'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[aretood2]

Well said Blacluster! Though, no tea and a meal instead of biscuits....what are you on......

He's on cookies

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Yes they are under military command on that base, but as far as I'm concerned that gives the military personnel absolutely no right to use violence against the civilians. They are signed up for work under a military environment, not for unilaterally assigned beatings as directed by a mentally unfit commander.

There was no imminent danger in any situation there that warranted physical force that would have made some significant difference to the situation. You wanted Young to beat Rush on the exploding planet till he changed the gate address? Unfortunately that could easily assign everyone at the Earth gate to instant death had Rush been right. You wanted Young to beat Rush on the Destiny after they all arrived? For what? The situation had passed and it's not like Rush would suddenly gain an epiphany from being beaten in the face. Your analogy assumes that Rush was somehow out of control in both situations, though I've contended here and in other threads that he has weighed all his decisions so far with a cold rationality to the nth degree in terms of viable risks and the lives at stake. I simply don't see him as being under the influence of some kind of hysteria that would make "locking him down" be of any worth whatsoever. There is also no need to feel resentment over a generalization that didn't appear in anything I typed

One can talk about Rush being uncooperative because he has a right to. He was essentially left to die by a man who has done nothing but impede his work. The military downing tools at this point serves no purpose. It would simply be petulant. As far as the daily life and work on the ship goes, a vast majority of the military personnel serve no purpose other than under the direction of scientists searching parts of the ship. Rationing is by no means a skill you can only gain in the military and aside for security off world, there isn't much for them to do. After TJ, the cook is about the second most useful soldier and I suppose Scott who can fly the shuttle. As Garrowan pointed out, drawing the contrast is useless since their situation is bizarre enough that they all need each other, even if that need isn't immediately apparent. Even people like Spencer had some worth somewhere.

I truly believe that a vast majority of conflicts could have been avoided if people had just chosen the correct demeanor in speaking to each other. I hold no special affinity for the power of tea, though sitting over a meal works just as well, which to Young's credit he did try to do, though his reasoning for it was a bit flimsy.

Tell me do you have difficulty reading my posts? If not then how come you missed the part in my post about how the military does not just “assign beatings” as you put it to civilians or military under its control. But if force is required the military will do so and If someone needs to be physically restrained in a dangerous situation, that happens, Greer already did that to Rush in Air Part 3. By Justice clearly Rush needed to be restrained and locked up, he had committed a serious crime.

If Young wasn’t injured when he came on the Destiny and struggling to remain in control, then a quiet but very forceful word with Rush would have helped, bluntly putting forward that screwing with any people’s lives would not be tolerated. That might have been enough to lock Rush down, unfortunately it was chaos at first on the Destiny for quite a while, and with Young incapacitated he wasn’t able to take firm control of the situation, since then it’s been a slippery slope downhill. But they are in a constant dangerous situation, on a ship which is falling to bits on the arse end of the universe, visiting planets that have a multitude of dangers and Rush has been a wildcard. By Justice however he was out of control. Now before you go putting words in my mouth about how terrible it is that I should suggest that Young was right to maroon Rush, I’ll repeat what I’ve said in my last few posts, I do not condone Young’s actions. They were wrong and crossed a line. While Rush needed to be restrained by marooning him Young has not only endangered the trust of the civilian crew if it ever gets out but also could endanger his command over the military personnel. While a commanding officer has a lot of power, that however does not include appointing himself judge jury and executioner over those under his command and I wouldn’t trust him after this incident on the ship. Nonetheless despite Young’s wrong this does not diminish Rush’s crime who clearly at that point needed to be locked down.

And as for the military, perhaps you’d like to ponder on where their food comes from. Who on the ship has been given survival training to forage for food? Who provides protection when they go offworld? Who provides all the medical care? Who risked their life to repair and save the ship when things went wrong in Earth, oh yes good old Sergeant Riley. Without the military the civilians can’t feed themselves, can’t safely go off world, can’t have any medical treatment, and lose a lot of technical and mechanical support. The military are just as vital to the survival of the group as the scientists.

