a decent leader, and while I don't agree with his methods of diplomatic leadership, there are worse leaders out there. The problem is that when he becomes unstable, he's a terrible leader, and he's doing that more often than not.

Again, I agree.

[Yusagi]

I think it's very frightening, Rush isn't there to balance him, Wray just lost a bit of her confidence. I think he's either on the brink of being a practical leader who will finally be able to make tough but necessary decisions, or he turned himself into an undeclared military dictator.

I didn't consider this before. With a fanatical military following, his main antagonist gone, Wray shaken, and the rest of the scientists too quiet to fight (for various reasons), there's really no one to counter balance him. Not a good recipe.

I think you and I discussed it, and we agreed to disagree because neither of us were totally sure...hehe.

Indeed!

I agree. Eli didn't look too happy with Young, his demeanor towards Young was different somehow.

Eli saw the footage, saw Young's reaction, probably got told by Young to keep it quiet, and then he just coincidentally lost Rush immediately afterward. Not only is Eli a TV geek, but he's a smart kid. He knows what happened, and I can't imagine that he will be able to live with himself if he helps cover it up.

A damn shame.

If I did it to somebody who tried to frame me for murder, then, "JUSTICE".

I don't remember the law saying that was a valid punishment for framing someone. But that's an aside, regardless of whether it was justified or not. You wouldn't find it a crime to stick someone in the position described?