'Incursion, Part 1' (119) General Discussion

[SG7]

Ok something that has been over looked in all this discussion is "What is Kiva's plan?" hmm lets go to this rust bucket and... Shes gotta know something about how to get it home, shes not going to simply try to turn it around and wait 100,000 years or how ever long... So lets run it down, they can open the doors, through specific tech means, so they have a similar door or mechanism to test and fabricate from. Telford couldn't possibly give details for fabricating something like that. Where is this door? What else did it come with? (ship or base,possibly the launch point) and how did they come by it?
It seems pretty obvious that Franklin/destiny did fry that guy, and is also not moving the ship, so young's going to be like "OK well I don't have control and good luck trying to get it!"

I wouldn't be surprised if those already aboard the Destiny are laughing their butts off wondering why anyone would want to overtake that old rust can. To us the viewer. We have only been given small nuggets of information about the Destiny. And we have also been given very little information about the LA. Untill we know what the LA knows about the Destiny and why they want the Destiny then, them wanting to gain control of the Destiny will not make much sense to us.

[SG7]

but this episode felt unfinished needed a good ending, and needed to explain why LA decided to attack destiny they way they did, seems kinda improvised.

I think that was kind of the point. Leave us hanging. Perhaps that's why it was called "Incursion Pt 1". That has tended to be their way of doing things this past few episodes or so. To not do the episodes where you can wrap it up at the end with a nice neat bow. There is always that little bit left that's keeping us wondering about some big or little thing(s) in the episode(s).

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

If I recall correctly she indicated that beaming technology couldn't be used there. No beaming in. No beaming out. And I think that the fighter pilots were within the field that prevented beaming them out.


I have a feeling that Young's poor decision making will be something that will affect future episodes. And I also have a feeling that it will be something that will haunt him and he will have to wrestle with the ramifications of that decision for a while.

I think it's really going to haunt him for a while. He bottled it, screwed up completely and the entire situation on the Destiny can be laid at his feet. At this point he has limited resources and it is almost inevitable that there will be casualties. Following this debacle I think his command ability really will be put into question.

[EllieVee]

I think it's really going to haunt him for a while. He bottled it, screwed up completely and the entire situation on the Destiny can be laid at his feet. At this point he has limited resources and it is almost inevitable that there will be casualties. Following this debacle I think his command ability really will be put into question.

He'll feel immediately better once he blames Rush.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

He'll feel immediately better once he blames Rush.

There's not really any way he can, is there? He I think will be pretty damaged by this situation, but he is still thinking rationally, he eventually realised Rush was right, there is no way he is going to save everyone.

[SG7]

That's a high standard you hold the characters to if they can never make a mistake.

Exactly, and if that is the case, I would say that those are the ones that are most dangerous to work under.

[SG7]

I suppose I don't see it as bad writing. In fact, an instant fix that would solve all their problems is more magical thinking and bad writing but that's just me. Like the incident with Telford, Young will only have to explain if he's proven wrong and we still have at least one more episode in this particular arc to have that happen. It's like only watching half the movie and walking out of the theater pissed that the story didn't make any sense

Exactly. We haven't seen the next episode or two yet. It's like getting a jigsaw puzzle and not having the box top to look at to figure it out. Once we have seen the next two episodes or so, I'm sure much of this episode will make more sense.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Exactly. We haven't seen the next episode or two yet. It's like getting a jigsaw puzzle and not having the box top to look at to figure it out. Once we have seen the next two episodes or so, I'm sure much of this episode will make more sense.

I have faith in the writers. They'll deliver a good story

[SG7]

Yes, but it would have bought time for the SG units to advance on the base. And maybe she wouldn't have realized he dialed a different planet, in which case they all would have ended up on a different planet. But it's not too big of a deal.

Problem with that is, he would have had no idea weather they would take him with them, or leave him there. And most likely thought that they would take him with them, and when they found out that they weren't on Destiny, would have killed him or something.

It's not bad writing when you consider the negatives.

When hindsight is 20/20 it is easy to dismiss something as bad writing.

[Kaiphantom]

The following is taken from JM's blog:

Yes, he could have vented the atmosphere immediately and killed them as per his initial plan, but when he saw Telford come through the gate, he elected to offer the Lucian Alliance the opportunity to surrender. It wouldn’t have cost him anything but time and could well have saved Telford’s life. If they’d refused, he would simply go back to Plan A and vent the atmosphere – which he does, but too late because the attackers have technology he wasn’t expecting them to have.

