'Incursion, Part 1' (119) General Discussion

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

He's an idiot for not venting the atmosphere, and for not disconnecting the stones the instant he saw Telford in the gate room. The whole reason given for him *not* venting the atmosphere, was that he wanted to save Rush. Disconnecting the stones would have done that. And if he wanted to save Telford, venting the atmosphere is not going to kill everyone; a person can be revived after 5 minutes of no oxygen with no brain damage. After that, they can still be revived, but there could be some brain damage, but varies from person to person.



We've seen plenty of long, straight corridors on Destiny. It's hard to tell exactly what the situation was like there (due to the bad camera angles and motion during the firefight), but the military should have been prepared for something like flashbangs; it should have been part of their training. Regardless, those things have a certain range, and there should have been people out of that range, ready to move up if others are incapacitated. Otherwise, that's just bad tactics, and putting all your eggs in one basket.

As I said, better writing would have been to use those Goa'uld grenades that flash a light and everyone just drops unconscious(like what Bre'tak used one at the end of SG-1's first season). The LA obviously has access to Goa'uld tech.



Not many, especially given the circumstances.

Did Young make an idiotic mistake not venting the atmosphere? Yes he did, but people make mistakes in reality, and it fits his character. His realization that this one mistake of his caused the entire hostage situation drives him to want to get everyone back.
As for flash bangs the firefight clearly is shown happening round narrow winding corridors, which is the perfect situation for the use of flash bangs. And honestly how would Goa'uld stun grenades make any difference, they do exactly the same as flash bangs do in real life. Arguably their less effective, creating no noise or smoke to conceal movement.

[major davis]

Still why didn't he cut the stones... Is there any reason he didnt cut the stone connection to Telford so he could vent the atmosphere.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Still why didn't he cut the stones... Is there any reason he didnt cut the stone connection to Telford so he could vent the atmosphere.

Err what? The connection was cut when Rush stepped through the stargate. Telford was physically on the ship.

[major davis]

I know but i was saying Young thought it was still Rush.. So why didnt he cut the connection and then vent the atmosphere...

He was just like.. whoops Rush is on board lets not vent the atmosphere.. He should have ordered Riley to cut the connection and then vented the atmosphere instead of just staring at the screen thinking oh crap.... Or is there an explaniation im missing?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I know but i was saying Young thought it was still Rush.. So why didnt he cut the connection and then vent the atmosphere...

How's that any better? Well actually I think I sort of see what you mean, one would die rather than both. However it's of no real relevance because the connection was cut anyway.

Either way Telford dies, and Young hesitated, he thought he had time to wait , a mistake that cost him dearly.

[shipper hannah]

I do not like the way they represented Carter. Carter would have known to beam out the F302 pilots, just like in SGA's season 2 episode 2 The Intruder (Wraith AI episode) they beamed Sheppard onto the bridge.

Sure, they had to in order to make the 'right call' comment, but.. it's Carter. She wouldn't make that mistake.

I thought they said they couldn't beam anyone in or out, hence why they used gliders?

[General Jumper One]

I thought they said they couldn't beam anyone in or out, hence why they used gliders?

They said they couldn't beam into the pyramid

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

phew, major quotagey goodness...

Franklin/destiny fried that guy

I think so too. I think that's why they're not jumping either. Maybe not Franklin exactly, or solely, but the ship, definitely

I can't decide on a star rating for this one, but it's definitely gonna be pretty high. That was one wild ride...

5 stars for me. By the time I could tear my eyes away, it was already over and I was yelling for it to be next week already

i have a question when O'Neill Said "maybe i should be there" when he was talking to young do you think the writers were giving us a vague hint at what might happen in the future?

No, O'Neill was just telling him to get back to work or he may be replaced. There are dozens of lives at stake now, the bar's been raised. If Young can't repel this invasion, the SGC will send someone who can.

exactly on both. O'Neill is basically saying smarten the eff up and get the job done or someone will step in and do it for you. second guessing, especially when he's going to lose people, is part of Young's character but there are times...

He thought it was still Rush in there, and if he died, their odds of ever gaining complete control over the ship (or any number of scientific or technical problems) would plummet. He's too valuable to just kill without at least making an attempt to rescue him.

