'Divided' (112) General Discussion

[harakiri]

You are comparing nations to small military units. The analogy doesn’t hold. It is apples to oranges. The closest approximation to Destiny’s situation would be a ship lost in the middle of the ocean out of contact with its command. Since that isn't possible now, it would have to be a ship of several hundred years ago before radio.

I don’t agree that Young is a dictatorship. He is the ranking military officer and has legitimate command. I think it was a big mistake to lie about marooning Rush. However I think it was within his purview as commander to openly do so. Rush tried to frame him and remove him from command. On the open sea if someone from the crew tried something similar the captain was well within his right to deliver capital punishment to maintain discipline.

I get the feeling you are hung up on the military label. Just because they are in the military doesn’t mean they are evil or corrupt leaders. O’Neil and Hammond were military and excellent leaders. Kinsey was a civilian and was very corrupt and cowardly. It all depends who is doing the leading. I think Wray would make a far worse leader than Young. She has already demonstrated that she is far more self serving and has no real combat experience. Young definitely has his problems but who would be better is hard to say. All of SGU’s characters are flawed.

My choice to take over command would be TJ. In Water she demonstrated that she would make a very effective leader. Imo of all the crew she would make the best choice.

I do agree with you here. The only leader that could lead both sides of this "war" could be TJ,but the civilians would probably see her as a military and that she`s not good enough.

And Gollumpus wrote : "And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone."

I totally agree with this. What is it that they want? Is there something I miss here? As far as I have seen its only the fight between Young and Rush that is used as a problem with the military. I have seen every episode more than once and I cant see the military like a unit have done anything wrong against the others. In "Light" Spencer did claim that the shuttle could take more people,but it could not. Young did a very wise choice when he did choose TJ as they would need a medic,and the other choice had to be Scott if they was even gonna go anywhere. Actually the only violence I remember before the Young and Rush incident is when Greer did put Spencer out when he tried to make people think they had a chance to all be on that shuttle. If am not mistaken Spencer was military,so that also was`nt an act towards civilians.

As I see it,the civilians are creating a problem here that seem miss placed. They should almost "hate" Rush for getting them there,and then they embrace him and Wray like if they were heroes that came to rescue them. And the only thing civilians now have done is to make their own situation worse,and that`s all their fault. The military did not create this problem,Wray did.

What Young should do now (IMHO) is to have a speech telling them all about what did happen on that planet with Rush,and tell him straight out how he feels about it. Then he should also show the movie to the people,and state that he should`nt have left Rush there even what he had done to him. This might buy him some trust among the people,and then he can continue with what he also did on that alien ship,freeing Rush and even tried to go back to the ship and maybe look for Chloe together.
The comment "We`ll never be done" should be a major factor in his speech about the situation on the planet. The very big difference between Young and Rush is that Young regrets thing,and Rush has a very hard time regretting anything. Young has changed a lot since the start,I`ll bet we`ll see Rush do the same,and I sure it is for the better (how can it be worse?),but I cant see him become all "good" .

Before I forget,was`nt there also an "violence"-kinda situation there before Justice the Rush going crazy incident in the hall at a person (I don`t remember the name of)? And we also have the Spencer doing something like that,and Young had to use some force towards him,but then again...he`s not an civilian.

In the end,the only leader for ALL the people there,like a link between military and civilians might be TJ. She is more like a civilian than military in my mind. A little bit of both cant hurt?

[EllieVee]

I'm just going to snip everything bar the paragraph I want to reply to for space purposes.

The military ran Icarus base. The move from Icarus to Destiny does not mean that all bets are off as to how things are done. Young would see the situation as being nothing more than a change of venue for his command. Why would he feel obligated to consult with Wray on any issue beyond her supposed expertise in HR related issues? In pretty much any kind of emergency, Young would consult the science types in regard to what sort of issues may arise with Destiny (power, life support, shields, weapons). What would Wray be able to contribute to the discussion?

My view is that the military who ran the base were very different to the actual expedition people, of whom Rush was one and Telford another. All Young did was run the base in support of the expedition and quest to solve the ninth chevron. This doesn't automatically place him in charge of the civilians even if O'Neill says so because O'Neill would have no authority to put anyone in charge unless the IOA agreed to it.

