Greer the mutineer

[Jeff-B]

I believe Young's words to Greer in Air part 1 were "Consider your charges dropped."( throws him a gun) "Take your anger issues out on whoever is attacking the base."

Granted, I don't think that statement was made officially in writing and up the chain of command, but his most superior officer on Icarus directly told him that the charges were dropped.

[aretood2]

I believe Young's words to Greer in Air part 1 were "Consider your charges dropped."( throws him a gun) "Take your anger issues out on whoever is attacking the base."

Granted, I don't think that statement was made officially in writing and up the chain of command, but his most superior officer on Icarus directly told him that the charges were dropped.

And he was apealing to a superior officer for help, he was not shouting
"ROIT!" like Spencer.

[Count]

See, I'm of two minds in regards to Greer's actions.

firstly, Telford was in command, he ordered Greer to stay in his quarters. However, Greer was being confined without charge (Charges were dropped, remember?). I don't quite know exactly what laws US troops have in regards to those kind of circumstances. So i wouldn't say Greer was mutinying, it was just "disobeying orders", as opposed to "mutiny".

Mutiny to me seems to be attacking or capturing telford or scientists and holding them hostage. All we wanted to was to see the transfer of his old CO back, if that's Mutiny, then you could say Jack mutinied against General Bauer to bring back General Hammond

[DigiFluid]

Not quite that simple. Young and Telford may have the same rank, but Young as Commander of Icarus Base outranks Telford. Given that Greer apparently assaulted Telford on base, Young would be the one ultimately responsible for deciding if Greer needed to be locked up pending charges. Yes, Telford can order it, but Young has the final say. Imagine this instead: Sgt Siler slugs Col. O'Neill for some reason and Col. O'Neill orders him arrested. Gen. Hammond has the authority to step in and countermand that if the situation warrants. That's what Young did. Yes, Telford can still file charges and Greer will be subject to military justice if and when they return to Earth, but it's Young's call as to whether he is to be 'detained' in the meantime. I mean, they are in the middle of space. The guy is going nowhere! Putting him in a makeshift 'Brig' pending their return to Earth amounts to imprisonment without trial in this situation. Young needs all the able-bodied and experienced men he can get. Telford's actions in ordering him confined again was nothing more than a power play and revenge.

My two cents! Take it for what it's worth.

I don't think another officer can order charges dropped.... I mean, it's not a protocol violation, it's a criminal charge. Whether or not that's dropped is up to the victim, isn't it?

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

I don't think another officer can order charges dropped.... I mean, it's not a protocol violation, it's a criminal charge. Whether or not that's dropped is up to the victim, isn't it?

I agree that Young doesn't have the right to supersede Telford's right to have charges filed - but he does have the right to say how Greer is treated in the meantime. We are talking military justice here, not civil. The commanding officer of the base has a lot more power than say a mayor does in similar circumstances. He has the right to order a military review of the situation before it ever goes to trial. There are two types of punishment - one is non-judicial, like an article 15, ie demotion and/or fine; and judicial resulting in dishonorable discharge and or prison time.

Striking a superior officer is a very serious offense and Greer is probably looking at Leavenworth unless there are some extremely extenuating circumstances - ie if there are witnesses who can state that Greer was acting to defend another or that Young left the Sgt no choice but to defend himself, even then the military tends to side with the officer. But given the circumstances of having the base under attack, Young had the right to suspend the charges and put Greer back on duty. And that's basically what has continued to be the case on Destiny.

Telford, having assumed command of the Destiny, slapped the Sgt back in the brig without considering the 'bigger picture.' Given that his command is obviously 'temporary,' it was a petty move. Young is the one who decides how Greer is treated aboard Destiny and Telford should have respected that.

Two more cents

[Captain Obvious]

Greer tried to persuade Scott to let him out of that room, thus disobeying Telford's orders. Surely that counts as mutiny as much what Spencer did during the lottery.

I hope people aren't letting this go cos it was St Ronald of Greer going against Telford

Considering that Young was officially the Icarus base commander, and said this phase during the attack to Greer-

" Consider the charges dropped. Go take your anger out on them."

Technically, Telford no longer has the right to have him confined. The base commander dropped the charges without prejudice. Technically, Telford could get in trouble for unjustly relieving Greer of duty.

This means that technically Greer was in no way committing mutiny. By asking to be let out he was essentially doing what he is supposed to to, taking up a grievance with the next person up within the chain of command, Scott.

Technically....

[Rachel500]

I don't actually think Telford solely locked Greer up because of whatever incident happened between the two on Icarus.

I tend to think that Telford knew that Greer was the most likely to step in and disconnect the stones to bring back Young. Locking him up kept Greer out of the way and removed a risk to the mission from Telford's perspective - and it's clear from Scott and Greer's conversation that Greer would have done it.

Would it have been a worse case of mutiny had it happened than the one Spencer tried to incite?

It's still mutiny at the end of the day, still personally motivated to some degree, still has the want to survive at its core.

However, in a personality contest, Spencer has shown that he constantly thinks of himself; he hoardes food, he won't accept the lottery result because he wasn't chosen (if he had been would he have still tried to get more people on the shuttle - unlikely).

By contrast, Greer does seem more motivated by a desire to protect others and ensure the safety of all although undoubtedly his own survival is part of that; his displays of anger tend to be when someone has done something which goes against his own personal values of decency and behaviour. Moreoever, I do think Greer shows a respect for the chain of command: he doesn't protest when Telford arrives to have him locked up, he makes no move to attack Telford, he follows Scott's order to lower his weapon in Air, he follows TJ's order to leave, he clearly has an enormous respect and loyalty towards Young.