I strongly believe that as well. I know there's a contingent that strongly believes that Young hates Rush but I just don't see it and I think in this scene, he dropped a perfectly viable military decision because he wanted to spare Rush's life. That's no small thing.

...For some reason many Civilians were kept in close proximity to the gateroom and were captured. Why on Earth (or Destiny) would they have been there? They should have been gathered at the farthest point away possible.
....

Some of those civilians were necessary to run systems on Destiny that the military couldn't and, as the amount of ship space that they actually control is quite small, everything is close to the gateroom anyway.

...
On a loosely related note: did anyone else howl with laugher at the guy who got scorched by the gate's steam blow-off? I don't know what it was about that scene, but I just couldn't help myself

Yes, I did too. It was as though the Destiny scored a point right off the bat

i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

Kiva is the ruthless "other" that puts Young's humanity in a big bright light for everyone to see. There are those that have made Young out to be some sort of evil incarnate. They're wrong. If you really want to see someone ruthless, with no regard for human life, take a look at Kiva.

...Rhona Mitra's chewing of the scenery is funtime personified. Meanwhile, that Telford is actually onboard the Destiny excites me. Either he'll die horribly soon, or become a new problem for Young's command in season two (I personally think they'll find a use for him before he dies horribly mid season two - some sort of liasion between any surviving LA folks and the Destinites?).

...Eli and Chloe's whacky adventure was fun, because it gave Eli some heroic stuff to deal with and it's really propelling him upwards in character development. That, and their bonding is always good, and we're definitely going to find something cool at the end of all these corridors, I know it.

Young continues to be awesomely insane. Rush did nothing really, but I was a little facepalm-y at him and Wray continuing to bump heads with nutso Young. We're in the middle of something kids! Please!

...

This is why over the top villains can be so much fun Chomp chomp chomp
Eli has, as Young's said, pulled their asses out of the fire before and I'm really hoping that he can do it here too. His scenes with Chloe are definitely heroic and it made me laugh when he was talking about WoW.
It amazes me that so many people are bumping heads with Young when there really isn't time for that crap at the moment. Sure, after everyone is fine, then all go down to Brody's bar and have a good old yell, but in the middle of a fight and you get pissy? Ugh

Actually not putting people in the gate room was the best idea. Gating to Destiny from the Milky Way as we have seen throws people out violently, and at speed. Put people on the ground level next to the stargate and you've got a whole horrible mess of LA personnel being thrown out of the stargate in and amongst you, then it's not a firefight ,it would descend into a brawl and the advantage that Young's personnel would have would be negated. Putting people up on the balcony overlooking the stargate would also seem like a good idea, good field of fire and if it were a normal gate assault this would work perfectly, mow down the LA as they walked through. Except they don't walk through, they get shot through at speed, enough so that more than likely several could scramble underneath the balcony, and then you've got to find some way to dislodge them.

The biggest reason for Young's plan whoever is simply lack of resources. He has only limited ammo and limited military personnel, and he's in a hostile region of space with other hostile aliens to fight. He needs to conserve resources, putting men into the gateroom means putting resources at risk, they had no idea the size of the LA force, the military personnel could have simply run out of ammo, or at the very least suffered casualties, there is no way to guarantee in a firefight you will not take casualties, and the last thing they need is wounded to take care of. Young's plan of venting the atmosphere was absolutely the correct thing to do, with limited resources it was the best course of action. The only reason it didn't work was because he bottled it when he saw Telford, with drove him conviction to get back the hostages later on, the entire situation could be left as Young's feet for not giving the order soon enough.

After that it was all downhill, LA used standard breech and clear tactics to clear the corridors, they took casualties, but with the limited resources available to Young's personnel there was no way they'd realistically hold them back.

Whose we sucka? Let me handily translate your post into plain English. "Boohoo not everyone shares my opinion." I thought this was a fantastic episode, full of action and tension, and better than many an SG1 and SGA.

I really appreciate your insights into these things. Add to that that the original plan was to vent the atmosphere, so why would you put your own people in there as well? Clearly, Young is also thinking of Kiva's tactics, when he's talking about the positioning of her own people. They've both got limited resources, but as far as manpower and ammo, Kiva's team is ahead of the game. Young has limited manpower, limited ammo, and he's also got civilians to worry about, all things that Kiva doesn't have to worry about. One thing Young does have going for him is he knows where he is, so he's got home ground advantage.