[EllieVee]

Responding only to a couple of points as I don't have much time this morning:

He is Grey because his judgment may be lacking, but his heart really is in the right place. Rush is a menace, and I ask you. If you were in his position and thought that you had a psycho on your hands what would you have done?

You are assuming that everyone thinks Rush is a psycho. It's pretty clear that not everyone thinks of him that way.

Needlessly strand everyone on the destiny thus effectively killing anyone who dies

I love tautology.

Lying about SGC's plan to send them home and then sabotaging it.

Proof, please.

Blah blah blah blah

Ditto, though perhaps not for the same reason you refer. The reason I give Rush so much leeway is because of the lack of proof of much of what he's been accused of. Indeed, when sprung in the lie about the Icarus type planet, he coughed to it immediately. When confronted by Young about Spencer, he coughed to immediately. He could easily have denied both and accused Eli of setting him up. He didn't. Everything else is speculation.

I couldn't care less about excuses. He knows right from wrong, he KNEW (If not then he is not a good scientist) that it would have been better to dail an uninhabited planet. He KNEW about all his lies.

You don't know that he's lying. There's the thing. None of what you said that I've cited has a shred of proof behind it. None. You simply don't know.

[Deevil]

Setting up Young for murder
The Icarus type planet lie
Deceiving Telford and manipulating the experiment to get them home.
Stranding them on Destiny on the other side of the Galaxy.

I thought you would have noticed.

I noticed these things, just don't read them as you do. This is not evidence of a continued recklessness. The only thing we know he did wrong, without question, is setting up Young. Everything else is supposition based on individual feelings of untrust towards Rush, precipitated by the way that Young acts towards him and perpetuated by personal bias towards Rush.

I do find it interesting though that you don't think motives are important, yet your list consists of things that are very dependent on the motives behind them. IE: Icarus planet Lie. Not following Telford etc...

Eh? How can that not be wrong. He could have safely dialed earth! We have seen powerful explosions blocked by the Iris, for example when Abydos was destroyed the Iris blocked the very same weapon the Goa'uld shields could not block.

We do not know this to be true - so this conclusion is based on supposition and not fact.

Or he could have dialed any other planet. Either way, if the blast did make it through, and it didn't, Destiny would still have been destroyed killing everyone. There is no excuse other than selfish thirst for what ever it is that he is looking for. He is self destructive and is willing to take others down with him.

Sure, that's your interpretation. We frankly do not know enough to make this an undisputed fact.

He is Grey because his judgment may be lacking, but his heart really is in the right place. Rush is a menace, and I ask you. If you were in his position and thought that you had a psycho on your hands what would you have done?

I don't think he's a psycho, so your point here is moot.

Blah blah blah blah
I couldn't care less about excuses. He knows right from wrong, he KNEW (If not then he is not a good scientist) that it would have been better to dail an uninhabited planet. He KNEW about all his lies.

If you think that was an excuse, you missed the entire point. We do not know what he knew, we do not know enough about the Icarus planet to make any definitive conclusions... thus there is no reason to suggest with any kind of accuracy that Rush acted in the wrong way.

You have a very depressing and pessimistic view on humanity then.

It's depressing and pessimistic to believe that not everyone is purely good and evil? That is something I frankly do not understand...

[Saquist]

I noticed these things, just don't read them as you do. This is not evidence of a continued recklessness. The only thing we know he did wrong, without question, is setting up Young. Everything else is supposition based on individual feelings of untrust towards Rush, precipitated by the way that Young acts towards him and perpetuated by personal bias towards Rush..

I see things as the really are.
His actions have 3 times placed people in danger... 4 times suspecting of being self serving. Of course it's evidnce. It fits the definition of evidence even if you reject the evidence. It may not PROVE that he's reckless but it certainly supports it.

Giving a sociopath the time to do further harm by studying instead of acting on the abundant information you do have...
reckless. Rush should have been confined the moment he put them on the other side of the universe.

[GateGipsy]

Very interesting discussion here.

Saquist, I have to say that there's no evidence that Rush is a sociopath. I don't think he is. I think he is, at the moment at any rate, a very focused scientist who has completely lost perspective and is very selfish to his own goal (that of attaining the knowledge on the Destiny).

