Once you pick up a weapon...

[Phenom]

If I may offer my completely worthless opinion...

I think in a way both sides were right and both sides were wrong for different reasons.

First of all we need to look at ALL of these people as human. They're terrifed, confused, hopeless, on edge...the list goes on. So at least in Lt. James rifflebutting the civilian it was more of a reflex of a terrifed and angry soldier, I didn't sense any melicious intention behind it..but thats just me.

Col. Young is clearly compromised as a leader, he is emotional and irrational, HOWEVER that doesn't change the fact the in terms of military action he is the best qualified to lead. The civilian authority is a little trickier. Wray clearly has her own motives. So the best solution would be to have a small group of civilians to make non-military decisions (that doesn't not exclude them from weighing in on those issues however.

But what is obivious to me is that trying to subdue the military on the ship by force is the wrong thing to do. What needs to happen is a daily "town hall" meeting in the gate room or mess hall to dicuss all issues

Yep Young is compromised as a leader, but name one leader on the planet who isn't compromised in some form. He made an error in how he handled Rush on the planet but he remains the most competent and qualified to lead. Wray couldn't lie straight in bed and would simply be doing the bidding of whatever puppet master was pulling her strings on Earth. Rush has no puppet master, except for his own personal ambitions to do whatever it is that he wants to eventually do. So it certainly appears as though everybody has their pros and cons. In my opinion, better the devil you know and lets be honest, Young hasn't done too bad given the circumstances.

The townhall idea is a good one. It seems the most efficient way to lead would be to identify those with leadership qualities in key areas and consult with the leaders of those portfolios on a regular basis.

[Coronach]

The townhall idea is a good one. It seems the most efficient way to lead would be to identify those with leadership qualities in key areas and consult with the leaders of those portfolios on a regular basis.

I third this assertion. Hopefully Young will realize this. Yes, such meetings could get hectic at times...but they really are necessary in being a good leader. That, or something very similar in idea needs to be set up.

[meo3000]

O'Neill would relieve Young if he could, but he cant. Young is stuck with the job, unless he resign his commission which he will never do as long as Rush lives and plays with everyones lives on a daily basis.

So were back to square one, a SGC expedition, with a military leader.

Why would Young give any authority to Rush who tried to pin a murder on him? Why would he give any authority to Wray who didnt have any problem putting him on trial only to get his job?

Many of you say Young need to step down, i dont agree but lets say youre right, you cant replace him with someone worst. Remember, we have an outside the box perspective here. The civilian maybe against Young but are not for Rush, and Wray only has her IOA title to back her supposed authority.

The way i see it, Young is like the parent figure and the civilian as a group are going through the stages of an adolescents life. First they trust blindly, then question authority and push to see how far they can get, then compromise and realize that theyll only be fully independent the day they leave the house. The only way to do that is to leave the ship, that means forgetting about getting back to Earth.

Some think Young is too hard on the civilian, do you really think Telford would be has nice? If Young is a dictator, then Telford is the Starwars emperor. Wait till the Lucian Alliance gets hold of Destiny, with Rush trying to make a deal to save his own skin and Wray is scared off her mind. Wait till Young and his dictatorial regime put their lives on the line for this bunch of ungrateful whining civilians. Theyll come around and acknowledge the fact that after all, Young is not that bad at all.

[Sami_]

you stop being a civilian...

all this griping about the way the military treated the civilians..... once you pick up a weapon in direct opposition to a soldier you are no longer a civilian....

and if you are unarmed but are aiding those taking up arms, then you are on their side

IMHO, LT James was completely justified in rifle-butting that one guy.... 1st there was an armed mutiny on board the ship. 2. because said mutineers are armed, said mutineers cease being civilians. 3. the guy that James hit was moving towards her and was not listening to commands. 4. it set an example and ensured that no one else would choose to not listen to Greer


this isn't just a bunch of civilians protesting peacfully
this was an armed attempted coup d'etat...
Young, Greer, and the rest of the military were completely justified in all of their actions for that one simple fact.

Not true, at least in the United States, where civilians have the constitutional right to own firearms and be prepared to use them in defense of liberty. Now I'm not saying I agree with the actions of those on Destiny but its definetly possible for civilians to bare arms against soldiers without becoming enemy combatants in the eyes of the law.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

Not true, at least in the United States, where civilians have the constitutional right to own firearms and be prepared to use them in defense of liberty. Now I'm not saying I agree with the actions of those on Destiny but its definetly possible for civilians to bare arms against soldiers without becoming enemy combatants in the eyes of the law.

I love that amendment. The right to bear arms.

[FallenAngelII]

you stop being a civilian...

all this griping about the way the military treated the civilians..... once you pick up a weapon in direct opposition to a soldier you are no longer a civilian....

and if you are unarmed but are aiding those taking up arms, then you are on their side

IMHO, LT James was completely justified in rifle-butting that one guy.... 1st there was an armed mutiny on board the ship. 2. because said mutineers are armed, said mutineers cease being civilians. 3. the guy that James hit was moving towards her and was not listening to commands. 4. it set an example and ensured that no one else would choose to not listen to Greer


this isn't just a bunch of civilians protesting peacfully
this was an armed attempted coup d'etat...
Young, Greer, and the rest of the military were completely justified in all of their actions for that one simple fact.