It's still putting men in danger for no good reason. They had a good plan and it only failed because Young bottled it at the last moment. Any officer that puts his people in danger when there are perfectly good alternatives is a lunatic. Even though they could have good fields of fire, it's such a tight space casualties would be inevitable.

Yes, Young definitely failed there and the episode would have been a lot shorter if he'd just vented the atmosphere, but I get his reasons for not doing it.

But Chloe couldn't have carried Eli! lol

LOL!

And your speaking from what military experience? Your experience with weapons is what exactly? Young had a plan, a plan that puts none of his men in danger, expends none of his much need and precious ammunition and deals with the LA quickly, neutralising them at the press of a button, rather than risk a firefight that could go on for how long against an enemy that he has no idea about the composition of the LA forces, what their armed with or how many there are.

Young's plan would have worked perfect if he hadn't lost his nerve when he did. It's not just about winning, its about winning with least possible expenditure of personnel and resources.

I think Young's first plan was great, if ruthless. I have no doubt that his fall back plan will be effective as he's already shown once in this show alone that he's more than able to take the ship if he has to. You don't get to the position he's in without making some ruthless decisions and we're about to see some.

We need to find Ancient wheelbarrows

*huge grin*

Did Young make an idiotic mistake not venting the atmosphere? Yes he did, but people make mistakes in reality, and it fits his character. His realization that this one mistake of his caused the entire hostage situation drives him to want to get everyone back.
As for flash bangs the firefight clearly is shown happening round narrow winding corridors, which is the perfect situation for the use of flash bangs. And honestly how would Goa'uld stun grenades make any difference, they do exactly the same as flash bangs do in real life. Arguably their less effective, creating no noise or smoke to conceal movement.

I completely agree that this fits his character. From moment one in this show, Young has been someone that didn't want to do it anymore. It doesn't mean that he can't, and that's an important distinction to make. He doesn't want to do it because he's lost too many people and doesn't want to lose any more. He turfed his plan so he wouldn't lose Rush. Now pressed with getting people back, I think we're going to see a whole new animal.

[Kaiphantom]

Did Young make an idiotic mistake not venting the atmosphere? Yes he did, but people make mistakes in reality, and it fits his character. His realization that this one mistake of his caused the entire hostage situation drives him to want to get everyone back.
As for flash bangs the firefight clearly is shown happening round narrow winding corridors, which is the perfect situation for the use of flash bangs. And honestly how would Goa'uld stun grenades make any difference, they do exactly the same as flash bangs do in real life. Arguably their less effective, creating no noise or smoke to conceal movement.

They are better, because a flashbang still leaves you conscious, while a Goa'uld grenade knocks you out instantly, and lasts several minutes at least. Enough time to take the corridors without risking a single life. It also has a larger radius of effect than a flashbang, enough to take out people waiting further down the corridors.

Look, maybe you can layer on rationalization after justification, until the kool-aid tastes good enough. The rest of us see bad writing, and idiotic decisions, which is fair criticisms. Had I been writing it, I would have given the LA a nice stun device that worked on a decent range, at least. Or a large bomb. "Vent the atmosphere and I set this off, which will destroy the entire ship." In fact, that would have made a better standoff. If I'm gating onto a ship with known hostiles, and I know their MO, I'm gonna have a damn good for taking the ship. Kiva didn't; her whole thing was "Let's gate a bunch of my men onto it and hope we can take it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ain.WallBanger

This episode has them.

[hedwig]

i have decided that kiva is a be-atch. she was willing to kill TJ -The only medic on the ship. not to mention she was pregnant with a life. doesn't kiva have any morals?

I have no doubt whatsoever that Kiva would have killed TJ on the spot had Telford not stopped her. And that act alone would have doomed her. Every survivor on board would likely had been happy to kill her themselves if they got a chance. And awhile back, I said something about her being completely coldhearted, and this supports that notion. The very fact that she could even consider killing a pregnant woman just to make a point gives her zero credibility with me. I don't even care that she gets mad when one of her own people gets killed; so what if she's willing to kill a pregnant woman?

While a decision to kill the only medic is a daft one, does Kiva know there's only one medic? (haven't seen the episode) Did Kiva perhaps bring her own medical personnel? Plus, why would TJ's life mean anything at all to her?

