'Justice' (110) General Discussion

[Saquist]

Yes, I believe it is really important... no matter what other information you have. Motivation tells us a lot about the character, and how they see and interact with the world around them.



I think you have to show me a pattern of recklessness, because thus far a single proven moment of bad beahviour doesn't equate to a pattern.

Setting up Young for murder
The Icarus type planet lie
Deceiving Telford and manipulating the experiment to get them home.
Stranding them on Destiny on the other side of the Galaxy.

I thought you would have noticed.

[LtColCarter]

Is it really important?
I would say that it be relevant if you had no other information to glean.
You see we can't read minds so the next best thing is the pattern of behavior.

I think the pattern of recklessness says more.

That it does!

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I don't believe this means the military command should be treating civilians like soldiers because they simply are not. Using violence on them as a means of keeping them in line makes even less sense, especially in light of the fact that the significant civilians have a better grasp of the situation then the military personnel do. The fact that the military commander keeps mixing in an unhealthy dose of illogical command decisions fueled by paranoia and whatever baggage he is clearly carrying doesn't help the situation either and so I see absolutely no right for Young to even consider physical force against civilians. To my mind that should be clearly contrary to his mandate anyway.

I think you forgot the context of the point. You initially advocated using physical force on a civilian as opposed to a rational solution as a form of punishment. I've responded to this in turn trying to convey how using violence against what is essentially your own team as punishment is nonsensical. I especially took this line of reasoning considering the motivations of Daniel which I strongly suspect is being re-created for Rush, since using violence against these individuals seems laughably small-minded to me as the military personnel cannot possibly fathom the discovery that is at stake and thus making them mostly unsuitable of passing judgment.

I'll try to be clear now so you don't misunderstand. Obviously, part of a military's prerogative is the means and the will to inflict violence to meet some required goal. What I content however, is that that being extended to legitimizing violence against your own is ridiculous, especially in what is a fantastic fictional situation. In both cases, beating up a scientist of Rush's intellect solves absolutely nothing and given the situation the crew find themselves in and what I think we will soon be seeing in the new season, Rush is the last guy you want to try that on. Roughing people up doesn't solve everything in the real world and I doubt it works all the time in the military either.

Lets be clear here, the civilians signed up to the Stargate program, a program which is run primarily by the US Airforce with other militaries chipping in. They were at the Icarus base, a military base with a military commander. They were part of the structure. Therefore as civilian contractors on military bases in the real world, military law applies to them. There is no way around this and the military is not the sort of organisation that makes exceptions for people, if you have signed on the dotted line to be part of the military structure you get treated the same.

If in a combat situation in Afghanistan a soldier started flapping seriously then an RSM would be well within his rights to knock some sense into him. Understand that the military does not go willy nilly having people beaten, but no one would bat an eyelid in a dangerous situation if someone was being a danger to themselves and others if they were grabbed roughly, given a knock on the head and told to pull themselves together and get themselves in line and if they didn’t were forcefully restrained to prevent themselves being a danger to themselves and others. They’re in a dangerous situation on the Destiny and Rush was acting out of line, culminating in an offence that would bring him up on a serious charge. I don’t condone what Young did next but that doesn’t remove the fact that Rush committed a grave crime as well. He is, or rather was, out of control himself. As for the military being “small minded” I rather resent that, there’s nothing small minded about valuing human lives.

On a general note there seem to be a lot of people talking about how Rush is needed by the crew for his knowledge of the ship and that he should strike just to show how needed he is. I wonder what would happen if the military personnel tried that instead, you know the ones with all the medical training, the survival skills, the combat training, the leadership skills. The civilians and Rush need the military personnel just as much as the military need them and if the military downed tools as it were the civilians would be seriously screwed.

[Stewart5]

The civilians and Rush need the military personnel just as much as the military need them and if the military downed tools as it were the civilians would be seriously screwed.

As would the military if the civvies did same. We've been over this.
As for civilian contractors on base, yes they have to follow military law (at least in the UK)
HOWEVER, they do not answer directly to any military personnel unless they have been directly placed beneath their direction. Sergeants cannot wander around bellowing at civilians to do things. Like wise, they cannot randomly discipline them either, unless the civilians is messing around with military equipment, causing trouble with soldiers etc. They have to report to the senior of said civilian.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

We don't actually know any of that. What we do know is that Telford was in charge of the expedition while Young was in charge of the base. That last does not, in itself, place any of the civilians under his military command, other perhaps to support the civilian and military expedition.