[Commander Zelix]

Here's my take on the military v.s. civilian conflict:

Earlier in the season, when we didn't have the aliens to worry about, the crew's problems were more scientific, and there was still a chance of getting home, the civilians had a much better case than they do now. Up until "Justice" the only hints of a military threat came from the alien ship detaching from the hull at the end of "Air" and the alien creatures in "Time". Now the crew faces a clear threat from the blue aliens with the reverse-articulated legs. If our heroes (and antiheroes) are going to survive, the military has to have a mostly free hand in dictating strategy. Simply put, they are needed more now than they were before. There are also two other major problems with the civilians being in charge. The first is that, in staging this coup, they escalated things in a big way, and therefore should probably be trusted less for it. Second, due to his rank, Colonel Young is the clear leader of the military personnel, and if the military retains control, the crew, but the civilians have no clear leader. They have both Rush and Wray, with Wray probably having a slight advantage in the court of crew opinion. Lack of a clear leader would make the ship much harder for the civilians to govern the ship effectively, never mind the inefficient nature of a bureaucracy.

And most importantly, the military already works under the civilian authority back on earth. Both Wray and Young report there regularly using the stones.

[harakiri]

I'm just going to snip everything bar the paragraph I want to reply to for space purposes.



My view is that the military who ran the base were very different to the actual expedition people, of whom Rush was one and Telford another. All Young did was run the base in support of the expedition and quest to solve the ninth chevron. This doesn't automatically place him in charge of the civilians even if O'Neill says so because O'Neill would have no authority to put anyone in charge unless the IOA agreed to it.

Is there something I miss here? I have not seen that IOA HAD to agree to everything. So far IOA have been more a pain in the a** than doing much good. I had the feeling that most of the times general Hammond took orders from the President when it was a BIG thing going on. By all means, I can be wrong here,yeah even very,totaly and completely wrong..

Lets say O'Neill reports whats happened to the president (which I guess he would) , I would think he`d take O'Neill`s advice to who should be the leader on the ship and think that GENERAL O'Neill would know better than some people working behind desks at the IOA. Just my thoughts anyway. But still,mostly this was a question about who the president listen to the most ,military (generals) or the IOA? Would guess it could be around 50/50 at least.. And when it comes to O'Neill,is there anyone else that knows more about these kinda missions than him? But this is not by far a situation Jack has been in,but he should be the first one a president ask for advice.

[wolverine_nl]

Great episode, never was bored, good pace.
I am on a 50% - 50%, i feel that the civilians have the right to lead with support of the military, but on the other hand the civilians showed not able to run things in balance, the civilians have hidden agenda's (powerhungry) or like Rush, wanting to get onto Destiny

[EllieVee]

Is there something I miss here? I have not seen that IOA HAD to agree to everything. So far IOA have been more a pain in the a** than doing much good. I had the feeling that most of the times general Hammond took orders from the President when it was a BIG thing going on. By all means, I can be wrong here,yeah even very,totaly and completely wrong..

When the stargate was just a US program, yes.

Lets say O'Neill reports whats happened to the president (which I guess he would) , I would think he`d take O'Neill`s advice to who should be the leader on the ship and think that GENERAL O'Neill would know better than some people working behind desks at the IOA. Just my thoughts anyway. But still,mostly this was a question about who the president listen to the most ,military (generals) or the IOA? Would guess it could be around 50/50 at least.. And when it comes to O'Neill,is there anyone else that knows more about these kinda missions than him? But this is not by far a situation Jack has been in,but he should be the first one a president ask for advice.

But the President is not in charge of the IOA.

[theta123]

I liked this episode.

And when those 3 alien ships came, i was just hoping to see all those Cannon's back into action but appearntly not . That was the only letdown of this episode's.


Cant wait for next episode

[Phenom]

I guess with the Military personnel, generally what you see is what you get. People don't join the military for the money or the power. If you wanted that you would join the private sector. That is why having the military in charge is a safer bet than the unknown civillians. Wray is a snake in the grass, as is Rush (but I still love him), Eli is like a puppy who loves his owner Young unconditionally and although Young isn't perfect, at least he doesn't have any alterior motives besides the safety and wellbeing of the crew.

[Jper]

Eli is like a puppy who loves his owner Young unconditionally

Which is really really starting to annoy me. Eli needs to grow a pair and tell Young to shove it. I bet no one else knows that Eli is spying on them for Young. If they did I don't think they'd be as kind towards him as they are no. No I don't understand Eli on this point and I think it's very likely that the Young-Eli alliance won't last. We saw the first crack in Space, where Eli, yelled at Young, that he shouldn't have left Rush on the planet then.