I do believe that he dialled the ship on purpose, that he could have dialled elswhere but that he used the confusion of the moment to grab his chance. I believe it was most likely a split second desicion based on his deepest desire rather than something he'd have done if he'd had time to really think it through. But I still believe that he did it on purpose.

However, I am also very intrigued in the way we've been led to view Rush in a certain light because here we have to rely on the reliability of the narrator - in this case Young. And do we trust Young's reliability? He came up to Rush all magnamonious and friendly - Here have some extra rations - and by doing it in front of the other team members like that it made it seem even more like he was rewarding a puppy dog. It was clumsy, and awkward, and anyone who knows Rush at all will know how he'd react in that situation - not just throwing it back in his face but by undermining his effort, making Young look like the muppet.

Young could have gained control over Rush, and removed any trust the crew might have felt towards Rush forever, simply by showing them all that Kino footage.

The crucial question is, why didn't he?

[Deevil]

I see things as the really are.

His actions have 3 times placed people in danger... 4 times suspecting of being self serving. Of course it's evidnce. It fits the definition of evidence even if you reject the evidence. It may not PROVE that he's reckless but it certainly supports it.

Okay, perhaps I should be clear. I do not buy this as evidence to his continued recklessness. For me I need a little more proof as to whether or not his actions were valid or not. I do not know as we do not have enough information to draw on to make a definitive conclusion here. That's why I am 'defending' Rush. There is a serious lack of info and more then a shadow of a doubt that his actions were indeed valid and required.

Giving a sociopath the time to do further harm by studying instead of acting on the abundant information you do have...
reckless. Rush should have been confined the moment he put them on the other side of the universe.

I do not believe Rush is a sociopath - nor do I believe he should have been confined. Suspecting he acted in a way that is self serving is by no means proof that he did, so imprisoning him on nothing but an impression would be stupid - especially considering he is one of the few people on board who understands the tech.

GateGypsy I agree that it's interesting how we have been lead to view Rush... We are def. not getting a full picture and this very much clouds the way his character can be viewed (and why their is so much debate).

I think the reason that Young didn't show the crew the kino footage is because a) he didn't think about it, b) he is a moron, c) he let his tempter get the best of him, d)he thinks he has the right to beat and leave people to die or e) he is mentally unfit.

I include 'e' simply because as the season has progressed he has become more and more mentally unhinged. I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with his head injury or whether or not he was suffering from some kind of illness in the flashback we saw in the first episode... the one he collapsed in.

I really don't think anything is as black and white as it appears to be with either Rush or Young... and I suspect there may even be a deeper history between them. I am really interested to see their relationship play out.

[blackluster]

Tell me do you have difficulty reading my posts? If not then how come you missed the part in my post about how the military does not just “assign beatings” as you put it to civilians or military under its control. But if force is required the military will do so and If someone needs to be physically restrained in a dangerous situation, that happens, Greer already did that to Rush in Air Part 3. By Justice clearly Rush needed to be restrained and locked up, he had committed a serious crime.

Yes, clearly I did misread your posts, since it seemed to me that you were advocating physical force of a violent nature against people on the presumption that they had no idea what they were doing and needed to be snapped back to reality. You can refer to my second paragraph from the section you quoted since I don't feel like repeating myself.

If Young wasn’t injured when he came on the Destiny and struggling to remain in control, then a quiet but very forceful word with Rush would have helped, bluntly putting forward that screwing with any people’s lives would not be tolerated...

A stern word is very different to physical force, though in that case Young would most likely have to come through with solid reasoning as to why he thinks Rush was wrong for the decision he made, since as I've already asserted, I don't believe it was made on a whim.