It seems abundantly clear that Young was in command of all personnel on the base. It was very clearly a military base, what with all the military personnel, the copious gun positions, the airfield. Civilian contractors on military bases fall under military law and chain of command, the base commander is essentially God in this regard, he controls who and what is on his base and has the power to order them around, this included people like the Senator when he was on the base. There might be a civilian whose job is to be the civilians immediate boss/ supervisor but they will defer to the base commander. Young if you remember orders Rush to end the first attempted dialling of the 9th chevron, it is abundantly clear that Young has control over the base. Telford might have been given command of the expedition but while he was on the base he would defer to Young.

To me, that's expected, but using violence casually to resolve an issue that should be solved by talking seems overkill.

Say hello to the military, we like overkill

[Stewart5]

But don't like having to pay for it

[Stewart5]

You know what, this whole thing could have been sorted out if they just sat down together and had a few biscuits over a nice cup of tea. But then again, Justice is just another episode where it shows tptb have descriminated against the eaters of biscuits. Will this never end!?!

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

As would the military if the civvies did same. We've been over this.
As for civilian contractors on base, yes they have to follow military law (at least in the UK)
HOWEVER, they do not answer directly to any military personnel unless they have been directly placed beneath their direction. Sergeants cannot wander around bellowing at civilians to do things. Like wise, they cannot randomly discipline them either, unless the civilians is messing around with military equipment, causing trouble with soldiers etc. They have to report to the senior of said civilian.

Yes and no, some Sergeant can’t just start yelling at civvies on a base for no reason, but the base commander can have him do that and more, up to the ability to throw people off base or have them detained. Young is clearly seen giving orders to Rush, as I said as commander his word is law, that even applies to the civilians.

[Stewart5]

Yes, when under the authority of the base commander, NOT UNDER HIS OWN authority. Unlike with actual military personnel, who he can personally **** kick into next sunday.

What do you think of my theory? Biccies make it all good? I think that if someone had given Wray a digestive, then she would have mellowed out and not been so hard nosed.....

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Yes, when under the authority of the base commander, NOT UNDER HIS OWN authority. Unlike with actual military personnel, who he can personally **** kick into next sunday.

What do you think of my theory? Biccies make it all good? I think that if someone had given Wray a digestive, then she would have mellowed out and not been so hard nosed.....

Yeah well a Sergeant beating up anyone randomly would end up on charges himself. The point is though if some civvies, say a contactor got stuck in a contact with troops in Afghanistan and started flapping big time, no one would lift a finger against an NCO who locked them down hard if they were a danger to others. This applies to Rush who needed to be locked down, though clearly Young’s actions could be called extreme to say the least.

As for biscuits I think their past the point where even hobnobs would solve anything.

[Stewart5]

Hobnobs....useless???? Never!!!!

I didn't mean the sergeant would randomly beat on a soldier without good reason. But he can't treat a soldier and a civvie contractor the same way.

[aretood2]

Why? You are living under the impression that Rush made the wrong decision in sending them to Destiny. There is no proof that he made either the right or wrong decision so therefore it's difficult to assume his judgment is lacking.

Eh? How can that not be wrong. He could have safely dialed earth! We have seen powerful explosions blocked by the Iris, for example when Abydos was destroyed the Iris blocked the very same weapon the Goa'uld shields could not block.

Or he could have dialed any other planet. Either way, if the blast did make it through, and it didn't, Destiny would still have been destroyed killing everyone. There is no excuse other than selfish thirst for what ever it is that he is looking for. He is self destructive and is willing to take others down with him.

Young's judgment on the otherhand has been shown to be lacking over a number of episodes.

He is Grey because his judgment may be lacking, but his heart really is in the right place. Rush is a menace, and I ask you. If you were in his position and thought that you had a psycho on your hands what would you have done?

The only thing he has done wrong is set up Young, everything else is supposition.

Lie about an Icarus like planet
Needlessly strand everyone on the destiny thus effectively killing anyone who dies
Lying about SGC's plan to send them home and then sabotaging it.

How is that confusing. He cares, he just doesn't have the social graces and abilities to show people he cares.

Blah blah blah blah
I couldn't care less about excuses. He knows right from wrong, he KNEW (If not then he is not a good scientist) that it would have been better to dail an uninhabited planet. He KNEW about all his lies.

Everything is grey in him. He is neither good or bad, like every human on the planet. Even Young, who I believe is an abusive moron at the best of times is a gray character.

You have a very depressing and pessimistic view on humanity then.

[LtColCarter]

Eh? How can that not be wrong. He could have safely dialed earth! We have seen powerful explosions blocked by the Iris, for example when Abydos was destroyed the Iris blocked the very same weapon the Goa'uld shields could not block.

