'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[Misfits]

Now that we have seen that Young is willing to be Judge, Jury and Executioner to members of the crew, I wonder what he will be capable of next.

I also wonder how Eli is going to deal with his part in this, because he isn't naive enough not to see the fortuitous timing of Rush's disappearance and apparent death. He's gonna know that Young left Rush for dead, or killed him... and that could be interesting.

You forget that it was Eli that helped Young in the beginning of the sequence.

After viewing the KINO recording of Sgt. Spencer's suicide, up to the point of the actual shot.
WALLACE: The Kino kept recording but the file must have gotten corrupted in the transfer. This is all I could get.
SCOTT: The point is, it wasn't there when Greer found the body, so we know someone took it along with the gun.
YOUNG: Who would have the skills to delete the file from the mainframe?
WALLACE: It's not that hard, really. Anyone with basic knowledge of the ship's computer. Uh, at least a dozen people, if not more.

In the infirmary after TJ finished treating Col. Young's wound on his forehead.
YOUNG: Eli.
(Eli turns back in the doorway.)
YOUNG: Shut the door.
(Eli taps the wall panel to close the doors, then walks back to Young.)
YOUNG: The rest of the Kino footage?
WALLACE: Even Scott didn't see it.

I don't think Eli is so naive. I mean he's 25, not 16.

[Yusagi]

You forget that it was Eli that helped Young in the beginning of the sequence.





I don't think Eli is so naive. I mean he's 25, not 16.

Well, he did help, yes. But helping in the form of "Don't tell anyone about this yet" or even adding on a "I want to speak to Rush about this myself, first" is not the same as "I will deal with him. I'm thinking...sticking him on that planet and letting him rot. Shh."

[Yusagi]

I should also add that Eli wants peace on the ship. He doesn't want chaos and drama all over the place, and if Young (or even if he came to the conclusion himself, which is reasonable) told him the less people seeing it the less fuss, he'd keep it quiet. That's not the same thing as condoning murder. Or marooning. Or even punching his face in.

[Misfits]

I've mentione this before in another thread, to my knowledge, Telford is actually in authority over him, even though they're the same rank.

True, but we must expect he would have if she didn't back off. Which would again have him acting as judge/jury/executioner (so to speak) for a crewmember because they did something to piss him off.

I didn't get that impression. Even though they're of the same rank, Col. Young is the commanding Officer of the Icarus Base. Col. Telford is the Commanding officer of the Expedition Team.

Furthermore, at the officers dining room, as Chloe was trying to cut short Sen. Armstrong's long toast, you hear a thud in the backgound, which prompt Chloe to say "ok. What was that?" Col. Young is the first to tap on his earpiece to find out what is going on. Which makes him the one in charge.
Col. Telford taps his earpiece after the second sound that sounds more like a bomb.

[Deevil]

I think it's very frightening, Rush isn't there to balance him, Wray just lost a bit of her confidence. I think he's either on the brink of being a practical leader who will finally be able to make tough but necessary decisions, or he turned himself into an undeclared military dictator.

It is frightening. He has no one to challenge him and his decisions, and unless Wray gets her feet under her again - with a little support - things are no going to be pretty on the Destiny.

I'm looking forward to seeing it play out TBH with you.

I agree. Eli didn't look too happy with Young, his demeanor towards Young was different somehow.

It was very much so. He's not a stupid boy, and I don't know if he'll be able to live with himself if he lets it go on... but the question is, who can he tell that will not only listen, but do something about it?

I thought it was a terrible decision not to fix the lottery, a weak decision.

It was an incredibly weak decision. Wray was right to call him on it.

I'd have to re-watch, but was that really a "smart" decision?

Like most of Young's decisions, it was ill thought out and not in any way smart.

[Yusagi]

I didn't get that impression. Even though they're of the same rank, Col. Young is the commanding Officer of the Icarus Base. Col. Telford is the Commanding officer of the Expedition Team.

Furthermore, at the officers dining room, as Chloe was trying to cut short Sen. Armstrong's long toast, you hear a thud in the backgound, which prompt Chloe to say "ok. What was that?" Col. Young is the first to tap on his earpiece to find out what is going on. Which makes him the one in charge.
Col. Telford taps his earpiece after the second sound that sounds more like a bomb.

Mm, it's entirely possible. I base most of it off of comments I don't entirely remember from Earth. Still. Even if he's not a superior officer, it's a situation in which he beats up equals/subordinates when they piss him off. In a way, one could argue that's actually worse. While it's disrespectful (in extreme) to beat up a superior, to go around beating on people you're commanding means you're either ruling by force/fear or completely defeating the purpose of looking out for them.

[Misfits]

I don't remember the law saying that was a valid punishment for framing someone. But that's an aside, regardless of whether it was justified or not. You wouldn't find it a crime to stick someone in the position described?

If your point is that marooning someone is a crime, I agree.
What I don't agree to is that marooning someone is killing them and should be called murder.

[natyanayaki]

I'm looking forward to seeing it play out TBH with you.

Me too. I love that the cliffhanger was based off of subtle moral situations and questions, rather than expensive CGI and explosions.

but the question is, who can he tell that will not only listen, but do something about it?