As for the rest of your point, again, I don't believe Rush was ever out of control. You'll notice as well that he explained to Young rather clearly exactly why he did what he did. Young was thus presented with a free and fair opportunity to counter his reasoning. As you correctly pointed out, the marooning was wrong and I'll go further and say that beating him or restraining Rush is equally wrong, because it doesn't address the core problem. Rush was never on a campaign against Young, but against his shaky leadership. If Young had any intelligence, he could have properly assessed his own short comings, his misgivings about the mission and thus Rush's motivations, which would have lead to a workable understanding between Young and Rush. Instead, he chooses to headbutt Rush, which confirms all Rush's concerns about Young's leadership and resolves him to removeYoung from said leadership. There was never any need to "lock down", beat or restrain Rush, if only Young had been more observant.

And as for the military, perhaps you’d like to ponder on where their food comes from. Who on the ship has been given survival training to forage for food? Who provides protection when they go offworld? Who provides all the medical care? Who risked their life to repair and save the ship when things went wrong in Earth, oh yes good old Sergeant Riley. Without the military the civilians can’t feed themselves, can’t safely go off world, can’t have any medical treatment, and lose a lot of technical and mechanical support. The military are just as vital to the survival of the group as the scientists.

Their food comes from ration packs and off world searches. You feel that all food on the Destiny is exclusive property of the military?

They don't forage for food, they run scans from the Destiny. They know where the vegetation is before they step foot through the stargate (See Justice). The scientists also conduct the comparisons on vegetation they discover (see Time). You'd have to convince me that military survival training gives soldiers any sort of insight into alien plant life.

The military provides protection when they go offworld, I think I duly acknowledged that. Protection isn't always necessary though.

I duly acknowledged TJ's medical expertise.

Sergeant Riley was not vital to that mission, since they already have a mechanical engineer (who was the other person in a suit). Riley didn't save the ship by himself and you'd do well to convince me that he was somehow solely responsible for identifying where their focus had to go in repairing the power grid. Rush understand the system better than he does. Interestingly as well, as I recall he was trying to setup the power grid for weapons fire as per Telford's "risk everyone's lives then cut and run" plan, something Rush warned them not to do and which Riley ultimately paid the highest price.

It's kind of weird how many risky out of control schemes Rush had to save the crew from when you think about it, since he is supposed to be the one who is most the reckless with people's lives.

Young could have gained control over Rush, and removed any trust the crew might have felt towards Rush forever, simply by showing them all that Kino footage.

The crucial question is, why didn't he?

Well my off-the-cuff theory would be that Young is out of his mind, but of course, that would be too simple. He can't know that Rush will return so I doubt it is leverage. The other option then might be that the kino footage actually proves that Rush had no part in framing Young, but that would be speculation and Dr. Rush is having none of it

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Yes, clearly I did misread your posts, since it seemed to me that you were advocating physical force of a violent nature against people on the presumption that they had no idea what they were doing and needed to be snapped back to reality. You can refer to my second paragraph from the section you quoted since I don't feel like repeating myself.

A stern word is very different to physical force, though in that case Young would most likely have to come through with solid reasoning as to why he thinks Rush was wrong for the decision he made, since as I've already asserted, I don't believe it was made on a whim.

As for the rest of your point, again, I don't believe Rush was ever out of control. You'll notice as well that he explained to Young rather clearly exactly why he did what he did. Young was thus presented with a free and fair opportunity to counter his reasoning. As you correctly pointed out, the marooning was wrong and I'll go further and say that beating him or restraining Rush is equally wrong, because it doesn't address the core problem. Rush was never on a campaign against Young, but against his shaky leadership. If Young had any intelligence, he could have properly assessed his own short comings, his misgivings about the mission and thus Rush's motivations, which would have lead to a workable understanding between Young and Rush. Instead, he chooses to headbutt Rush, which confirms all Rush's concerns about Young's leadership and resolves him to removeYoung from said leadership. There was never any need to "lock down", beat or restrain Rush, if only Young had been more observant.

Their food comes from ration packs and off world searches. You feel that all food on the Destiny is exclusive property of the military?

They don't forage for food, they run scans from the Destiny. They know where the vegetation is before they step foot through the stargate (See Justice). The scientists also conduct the comparisons on vegetation they discover (see Time). You'd have to convince me that military survival training gives soldiers any sort of insight into alien plant life.

The military provides protection when they go offworld, I think I duly acknowledged that. Protection isn't always necessary though.