Or he could have dialed any other planet. Either way, if the blast did make it through, and it didn't, Destiny would still have been destroyed killing everyone. There is no excuse other than selfish thirst for what ever it is that he is looking for. He is self destructive and is willing to take others down with him.


He is Grey because his judgment may be lacking, but his heart really is in the right place. Rush is a menace, and I ask you. If you were in his position and thought that you had a psycho on your hands what would you have done?



Lie about an Icarus like planet
Needlessly strand everyone on the destiny thus effectively killing anyone who dies
Lying about SGC's plan to send them home and then sabotaging it.


Blah blah blah blah
I couldn't care less about excuses. He knows right from wrong, he KNEW (If not then he is not a good scientist) that it would have been better to dail an uninhabited planet. He KNEW about all his lies.


You have a very depressing and pessimistic view on humanity then.

Very well said!

[blackluster]

Lets be clear here, the civilians signed up to the Stargate program, a program which is run primarily by the US Airforce with other militaries chipping in. They were at the Icarus base, a military base with a military commander. They were part of the structure. Therefore as civilian contractors on military bases in the real world, military law applies to them. There is no way around this and the military is not the sort of organisation that makes exceptions for people, if you have signed on the dotted line to be part of the military structure you get treated the same.

Yes they are under military command on that base, but as far as I'm concerned that gives the military personnel absolutely no right to use violence against the civilians. They are signed up for work under a military environment, not for unilaterally assigned beatings as directed by a mentally unfit commander.

If in a combat situation in Afghanistan a soldier started flapping seriously then an RSM would be well within his rights to knock some sense into him. Understand that the military does not go willy nilly having people beaten, but no one would bat an eyelid in a dangerous situation if someone was being a danger to themselves and others if they were grabbed roughly, given a knock on the head and told to pull themselves together and get themselves in line and if they didn’t were forcefully restrained to prevent themselves being a danger to themselves and others. They’re in a dangerous situation on the Destiny and Rush was acting out of line, culminating in an offence that would bring him up on a serious charge. I don’t condone what Young did next but that doesn’t remove the fact that Rush committed a grave crime as well. He is, or rather was, out of control himself. As for the military being “small minded” I rather resent that, there’s nothing small minded about valuing human lives.

There was no imminent danger in any situation there that warranted physical force that would have made some significant difference to the situation. You wanted Young to beat Rush on the exploding planet till he changed the gate address? Unfortunately that could easily assign everyone at the Earth gate to instant death had Rush been right. You wanted Young to beat Rush on the Destiny after they all arrived? For what? The situation had passed and it's not like Rush would suddenly gain an epiphany from being beaten in the face. Your analogy assumes that Rush was somehow out of control in both situations, though I've contended here and in other threads that he has weighed all his decisions so far with a cold rationality to the nth degree in terms of viable risks and the lives at stake. I simply don't see him as being under the influence of some kind of hysteria that would make "locking him down" be of any worth whatsoever. There is also no need to feel resentment over a generalization that didn't appear in anything I typed

On a general note there seem to be a lot of people talking about how Rush is needed by the crew for his knowledge of the ship and that he should strike just to show how needed he is. I wonder what would happen if the military personnel tried that instead, you know the ones with all the medical training, the survival skills, the combat training, the leadership skills. The civilians and Rush need the military personnel just as much as the military need them and if the military downed tools as it were the civilians would be seriously screwed.

One can talk about Rush being uncooperative because he has a right to. He was essentially left to die by a man who has done nothing but impede his work. The military downing tools at this point serves no purpose. It would simply be petulant. As far as the daily life and work on the ship goes, a vast majority of the military personnel serve no purpose other than under the direction of scientists searching parts of the ship. Rationing is by no means a skill you can only gain in the military and aside for security off world, there isn't much for them to do. After TJ, the cook is about the second most useful soldier and I suppose Scott who can fly the shuttle. As Garrowan pointed out, drawing the contrast is useless since their situation is bizarre enough that they all need each other, even if that need isn't immediately apparent. Even people like Spencer had some worth somewhere.

You know what, this whole thing could have been sorted out if they just sat down together and had a few biscuits over a nice cup of tea. But then again, Justice is just another episode where it shows tptb have discriminated against the eaters of biscuits. Will this never end!?!

I truly believe that a vast majority of conflicts could have been avoided if people had just chosen the correct demeanor in speaking to each other. I hold no special affinity for the power of tea, though sitting over a meal works just as well, which to Young's credit he did try to do, though his reasoning for it was a bit flimsy.

[Stewart5]

Well said Blacluster! Though, no tea and a meal instead of biscuits....what are you on......