With all due respect to JM... are you telling us Young wouldn't have believed that the LA would come with explosives? Like grenades or bombs? Because he should have at least assumed they could blow the doors; after all, that's what he would do. In that light, the "keys" are irrelevant. Waiting is a bad thing, because it gives the LA time to blow the doors, something they'd do immediately upon learning that Young could vent the atmosphere. He gave away valuable intel by communicating, and that's something you just don't do.

JM is a good writer, and odds are he ran this script past others; it's just hard to believe that none of them thought the LA would have explosives. They might have thought of it, but perhaps they were in a bind because they realized that Young *could* counter anything the LA could do by venting atmosphere, and tried really hard to give some lame reason why he wouldn't, so the LA could get onto the ship. Giving the LA some other technical gadgets to counter it would have been a *less* lame reason. As a writer myself, I know relying on them is kinda bad, but I don't see any other alternative for getting the LA onto the ship and surviving.

I have a real problem with the word incompetent here.

I think that there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight and people assuming that people knew what they knew in time to do anything.

Thing is, 20/20 hindsight doesn't quite work here because we're working off what would be known or assumed at the time; as a military commander, it is Young's duty to guess the enemy's strategy and employ one that counters it. Before they arrived, he should assume they would be coming with weapons, and he should know the types of weapons the LA generally use, which would include explosives. Venting the atmosphere is good, but any military commander knows that the more time you give your enemy, the better the chance that they can come up with some way to counter it. Waiting *would* cost Young, and he should realize that; overestimating your enemy is arrogance, and is what the Goa'uld suffered from.

Let's turn it around: What if Young HAD done it? Had just vented that room? We'd be 50 pages deep in multiple threads about what a heartless monster Young was to have done such a thing, whether it was Rush or Telford and I'm sure that a lot of those posters would be raising the point that Young didn't know WHO he was killing. Or, in the case of what happened in the episode, sparing. He spared a man's life. Does it really matter whether the life he spared was Rush's or Telford's?

Let's play that: If he had vented the atmosphere, and let's say killed the LA and Telford (Rush would have been safe, due to stone disconnection), it would have been an excellent moment. Young just single-handily saved the people on the ship. War isn't pretty, and sometimes you have to do stuff that's not pretty. I would *not* have condemned him as heartless, because he did what he had to do. However, then we wouldn't have the LA on the ship, and the plot calls for them to be there. I am more in favor of a better way which more logically allows the LA to be on the ship, while having Young not look incompetent.

And further, since it's Young that you mention that should have been on the end of a radio call about Rush, who was responsible for that call, if it should have been made? Is TJ responsible because she didn't call Young immediately?

TJ isn't. It's solely on Young to order someone to disconnect the stones.

Do I think Young is perfect or that he handled the situation perfectly? No. But clearly the writers don't either, as they make a point of showing the man second-guessing himself in a major way (how often do you see THAT in a show?). He's not perfect, but he's not incompetent either. He has to change his plans, to, as he said, do things the hard way. Rush is alive. Telford is alive. Like the "torture" threads before, the only way that Young comes out as incompetent is if he loses. If he doesn't lose?

The problem is, they made Young look *too* incompetent. There were other ways of going about it, which would have got the LA on the ship and made Young's actions more grey at the very least. He still could be left second-guessing himself afterwards, when the LA do take over the ship.

[SG7]

I agree. Young's character is disliked by some on this board. Through the glasses of their negative feelings any action taken by him will be condemned. You are right he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Personally I don't mind him as a character. I just don't particularily like him as a military leader. Especially with some of the decisions I've seen him make, and with him second guessing some of his own decisions. He should never have gone or had to go and talk to O'Neill. In fact what would have happened if someone had been radioing him in the midst of the commotion and found that he wasn't there?

Though I will excuse that bad judgement call as I'm sure it was only used to give RDA more than one scene of screentime.

[Blackhole]

I have a real problem with the word incompetent here.

I think that there is a lot of 20/20 hindsight and people assuming that people knew what they knew in time to do anything. If I was in Young's position, would I have vented the air in that room? Yeah, I would. But that's the thing, *I* would. If you're a guy on the floor of that gateroom and want to come out of it alive, *I* might not be the one you'd want with life or death control over your life because I would kill. Can I stress too much that I'm not Young?

Let's turn it around: What if Young HAD done it? Had just vented that room? We'd be 50 pages deep in multiple threads about what a heartless monster Young was to have done such a thing, whether it was Rush or Telford and I'm sure that a lot of those posters would be raising the point that Young didn't know WHO he was killing. Or, in the case of what happened in the episode, sparing. He spared a man's life. Does it really matter whether the life he spared was Rush's or Telford's?