I duly acknowledged TJ's medical expertise.

Sergeant Riley was not vital to that mission, since they already have a mechanical engineer (who was the other person in a suit). Riley didn't save the ship by himself and you'd do well to convince me that he was somehow solely responsible for identifying where their focus had to go in repairing the power grid. Rush understand the system better than he does. Interestingly as well, as I recall he was trying to setup the power grid for weapons fire as per Telford's "risk everyone's lives then cut and run" plan, something Rush warned them not to do and which Riley ultimately paid the highest price.

It's kind of weird how many risky out of control schemes Rush had to save the crew from when you think about it, since he is supposed to be the one who is most the reckless with people's lives.

No matter how you dress it up, Rush committed a serious crime. If Rush had problems with Young’s leadership, you don’t go around addressing the problem by framing him for murder. You know what they’d call Rush’s crime in reality, perjury and subverting the course of justice. Those crimes tend to carry weighty sentences as well. It was also an incredibly stupid thing to do, people might be distrusting of Young but who wants to trust a b*stard who will try and frame you for murder when he has doubts about your skills. You can’t trust to work with someone after they’ve done something like that and condoning Rush’s actions are wrong. If he had doubts about Young’s command then he could have talked to him, he could have talked to others on the ship, but no he decided instead to frame Young for murder, proving without a shadow of a doubt that he couldn’t be trusted and turning the crew in on itself while distrust and division ran rampant. Well done Rush, brilliant work there.

He also completely miscalculated the military psyche. If he thought the military personnel would ever trust him or want to work with him again, he clearly has no clue how the military thinks. After this there was never going to be a working relationship between Rush and Young, no matter how rational Young would be. The military value above all else trust, trust that the man or women next to you has your back, that they can trust you and you can trust them, completely and utterly with your life in their hands. No one in the military would trust Rush a jot after what he did, you don’t trust a person who, if they have doubts about your command rather than addressing their problems rationally, instead plots, schemes and frames you. That could have Rush up on a charge for Mutiny if he was military. Despite the fact he is a civilian no military person would trust him after that. There are ways to deal with doubts about CO ability and then there is breaking the trust of the entire unit, someone does that and your working relationship with them ends.

As for the foraging for food issue, they can scan planets to see if they have plant life. When they get there though, as seen in Time they don’t have any fancy equipment to check which plants are edible or not. How will they know then, well they’ll have to rely on the survival training of the military personnel who are taught how to try and tell which plants will be more likely to be poisonous and which likely aren’t.

And they might have civilian engineers on board but it was the military one who risked his life to save the ship.

[Stewart5]

Giving a sociopath the time to do further harm by studying instead of acting on the abundant information you do have...

prove that with any definition of the term sociopath, and evidence from the show please.

Despite the fact he is a civilian no military person would trust him after that. There are ways to deal with doubts about CO ability and then there is breaking the trust of the entire unit, someone does that and your working relationship with them ends. .

Eh, no amount of gentle persuasion would have worked either. Look at the military's actions whene there was actual, strong evidence that it had been Young who shot Spencer. They were still willing to attack Wray and the civilians to get him out of the tribuneral, at a point when there (we know it wasn't now, before you get pedantic) was actual evidence and Young was a suspect. So Nothing any civilian could have said to those loyal-unto-death retard Marines would have made the slightest difference.

As for the foraging for food issue, they can scan planets to see if they have plant life. When they get there though, as seen in Time they don’t have any fancy equipment to check which plants are edible or not. How will they know then, well they’ll have to rely on the survival training of the military personnel who are taught how to try and tell which plants will be more likely to be poisonous and which likely aren’t. .

Yes, because beasic survival courses ON EARTH teach you which alien fruits are likely to be poisonous.
Without any knowledge of the environmetn and its fauna/flora history, you can't gauge what will be safe or not. It's different here on Earth when you can teach from previous knowledge, but when you do not have a clue, no amount of Earth bound training will help.
Sure, that flower looks lovely! the fruit growing from it is just like an apple! Let's eat it. Oh, it appears that this fruit is highly toxic as the animals on this world who would eat it destroy the seeds in their guts instead of passing them and fertilising them....whoops, how were we to know...now everyones dead.....