And who will have the authority to do something about it. I think Eli has the respect of the military personnel (even Greer) as well as the scientists, so people will listen to him. But if Young is on the path of the dictator right now, nobody will have the power to do so, except maybe the military personnel, and they'd be harder to convince, and the easiest for Young to manipulate.

Wray was right to call him on it.

Wray and Rush!

Mm, it's entirely possible. I base most of it off of comments I don't entirely remember from Earth. Still. Even if he's not a superior officer, it's a situation in which he beats up equals/subordinates when they piss him off. In a way, one could argue that's actually worse. While it's disrespectful (in extreme) to beat up a superior, to go around beating on people you're commanding means you're either ruling by force/fear or completely defeating the purpose of looking out for them.

Same conversation we had, and I agree. In fact, I would argue that in certain situations having the courage to tell off, or to beat up a superior officer if it is necessary may be, respectable isn't the right word, but understandable, maybe even commendable (again if warrented by the situation). To an equal while a personal situation may warrant it, ehh two Colonels should know better, and I don't know if it's right to treat someone whom you may have power over in that manner.

[Misfits]

Well, he did help, yes. But helping in the form of "Don't tell anyone about this yet" or even adding on a "I want to speak to Rush about this myself, first" is not the same as "I will deal with him. I'm thinking...sticking him on that planet and letting him rot. Shh."

The look on Eli's face in the infirmary as TJ was treating Col. Young's forehead was very interesting.

And after Eli took the thumbdrive from Col. Young, and lingered, and Col. Young asks, "Anything else?", Eli chose not to question Col. Young.

These sequences lead me to believe that Eli is not so naive. Just my impression.

[Yusagi]

If your point is that marooning someone is a crime, I agree.
What I don't agree to is that marooning someone is killing them and should be called murder.

My point is asking what Rush's situation would be considered on a smaller, more clear-cut scale. Alternatively, the room could be filling with poison gas, and there be a vial with an antidote whose side effects may or may not kill you. With a leaning toward the may, rather than the not.

And who will have the authority to do something about it. I think Eli has the respect of the military personnel (even Greer) as well as the scientists, so people will listen to him. But if Young is on the path of the dictator right now, nobody will have the power to do so, except maybe the military personnel, and they'd be harder to convince, and the easiest for Young to manipulate.

Even if they respect him, and even if they believe him, doesn't mean that anything will be done about it. Scott and Greer are both extremely loyal, and I don't think anyone else would stand up if they were against it.

Same conversation we had, and I agree. In fact, I would argue that in certain situations having the courage to tell off, or to beat up a superior officer if it is necessary may be, respectable isn't the right word, but understandable, maybe even commendable (again if warrented by the situation). To an equal while a personal situation may warrant it, ehh two Colonels should know better, and I don't know if it's right to treat someone whom you may have power over in that manner.

I believe it was Picard (who may have been quoting someone else) who said something to the effect that a good man must occasionally defy orders when it comes time. The same applies here. However, in an interpersonal relationship such as this, it does not apply. Especially given that he attacked Telford without even letting him know it was him first.

[Deevil]

Me too. I love that the cliffhanger was based off of subtle moral situations and questions, rather than expensive CGI and explosions.

Me too! It's about time .

And who will have the authority to do something about it. I think Eli has the respect of the military personnel (even Greer) as well as the scientists, so people will listen to him. But if Young is on the path of the dictator right now, nobody will have the power to do so, except maybe the military personnel, and they'd be harder to convince, and the easiest for Young to manipulate.

Exactly. It could make for some very interesting times, and poor Eli could end up left out in the cold.

Or if Young gets hold of him 'marooned' on a planet where he has many different options in which to live... but no supplies or weapons to help him.

Wray and Rush!

You're right, it was both of them.

[Misfits]

It was an incredibly weak decision. Wray was right to call him on it.

Like most of Young's decisions, it was ill thought out and not in any way smart.

This is where I disagree with you.

If this was the Atlantis Expedition, yeah, I would agree.
Those people, military and civilians volunteered for the mission and knew what they were getting into.

These people, currently on Destiny didn't sign up for this. That's why, IMO,the lottery was the best decision for this particular instance.

[Yusagi]

And after Eli took the thumbdrive from Col. Young, and lingered, and Col. Young asks, "Anything else?", Eli chose not to question Col. Young.

These sequences lead me to believe that Eli is not so naive. Just my impression.

You misunderstand me, maybe? I meant he didn't know what he was GOING to do. Once it was done, he knew. Eli still doesn't want chaos on the ship, and without Rush, losing Young would be losing BOTH of the people in command whom he knows and to some degree trusts. He has plenty of reasons not to question him at first.

However, his better nature--and the foreshadowing of his flip-out about the lying--says he won't be able to keep it quiet for long.

[Deevil]

These people, currently on Destiny didn't sign up for this. That's why, IMO,the lottery was the best decision for this particular instance.

No it wasn't, it was just the best way to appease his conscience. He didn't want to make a decision who lived and who died, so he left it up to chance.

Although, by not picking people who could potentially survive on another planet, he really doomed those 15 people as well.

[Misfits]

Even if he's not a superior officer, it's a situation in which he beats up equals/subordinates when they piss him off.

Piss him off. That's what you call what Col. Telford did.
Trying to poison his wife against him. For me, I was surprised that he didn't kick him several times when he was on the ground.