And further, since it's Young that you mention that should have been on the end of a radio call about Rush, who was responsible for that call, if it should have been made? Is TJ responsible because she didn't call Young immediately?

I don't know if anyone in here has ever had anyone shooting at them, or been in a position where their lives have been in that kind of danger, but I'm wondering if you have any idea just how fluid time gets? How fast things are really moving? Sure, on the tv, all these things play out in a logical order because that's the way it's cut together to look. It gives the illusion that everything is happening sequentially when in fact, everything could be happening at the same time. So thinking that there is time to do something? Maybe not so much

Plans change in warfare all the time, when the facts on the ground change. Not wanting to kill your own people would definitely qualify as a change.

Do I think Young is perfect or that he handled the situation perfectly? No. But clearly the writers don't either, as they make a point of showing the man second-guessing himself in a major way (how often do you see THAT in a show?). He's not perfect, but he's not incompetent either. He has to change his plans, to, as he said, do things the hard way. Rush is alive. Telford is alive. Like the "torture" threads before, the only way that Young comes out as incompetent is if he loses. If he doesn't lose?

Posted before reading Kaiphantom's entry in #325 above.

My opinion has vacillated as I have read others’ views and rewatched the episode several times.

I initially used incompetent because that is how the poster chose to describe him. With more reflection I think a better description may be poor judgment which may not be entirely fair either. I watched the episode again and it was clear that Young delayed evacuating the chamber to preserve Telford/Rush's lives. He tried to give LA a chance to surrender before he evacuated the chamber to vacuum. When he was informed they had something to open the doors he gave the order to evacuate but it was too late as they immediately got the doors open.

His initial delay was clearly motivated out of compassion and strategically it wasn't the best decision. However, I bet if we went back an looked at all the crises that SG-1 and Atlantis were involved in we would find that their respective leaders when faced with a choice of immediately attacking or delaying to try to save one of their own that they routinely chose to delay even if it wasn’t the best strategic decision at the time. SGU is a different show in that the answer isn't always found in the nick of time and everything doesn't always work out by the end of the episode and characters make mistakes that have serious consequences and repercussions.

In the Stargate Universe, in the end, it almost always works out for the best. I think you are completely right that Young is being held to an unfair and double fictional standard by many. If he had acted immediately and evacuated the air then some of the same people who are accusing him of making a bad decision would scream bloody murder for his choice to immediately sacrifice Telford's life. In Stargate’s fictional world imo, I would rather see a commander who is reluctant to sacrifice one of his own than one who would do so readily.

[SG7]

Remember, to TJ's thinking, Young has the plan to vent the atmosphere and she has no idea what's going on out there because she's "safe" in the infirmary. I still think far too many posters are assuming that because they've seen everything that's going on, that the characters have that same information. TJ likely believes it'll all be over in a minute and so doesn't know that it's importantr that it's Rush. Young still thinks it's Rush in the gateroom. This is the informatiuon they have to work with.

Exactly! As far as TJ was concerned, Young was venting the room. She even said as much when she said that it would be all over in a minute or so. She couldn't have known from the safety of the infirmary that Young had changed his mind on his plan. And that everything had gone wrong. So in her mind she had absolutely no reason to that she had to tell Young about the switch back that had occured.

[guruguru]

I'm going say this again, LA crew will mostly end up dead and the rest will join Destiny crew, specially Kiva

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

.... I think you are completely right that Young is being held to an unfair and double fictional standard by many. If he had acted immediately and evacuated the air then some of the same people who are accusing him of making a bad decision would scream bloody murder for his choice to immediately sacrifice Telford's life. In Stargate’s fictional world imo, I would rather see a commander who is reluctant to sacrifice one of his own than one who would do so readily.

I think that all of the shows have had scenes where sparing people when it could be done was the choice made. Is it always the best choice? Probably not, or at least not the most expedient choice. Sometimes all you've got is a crap choice. I think that where SGU differs is that we're made to sweat that choice. It's not 'choice made, people saved, we're noble and credits are rolling, never to be touched upon again'. This could extend even further, to a whole slew of shows, not just the Stargate series. I think a flip side of this that has to be considered is that we may be about to see what he's willing to do to save people.

Exactly! As far as TJ was concerned, Young was venting the room. She even said as much when she said that it would be all over in a minute or so. She couldn't have known from the safety of the infirmary that Young had changed his mind on his plan. And that everything had gone wrong. So in her mind she had absolutely no reason to that she had to tell Young about the switch back that had occured.

She couldn't have known the LA were even alive until she got captured, until it was too late. Heck of a time to learn that Young also hadn't killed everyone, like she feared.