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

prove that with any definition of the term sociopath, and evidence from the show please.



Eh, no amount of gentle persuasion would have worked either. Look at the military's actions whene there was actual, strong evidence that it had been Young who shot Spencer. They were still willing to attack Wray and the civilians to get him out of the tribuneral, at a point when there (we know it wasn't now, before you get pedantic) was actual evidence and Young was a suspect. So Nothing any civilian could have said to those loyal-unto-death retard Marines would have made the slightest difference.





Yes, because beasic survival courses ON EARTH teach you which alien fruits are likely to be poisonous.
Without any knowledge of the environmetn and its fauna/flora history, you can't gauge what will be safe or not. It's different here on Earth when you can teach from previous knowledge, but when you do not have a clue, no amount of Earth bound training will help.
Sure, that flower looks lovely! the fruit growing from it is just like an apple! Let's eat it. Oh, it appears that this fruit is highly toxic as the animals on this world who would eat it destroy the seeds in their guts instead of passing them and fertilising them....whoops, how were we to know...now everyones dead.....

Err firstly Garrowan is that really you? because a. Why is the stuff you quoted by me said to be from blackluster, and B your the last person I’d expect to call Marines retards.

Besides if you want to talk retarded how about the fact that anyone would believe that Young wasn’t being framed when the murder weapon was easily found in his room. The fact was there wasn’t any strong evidence to convict Young and the Military were getting pissed that a sham trial was trying to crucify there CO. In a normal murder trial you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused did it, with the quarters easily accessible to everyone and with scores of other people without alibi’s, some with a lot of motive to kill Spencer, as well as Young’s acquiesce to there being an investigation, would mean that in a real murder trial you’d have nothing to prosecute Young with. There was no hard evidence and Wray was just using the trial for her own gain, that’s why the military personnel were so angry.

As for Earth based survival courses being useful, it doesn’t consist of being given a list of plants that are edible. That wouldn’t work, soldiers don’t have the time or luxury to memorise every plant they might come across, especially in more exotic areas, what they can be taught though is tell tale signs that plants might be poisonous or not, and where you’re more likely to find the edible plants and sources of water. Sure the alien biology may be different, but so far the planets we’ve seen them go to with plant life would seem to have carbon based, chlorophyll reliant plant life, and the training to at least try to identify safe surces of food and water will be very helpful.

[Stewart5]

Err firstly Garrowan is that really you? because a. Why is the stuff you quoted by me said to be from blackluster, and B your the last person I’d expect to call Marines retards.

Problem fixed, my PC took a brain fart

Besides if you want to talk retarded how about the fact that anyone would believe that Young wasn’t being framed when the murder weapon was easily found in his room. The fact was there wasn’t any strong evidence to convict Young and the Military were getting pissed that a sham trial was trying to crucify there CO. In a normal murder trial you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused did it, with the quarters easily accessible to everyone and with scores of other people without alibi’s, some with a lot of motive to kill Spencer, as well as Young’s acquiesce to there being an investigation, would mean that in a real murder trial you’d have nothing to prosecute Young with. There was no hard evidence and Wray was just using the trial for her own gain, that’s why the military personnel were so angry.

But the fact still remains that they weren't willing to sit and see how things panned out first, they were ready to go in guns blazing because he was their officer and he liked them more than the civilians.
I said those marines were 'tards.

As for Earth based survival courses being useful, it doesn’t consist of being given a list of plants that are edible. That wouldn’t work, soldiers don’t have the time or luxury to memorise every plant they might come across, especially in more exotic areas, what they can be taught though is tell tale signs that plants might be poisonous or not, and where you’re more likely to find the edible plants and sources of water. Sure the alien biology may be different, but so far the planets we’ve seen them go to with plant life would seem to have carbon based, chlorophyll reliant plant life, and the training to at least try to identify safe surces of food and water will be very helpful.