So I don't think Greer would mutiny without very good reason. By the time Scott and Greer talk, Young has made his surprise visit back to the Destiny after the FTL drop interrupts the stones - Scott has some idea that Young wanted the stones disconnected hinting that Telford's command is not something Young has agreed to. If Scott has shared this with Greer, then I can see Greer in believing that Telford has taken the command by force and Young is the rightful commander - believing that disconnecting the stones would be following the orders of the rightful chain of command and therefore not mutiny at all.

[Sgt Detritus]

yes to the first two, no to the third and what are you talking about to the last two.

Spencer is no Wile E Coyote if you ask me. For SGA Todd the Wraith was a Wile E Coyote.

As for the last two He-Man and the Thundercats were such goodie-goodies that I found myself cheering for the villains

[jelgate]

As for the last two He-Man and the Thundercats were such goodie-goodies that I found myself cheering for the villains

They were children cartoons. Their isn't much depth between good vs evil

[Avenger]

No, I did mean anger, but meaning that I think he has some baggage in his past that he is carrying around, which leads to some of his behaviors and some of the more violent episodes we've seen. Not the freaking out, surly kind of anger, but something slower and smoldering. I think he's hanging onto something that we won't understand for awhile.

None of Greer's use of violence that we've seen so far has been motivated by anger. Maybe his incident with Telford was, but nothing else so far.

When he put Rush down, he did it because it needed to be done. When he clocked Spencer, it was because it needed to be done. In both cases, the violence was very calculated and unemotional.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

None of Greer's use of violence that we've seen so far has been motivated by anger. Maybe his incident with Telford was, but nothing else so far.

When he put Greer down, he did it because it needed to be done. When he clocked Spencer, it was because it needed to be done. In both cases, the violence was very calculated and unemotional.

Indeed, at no point on screen has Greer lost his temper. Everyone labels him as a hot head yet he always remaisn very calm. He is good however at using violence, but he remains cold and detached and he always uses the violence with an objective in mind.

[Major Tyler]

Indeed, at no point on screen has Greer lost his temper. Everyone labels him as a hot head yet he always remaisn very calm. He is good however at using violence, but he remains cold and detached and he always uses the violence with an objective in mind.

I agree. Even when he kicked Rush, Rush clearly wasn't hurt...just embarrassed. Greer has some issues with tact, but he's not "mindlessly violent" like some people claim. I wouldn't be afraid of pissing off Greer as long as I didn't threaten him. I know the worst he might do is knock me on my ass with the limited amount of force necessary...and I also know that I would probably deserve it.

[justanotherjen]

I think the whole point of that scene, and parts of the episode as a whole, was to question what right Earth had to dictate to them in these extreme circumstances? Young was commander of Icarus base, out ranking Telford who was assigned to lead the mission through the gate to the 9th chevron address - but that's not what happened in the end. Young is the de facto commander of the Destiny mission. Having another person suddenly show up and state I'm in command without anyway to verify that and then have them institute a life and death plan without permission of those being placed at risk ... is asking for mutiny. The situation is outside the normal constraints of a military command structure. Young's answer to O'Neill in the beginning that he will take his orders 'under advisement' constitutes the same thing - it's a statement recognizing that they are on their own and demanding the right to make their own decisions. Young's briefing at the end fairly well cements that idea.

Just my two cents

yes this. That's exactly how I saw it. Greer doesn't exactly recognize Telford's authority on Destiny. Young has earned his trust and respect, Telford...not so much.

If Telford ever tried to take over Destiny again I have a feeling he will have a mutiny on his hands. He has no regard for the people on the ship. I mean, why would he, since he can easily cut his connection, tuck tail and run at the first sign of trouble. He doesn't have to live with the consequences of his actions while controlling Young's body. So why should the Destiny crew have any trust in him? Greer realizes that. Not to mention he couldn't stand the guy to begin with.

I want to know what Telford did to make Greer attack him. They keep saying he had it coming, which I fully believe given the way he has acted so far. He has no business being in command.

[Captain Obvious]

Telford has no business being in command.

Remember that Jack has stated Telford was NOT his first choice to lead the expedition. His first choice was, in fact, Young.

[justanotherjen]

Remember that Jack has stated Telford was NOT his first choice to lead the expedition. His first choice was, in fact, Young.

Yes, I remember that and Jack was right. I don't think Telford should have even been in the running for the position. He is too unwavering (which is probably why the military likes him...he's going to follow orders so they can control him). But that's going to get them all killed because he can't look at the bigger picture of what is happening on Destiny.

Young sees that. His crew is made up of mostly civilians, people he has almost no authority over. They are all scared and confused. He realized that he needed to take the plan to them and discuss the pros and cons first. Most likely he would have made the final decision but after weighing everyone's thoughts.

Not only that, but him doing that shows he trusts the crew to understand what is going on and come to their own logical conclusions. They, even Rush, probably would have been much more ready to accept the plan, given a little prep time and gone ahead with it.

Which leads me to a question: why the heck did they HAVE to do the plan right away? Rush was pushing for more time to shore up Destiny's systems, Young agreed they needed more time to analyze the situation from their end...the end that would have to deal with the consequences. Politics, I guess.

In the end, having Telford take command of the mission was the wrong choice. It was wrong on so many levels, the least of which was the fact he took over someone else's body long term. The people back on Earth need to start looking at this thing from a different point of view. They aren't there, they don't know what is really going on. They need to trust Young and Rush to do what is best for the crew and offer support and ideas but then step back.

And they need to get Telford off the project before he causes more damage.