[Blackhole]

I do agree with you here. The only leader that could lead both sides of this "war" could be TJ,but the civilians would probably see her as a military and that she`s not good enough.

And Gollumpus wrote : "And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone."

I totally agree with this. What is it that they want? Is there something I miss here? As far as I have seen its only the fight between Young and Rush that is used as a problem with the military. I have seen every episode more than once and I cant see the military like a unit have done anything wrong against the others. In "Light" Spencer did claim that the shuttle could take more people,but it could not. Young did a very wise choice when he did choose TJ as they would need a medic,and the other choice had to be Scott if they was even gonna go anywhere. Actually the only violence I remember before the Young and Rush incident is when Greer did put Spencer out when he tried to make people think they had a chance to all be on that shuttle. If am not mistaken Spencer was military,so that also was`nt an act towards civilians.

As I see it,the civilians are creating a problem here that seem miss placed. They should almost "hate" Rush for getting them there,and then they embrace him and Wray like if they were heroes that came to rescue them. And the only thing civilians now have done is to make their own situation worse,and that`s all their fault. The military did not create this problem,Wray did.

What Young should do now (IMHO) is to have a speech telling them all about what did happen on that planet with Rush,and tell him straight out how he feels about it. Then he should also show the movie to the people,and state that he should`nt have left Rush there even what he had done to him. This might buy him some trust among the people,and then he can continue with what he also did on that alien ship,freeing Rush and even tried to go back to the ship and maybe look for Chloe together.
The comment "We`ll never be done" should be a major factor in his speech about the situation on the planet. The very big difference between Young and Rush is that Young regrets thing,and Rush has a very hard time regretting anything. Young has changed a lot since the start,I`ll bet we`ll see Rush do the same,and I sure it is for the better (how can it be worse?),but I cant see him become all "good" .

Before I forget,was`nt there also an "violence"-kinda situation there before Justice the Rush going crazy incident in the hall at a person (I don`t remember the name of)? And we also have the Spencer doing something like that,and Young had to use some force towards him,but then again...he`s not an civilian.

In the end,the only leader for ALL the people there,like a link between military and civilians might be TJ. She is more like a civilian than military in my mind. A little bit of both cant hurt?

First off I want to say that I think the conflict and tension between the civilian and military contingent has been artificially ramped up by the writers for dramatic purposes. The whole coup d'état scenario was imo very unrealistic and premature.

That being said, harakiri’s suggestion to come clean to everyone about what happened on the planet is a good one. Young should explain why Rush was a destabilizing and self-serving influence. He confronted him and Rush made it clear in no uncertain terms he was going to continue to do his best to undermine Young’s command. Young then made a command decision to leave him. All this is true but unfortunately Young acted out of anger and should never have marooned him. His action was a big mistake. If he had brought him back and exposed his and Wray’s (likely) framing attempt he would have had the moral justification to impose harsh punishment to both of them. Unfortunately as it stands now he looks deceitful and dangerous.

Given the civilians were willing to stage a coup the only way Young is going to continue to govern is through excessive force from the military. I don’t think it is practical or advised to use force on a spaceship to control a much larger group of technically skilled individuals; they are going to feel threatened and repressed. The potential for catastrophic sabotage from any of them is far too great. Young was willing to step down when he was accused of murder to prevent exactly this type of scenario from happening. I think he should go to Earth offer to step down and allow them to promote Scott or TJ to command. I believe Scott is the next in line but imo TJ would make a better leader.

Trying to establish a committee based civilian leadership like what Kaiphantom and others have maintained sounds nice on paper but imo isn’t practical or effective. As Gollumpus has astutely shown, a single commander needs to be designated; someone the military contingent will support. A civilian leader skilled enough like Weir could take over; but so far none are present that are qualified.

[mjwalshe]

Which is really really starting to annoy me. Eli needs to grow a pair and tell Young to shove it. I bet no one else knows that Eli is spying on them for Young. If they did I don't think they'd be as kind towards him as they are no. No I don't understand Eli on this point and I think it's very likely that the Young-Eli alliance won't last. We saw the first crack in Space, where Eli, yelled at Young, that he shouldn't have left Rush on the planet then.

but Eli can see the flaws in Rush much more so than some of the other civilians - but he is ebeing set up to be devided makes for better storylines

[Jper]

but Eli can see the flaws in Rush much more so than some of the other civilians - but he is ebeing set up to be devided makes for better storylines

Huh? What has my original comment to do with Rush? I never mentioned Rush. It's about Young and Eli.