I know how the courses work. But you DO get told a small selection of ones they know are safe, and then you are taught to judge other potential food safely from knowledge of the environment you are in. You can't have area knowledge no matter how much it looks like a jungle-in-a-studio or a quarry in Vancouever

[Saquist]

Yes, ma'am eye-rolling aside, of course.

Okay, perhaps I should be clear. I do not buy this as evidence to his continued recklessness. For me I need a little more proof as to whether or not his actions were valid or not. I do not know as we do not have enough information to draw on to make a definitive conclusion here. That's why I am 'defending' Rush. There is a serious lack of info and more then a shadow of a doubt that his actions were indeed valid and required.

Proof is a very, very difficult requirement. Motive is almost impossible to "prove"
No Law up standing court in the world can prove a motive. Scientifically it's far from pragmatic. Really it can only be proven by confession. I can't prove Rushes motives were reckless. I can only use deductive reason from the exhibited behavior.

As the prosecution that i my objective and Young's
You are Rush's defense.

What can be said it Rush's defense....
I think very little.

You bring up shadow of doubt with is derivative of reasonable doubt.
What IS the reasonable doubt and how do you exemplify it.

Prosecution has 3 counts of endangerment.
There is no question whether he was present at the scene of each incident.
He did dial the Destiny gate
He was caught on video removing the weapon from the soldier's quarters
He did LIE as too the presence of an Icarus type planet.

What would the witnesses say of his Character?


Greer
Eli
Chloe

This is about justice....is it not?
Where is the reasonable doubt for Rush's innocence?




I do not believe Rush is a sociopath - nor do I believe he should have been confined. Suspecting he acted in a way that is self serving is by no means proof that he did, so imprisoning him on nothing but an impression would be stupid - especially considering he is one of the few people on board who understands the tech.

GateGypsy I agree that it's interesting how we have been lead to view Rush... We are def. not getting a full picture and this very much clouds the way his character can be viewed (and why their is so much debate).

I think the reason that Young didn't show the crew the kino footage is because a) he didn't think about it, b) he is a moron, c) he let his tempter get the best of him, d)he thinks he has the right to beat and leave people to die or e) he is mentally unfit.

I include 'e' simply because as the season has progressed he has become more and more mentally unhinged. I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with his head injury or whether or not he was suffering from some kind of illness in the flashback we saw in the first episode... the one he collapsed in.

I really don't think anything is as black and white as it appears to be with either Rush or Young... and I suspect there may even be a deeper history between them. I am really interested to see their relationship play out.[/QUOTE]

prove that with any definition of the term sociopath, and evidence from the show please.

Yes, sir.
Definition:sociopathic - Having the characteristics of a sociopath; Unconcerned about the adverse consequences for others of one's actions

The a fore mentioned: Stranding on Destiny
The a-fore mentioned: Framing for murder

With All-Due-Respect, sir.
You may not agree with the EVIDENCE...that it proves that he is a sociopath. But the evidence does support the theory.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

But the fact still remains that they weren't willing to sit and see how things panned out first, they were ready to go in guns blazing because he was their officer and he liked them more than the civilians.
I said those marines were 'tards.
I know how the courses work. But you DO get told a small selection of ones they know are safe, and then you are taught to judge other potential food safely from knowledge of the environment you are in. You can't have area knowledge no matter how much it looks like a jungle-in-a-studio or a quarry in Vancouever

How things would pan out? The fact that it was even a trial in the first place makes it a sham, on earth there simply wouldn’t be enough evidence to even try and prosecute. It was a show trial and it was clear that Wray wasn’t in the slightest interest in actual justice, she had a go at Chloe when she attempted to defend Young properly. And there was no talk of guns blazing, they just wanted to get back to work, rather than have the ship divided over a politically motivated trial with no evidance to support it.

As for survival courses, there are tell tale signs that a plants might be poisonous that apply to everything. Now if the plant life is green (meaning its chlorophyll reliant) and relatively earth like as seen in Time, then those same rules are going to apply, at least on a general level. Other things like where to look for safe water sources will apply to any planet.