They were armed when now? We saw one guy wielding one gun which was taken away from a soldier who happened to be caught on the wrong side of the divide. And he wasn't even in the scene where James pistol-whipped that other guy. That guy (the pistol-whipped one) was unarmed.

I love this revisionist history where a bunch of military fan(atic)s are running around claiming this was somehow an armed coup d'etat. Because clearly it's an armed coup if one guy is shown wielding one weapon which was confiscated from an enemy combattant.

No one threatened anyone except Eli with a gun and even then Chloe told that guy to lower his gun.

[An-Alteran]

They were armed when now? We saw one guy wielding one gun which was taken away from a soldier who happened to be caught on the wrong side of the divide. And he wasn't even in the scene where James pistol-whipped that other guy. That guy (the pistol-whipped one) was unarmed.

I love this revisionist history where a bunch of military fan(atic)s are running around claiming this was somehow an armed coup d'etat. Because clearly it's an armed coup if one guy is shown wielding one weapon which was confiscated from an enemy combattant.

No one threatened anyone except Eli with a gun and even then Chloe told that guy to lower his gun.

Uh:

I love this revisionist history where a bunch of military fan(atic)s are running around claiming this was somehow an armed coup d'etat. Because clearly it's an armed coup if one guy is shown wielding one weapon which was confiscated from an enemy combattant.

Revisionist history?
It is a TV show.

Yeash. What is it with people.

The man stood up to James. He was ordered to stand down and get on the ground.

He refused.

She made him comply in the easiest and most efficient manner.

Worse happens to kids at middle school.

What is it with the naiveté of most people these days?

"Oh boo hoo she punched me!" /cry

Oy vey.

[major davis]

Wait, which of the civillians had a weapon?

I don't remember any of them having guns.

When they traded Eli for food and water one guy had a gun.

[Shpinxinator]

Yep Young is compromised as a leader, but name one leader on the planet who isn't compromised in some form. He made an error in how he handled Rush on the planet but he remains the most competent and qualified to lead. Wray couldn't lie straight in bed and would simply be doing the bidding of whatever puppet master was pulling her strings on Earth. Rush has no puppet master, except for his own personal ambitions to do whatever it is that he wants to eventually do. So it certainly appears as though everybody has their pros and cons. In my opinion, better the devil you know and lets be honest, Young hasn't done too bad given the circumstances.

In a perfect world, I would agree. However....the people on the ship for some reason refuse to realize they are in a survival siituation, in this case normal chain of command doesn't work anymore. I mean there are still people wanting to ditch the ship for the first habitable planet they find, regardless of the fact that very few of the non-military personel would have the skills the survive in the wild, hunting, fishing, filtering water, defense from predators, building shelters.

Spoiler:

I mean come ON!

I doubt any of the civilians would have those skills, unless as personal hobbies and even then it takes years to hone those skills for practical use. And these are smart people, they know that is probley true and YET they still want to put themselves into a situation that would be more deadly then staying on Destiny. They refuse to accept their situation, so they need to follow those who have accepted it.

[Jper]

When they traded Eli for food and water one guy had a gun.

Which they got from Airman Dunning.

[Shpinxinator]

Which they got from Airman Dunning.

True, but it doesn't matter where they got the gun from, it was still picked up and pointed at someone else.

[Jper]

True, but it doesn't matter where they got the gun from, it was still picked up and pointed at someone else.

Oh yeah that civilian was an idiot we can agree on that. And he was quickly told to put it down and stow it away by Chloe and the others.

[garhkal]

Either way your sign up to obey the military command and structure, you do what you're damn well told. And it wouldn't matter if there was a civilian in charge, if Wray was in command the civilians would still have no control, no greater freedoms, it would be up to Wray.

You got that wrong dude. if it is a Civilian/scientist structure with mil defense, there is NO following of the mil command structure all the time. Only in certain circumstances does that happen. Who knows whether the icarus area was that way or not.
BUT i will give you that they would still be under someone's authority.

But Weir had the support of all the people under her, and she consulted them all the time in their areas of expertise. Also, she was a civilian, and that alone legitimized what she was doing to the other civilians and gave her some measure of authority over the military.

Good point. Young does not seem to value let alone even TAKE inputs from the civilians, where at least wier almost always did.

So a civilian is morally a better person than a member of the military, basically? Someone's being in the military makes them inherently unfit to command?

The difference is, nearly every civilian run org takes inputs from everyone else, before the 'head' makes decisions. Mil run ones, especially how Young is showing he handles things, seem to NOT care what others think.

I think Young needs to stay in command - but change the way he commands. Come on, you know he can do it!

If he can do that, i will change my view of him for the better. BUT with the way things have so far gone, i won't be holding my breath.

Part of being a leader is to take advice from your subordinates.

Which so far, Young does not show he seems to be doing.

[asdf1239]

I dont get why people still argue about this. Stargate is basicaly a military based show.

you cannot enjoy sgu because of its divergence from previous shows and at the same time use a characteristic of the old ones as an argument.

[jelgate]

you cannot enjoy sgu because of its divergence from previous shows and at the same time use a characteristic of the old ones as an argument.

Sure you can. As long as all the shows have the same element. Just because SGU is different doesn't mean its cut off all ties to SG1/SGA