She told Rush (last week?) she had a list of all the people that made it to Destiny, which suggests she might also know that one of those people was a medic. I would think that means she also knows who the medic was. But she didn't know the pregnant woman was the medic (IMO), partly because TJ wasn't wearing a uniform, and Kiva didn't stop to get names when they took prisoners (other than names being on uniform jackets).

killing a woman would have a bigger impact than killing f.e. Riley

Killing a pregnant woman would have made an enormously bigger impact than killing any of the other prisoners.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

They are better, because a flashbang still leaves you conscious, while a Goa'uld grenade knocks you out instantly, and lasts several minutes at least. Enough time to take the corridors without risking a single life. It also has a larger radius of effect than a flashbang, enough to take out people waiting further down the corridors.

Look, maybe you can layer on rationalization after justification, until the kool-aid tastes good enough. The rest of us see bad writing, and idiotic decisions, which is fair criticisms. Had I been writing it, I would have given the LA a nice stun device that worked on a decent range, at least. Or a large bomb. "Vent the atmosphere and I set this off, which will destroy the entire ship." In fact, that would have made a better standoff. If I'm gating onto a ship with known hostiles, and I know their MO, I'm gonna have a damn good for taking the ship. Kiva didn't; her whole thing was "Let's gate a bunch of my men onto it and hope we can take it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ain.WallBanger

This episode has them.

No it really isn't a wallbanger. If you had any idea the effect flashbangs have, especially in confined spaces, you wouldn't be nitpicking.

Apart from that bad decisions happen, have you considered that Young making a mistake was part of the episode, or do your tv characters have to be perfect?

[Kaiphantom]

No it really isn't a wallbanger. If you had any idea the effect flashbangs have, especially in confined spaces, you wouldn't be nitpicking.

Apart from that bad decisions happen, have you considered that Young making a mistake was part of the episode, or do your tv characters have to be perfect?

You didn't read the tvtropes entry, did you? When a character takes the idiot ball and runs with it, that's a wallbanger. When an entire defense team can be taken out with a *single* flashbang because they were all bunched up and carrying idiot balls, that's a wallbanger. There's willing suspension of disbelief, and then there's a wallbanger.

Read the entry.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

No it really isn't a wallbanger. If you had any idea the effect flashbangs have, especially in confined spaces, you wouldn't be nitpicking.

Apart from that bad decisions happen, have you considered that Young making a mistake was part of the episode, or do your tv characters have to be perfect?

yikes, spare us from perfect characters that never make a mistake! I for one am glad that not only was a mistake made but that weakness and indecision was right up front, with Young going to O'Neill. Having perfect characters that always know exactly what to do and are sure of themselves at every moment gets old really fast.

[aaobuttons]

SGU – Incursion, Part 1
xxxevilgrinxxx


No discussion of “Incursion” would be complete without mentioning Eli and Chloe. It's always been more than friends, at least from Eli's side but I'm wondering if Chloe is getting a new look at her best friend and if she's measuring the two men in her life in that light.

Not to break down into a Scott/Chloe/Eli discussion, but I would like to see some realization on Chloe's part. Either that she realizes Eli's feelings are more than friendship and shoots him down, or that she realizes that she has feelings for him that are more than friendship.

I've always thought that she and Scott got together because she needed a protector, being all alone without her father in the middle of nowhere is scary, and it's completely understandable that she needed somebody of strength to take care of her. The fact that Eli can protect her as well will perhaps push that factor out of the way when determining if there is more to her relationship with Scott and if not, if Eli isn't a better option for her as a whole.

My guess would be that no, she doesn't give up Scott and Eli is left heartbroken... but who knows, maybe there will be a cute girl with the LA that can capture his heart in season 2.

[MattSilver 3k]

You didn't read the tvtropes entry, did you? When a character takes the idiot ball and runs with it, that's a wallbanger. When an entire defense team can be taken out with a *single* flashbang because they were all bunched up and carrying idiot balls, that's a wallbanger. There's willing suspension of disbelief, and then there's a wallbanger.

Read the entry.

Here's my favourite part:

Examples within the following pages will be highly subjective.

I get that you think it was a wallbanger/idiot ball-fest/too far for willing suspension of disbelief, but seriously guy, just relax a bit and accept that not everybody will see it the same way.