[blackluster]

No matter how you dress it up, Rush committed a serious crime. If Rush had problems with Young’s leadership, you don’t go around addressing the problem by framing him for murder. You know what they’d call Rush’s crime in reality, perjury and subverting the course of justice. Those crimes tend to carry weighty sentences as well. It was also an incredibly stupid thing to do, people might be distrusting of Young but who wants to trust a b*stard who will try and frame you for murder when he has doubts about your skills. You can’t trust to work with someone after they’ve done something like that and condoning Rush’s actions are wrong. If he had doubts about Young’s command then he could have talked to him, he could have talked to others on the ship, but no he decided instead to frame Young for murder, proving without a shadow of a doubt that he couldn’t be trusted and turning the crew in on itself while distrust and division ran rampant. Well done Rush, brilliant work there.

Watch the eps again, that frame job wasn't the first strike. Rush has been warning Young about his leadership numerous times throughout the series so far. Young's nonsensical resistance to research on the chair was the straw that broke the camel's back. Rush was telling Young off about his leadership in Darkenss (crew wasting power), in Light (senseless conditional rewards), in Water (risking everyone's life for one person), in Earth (half baked rescue plans) and in Life (misusing an attempt to boost crew morale). That frame job was by no means out of nowhere. Rush has tried numerous times to get through to Young with words, hints and even taking matters into his own hands (Earth), but Young has stubbornly refused every warning and has instead embarked on a campaign of spying on Rush and ostracizing him.

He also completely miscalculated the military psyche. If he thought the military personnel would ever trust him or want to work with him again, he clearly has no clue how the military thinks. After this there was never going to be a working relationship between Rush and Young, no matter how rational Young would be. The military value above all else trust, trust that the man or women next to you has your back, that they can trust you and you can trust them, completely and utterly with your life in their hands. No one in the military would trust Rush a jot after what he did, you don’t trust a person who, if they have doubts about your command rather than addressing their problems rationally, instead plots, schemes and frames you. That could have Rush up on a charge for Mutiny if he was military. Despite the fact he is a civilian no military person would trust him after that. There are ways to deal with doubts about CO ability and then there is breaking the trust of the entire unit, someone does that and your working relationship with them ends.

The only way there would have been no trust going forward would be for them to completely ignore why Rush did what he did. I suppose that wouldn't be hard for Greer and co. since they seem more interested in protecting their own that what is actually the right thing to do. They would have to be rather bigoted as well to completely ignore all the times Rush has endeavored to save their lives. Trying to persecute Rush on the grounds that he cannot be trusted ever again only amounts to hate mongering, which is completely out of place in a situation that requires rational thought. Rush has saved them a number of times, even in cases where he has had to act unilaterally without telling them much. This is a plain and simple fact, end of story. Trust in their case must be born out of understanding. If any of them bothered to try and understand Rush's motivations they would realize exactly what they can trust him to do in any critical situation. Shutting your eyes to someone's thought processes and then choosing to hate and mistrust them when they don't do what you expect is supremely nonsensical.

As for the foraging for food issue, they can scan planets to see if they have plant life. When they get there though, as seen in Time they don’t have any fancy equipment to check which plants are edible or not. How will they know then, well they’ll have to rely on the survival training of the military personnel who are taught how to try and tell which plants will be more likely to be poisonous and which likely aren’t.

And they might have civilian engineers on board but it was the military one who risked his life to save the ship.

No, in Time, Rush was reasoning with Volker which were likely edible plants. They had already established a process of elimination as well for the different foods on offer. In the ep. with the space potato the scientists had already determined that it was safe to eat. Also, as Garrowan has again correctly pointed out, Earth survival training does not give you some overwhelming expertise in determining what is safe to eat. A check list on some unknown plant is invariably based on certain constants in a planet's climate and eco-system. All of that goes out the window in an alien ecology, since what one considers consequential in an earth environment can have zero application in an alien. At the end of the day, the scientists would still be the better choice in analyzing food, since they would have a much broader understanding of how environmental conditions and prevailing chemical compounds would affect plant life.

And yes, a military engineer did risk his life, but your suggestion that only a military engineer could have fixed that problem, or that somehow only a soldier is capable of risking his life for others, is quite obviously incorrect.