[Petra]

I don't have time to read through 13 pages of animated discussion, so I apologise in advance for repeating what's already been said. And in any case, this post is all about my gushing at how good “Divided” was. And I almost never gush

I loved this episode. I mean really, truly, loved it. It replaced Air III as my favourite SGU ep and is already among my favourites in the franchise. Great job TPTB. Why did I love it? Because it had a perfect blend of character drama and action. It was fast paced and full of tension – I love this feeling when a tv show has me on the edge of my seat, biting my nails (metaphorically speaking ) – but at the same time it allowed time to further develop the characters. Script was quite ingenious, acting outstanding and CGI impeccable. Now, onto the characters:

From what I've seen so far on the forum people aren't thrilled with Young’s actions. Well, I, for one, am. I thought he handled the situation very well. I was very impressed with how calm, confident and in control he appeared to be, at the same time managing to exude this “Do not mess with me! I’m dangerous and you don’t want to get on the wrong side of me!” aura. Additional points for his intelligence, ingenuity and quick thinking on his feet (Eli, space suits, bringing specialist from Earth to remove tracking device from Rush). The problem I had with SG-1 was that while we were often told how smart, ruthless and dangerous Jack was it was *shown* very rarely. Most of the time when he crossed to “the dark side” and his black ops training kicked in Daniel, Sam or Hammond were there to rein him in. Young doesn’t have anybody who’d do it for him and I love seeing all this military training put to use.

The only thing that disappointed me was the end. I fully expected him to come clean with the civilians, confirm that yes, he did leave Rush behind but he’s not proud of it and also tell them of Rush framing him for murder. Maybe even that he saved Rush’s life onboard alien ship? That he let everybody go without a word was a bit of a let down, although I’m sure it will come into play later.

Finally, I must praise Luis Ferreira for his acting. I was very impressed and IMO it’s his best performance to date. On a totally shallow note, I haven’t thought him to be particularly handsome but he looked great in this episode. I may have to rethink my original assessment.

Greer continues to be my fave character. Love his unyielding loyalty to Young and following his orders to the letter. His comment after disabling civilian guards made me smile. Go Greer!

I think it’s great that James has something to do in every ep. Her lashing out – while still following her orders and not inflicting more damage - was a nice continuation of her scenes in the last ep.

TJ was great too. I loved her unshakeable belief in Young and argument with Chloe.

Speaking of Chloe, I really liked her development. I disagree with her decisions and IMO the fact that instead of talking about what happened to her with her boyfriend – who obviously made an effort to be there for her, was patient and understanding – she sided with Rush, who’s responsible for her father’s death shows that at this point she’s very confused. I was also hoping that she’d ask Rush how he got out of his tank and generally disappointed that she turned her back on her friends without giving them a chance to explain themselves. Having said that, I think her behavior was very interesting and she’s one of the biggest winners of this ep.

I don’t have much to say about the others. Eli was loveable, naïve and smart as always. Loved how he was stalling (and how good he was at it) to give Young and Greer more time and how hurt he was by Chloe’s behavior. I liked Scott. Rush and Wray were themselves, entertaining as always. It was nice to see Brody, Volker and Park again.

Loved seeing Dr Brightman. That’s how crossovers should be done.

All in all, I found myself siding with the military. I know I should have more sympathy towards the civilians, but IMO they didn’t have good enough reasons for their little mutiny and the military guys had a right to be pissed at their stunt. Rush wants to study the ship without anybody looking over his shoulder and giving him orders, Wray wants to go home and probably made some deal with him that if he helped her become the leader she’d let him do whatever he wants. But the rest of the civilians? I suppose Wray told them about Young’s attempt to kill Rush and convinced them he therefore couldn’t be trusted and anyone else could be next – but I don’t think it would be enough for everybody to suddenly forget all the good leadership decisions Young made and decide to forcibly remove him from command. Especially since the military and the civilians up to that point seemed to rather get along.

To sum it up, great ep, made even better by all the discussions it started.

10/10

[Egle01]

Loved seeing Dr Brightman. That’s how crossovers should be done.

She is from SG-1 S8, right?

[jelgate]

She is from SG-1 S8, right?

Yes. I believe she was in Lockdown. I honestly didn't pick it up until someone said so