'Divided' (112) General Discussion

[Joachim]

No. Icarus was a base set up by the government/IOA. Destiny is so far gone that it can hardly be called a "government base". It is purely under the control of Young, not the military as a whole, and there isn't much that the United States can do about that.

It is own entity, albeit loosely affiliated.

[jelgate]

I can't, because I don't. Those firebases are only there because the US, or other countries civilian governments are allowing them. Afghanistan's civilian government is also allowing them to operate in that mode, but they can be revoked and recalled at anytime... by civilians.



That is one point of view.... but Destiny is far, far away from Earth, that it might as well be it's own country. It's a unique situation to be sure, but 80 people have to live together with not much help from anyone else; they have to form their own community to survive. And such a community under military rule, while necessary at first, cannot continue without undue hardship. The military exists to serve society... not vice versa.

I challenge those that disagree again... if you feel so strongly that the military is a better authority, then state up front what military dictatorship you'd like to live under. In short, put your principles into action. There is a very good reason why they are generally bad. If you need help deciding where to go, allow me to list the countries currently in one:

Burma
Fiji
Guinea
Libya
*****
North Korea

I recommend the last one, myself. It's been real good to it's citizens.

Edit: Heh, the forum censored one of the countries. If any mods(or anyone else) wants to take a look at this, I got my list from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship

Scroll down a bit to the list of current cases, and you can find the one it censored, heh.

I never said I believe in military complerete rule but complete civilian rule is just as bad

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I can't, because I don't. Those firebases are only there because the US, or other countries civilian governments are allowing them. Afghanistan's civilian government is also allowing them to operate in that mode, but they can be revoked and recalled at anytime... by civilians.

So surround one of those firebases with Taliban, and now no matter what someone orders they can't get out. Still makes it a military command.

[Kaiphantom]

So surround one of those firebases with Taliban, and now no matter what someone orders they can't get out. Still makes it a military command.

If ordered, by a civilian authority, the military in the firebase WILL attempt to fight it's way out. And considering they are better armed than the Taliban, well, it won't be too much of a fight. Oh, you're welcome for responding to you, while you have avoided answering my question. I assume you'll do so at your next convenience.

I never said I believe in military complerete rule but complete civilian rule is just as bad

If you have a better idea, humanity would like to hear it. As far as I know, though, you have two choices: Civilian or military rule. One need only look at history to see which one has played out better for it's citizens. Like platoon above, you haven't answered my question: Which country, ruled by the military, would you like to go to? Given your tone, it seems you prefer such a rule over civilian. Because you have avoided answering, I can only conclude that you like your comfy chair, in your warm house, and your nice laptop computer; all made possible by the civilian authority in the country you are located in.

Wanna take a guess as to why North Korean civilians don't have internet access? Or even electricity?

[jelgate]

If ordered, by a civilian authority, the military in the firebase WILL attempt to fight it's way out. And considering they are better armed than the Taliban, well, it won't be too much of a fight. Oh, you're welcome for responding to you, while you have avoided answering my question. I assume you'll do so at your next convenience.



If you have a better idea, humanity would like to hear it. As far as I know, though, you have two choices: Civilian or military rule. One need only look at history to see which one has played out better for it's citizens. Like platoon above, you haven't answered my question: Which country, ruled by the military, would you like to go to? Given your tone, it seems you prefer such a rule over civilian. Because you have avoided answering, I can only conclude that you like your comfy chair, in your warm house, and your nice laptop computer; all made possible by the civilian authority in the country you are located in.

Wanna take a guess as to why North Korean civilians don't have internet access? Or even electricity?

Why don't you lose the snark. Our RL societies aren't compatiable because we aren't a dictatership at all. But with the Destiny thier has been no effort to find a cooperative method like most developed countries

[Kaiphantom]

Why don't you lose the snark. Our RL societies aren't compatiable because we aren't a dictatership at all. But with the Destiny thier has been no effort to find a cooperative method like most developed countries

That's exactly right. And why is that? Because the military has assumed control, and doesn't want to entertain the idea of a cooperative method.

And it *still* doesn't change the fact that the "cooperative" method in 95% of developed countries involves civilian rule of the military. If you think military rule is better, I welcome you to submit your evidence. As for mine, well, I submit all of history and our current state of affairs, in addition to the specific evidence I presented above.

No form of human government is perfect. Churchill once famously said, "Democracy is the worst form of human government; except for all the others that have been tried." The reason military is bad, is because you don't have a say. You merely have to follow orders, or be shot. If I am the military commander in charge, and I tell you to stop posting or else, what would you do? That's the grim reality. A benevolent dictator with absolute power is actually the best situation, but humans aren't perfect. We all have dark desires in us, and a civilian government does a better job of keeping it in check. And regardless of how good your "perfect leader" might be, sooner or later, someone else is gonna fill those shoes; what are the chances they are near perfect, too?

Last point of fact; even if we declare the Destiny crew to be under Earth, that means that technically they are under the IOA, a civilian authority. Who is the IOA representative on Destiny? Wray.

But as Young proved earlier, they aren't under Earth's control, so they have their own society now.

[carmencatalina]

I'm enjoying the "lively" discussion on the boards today - I can barely keep up! It seems to me that this episode was a good one - it certainly has "divided" the boards into differing opinions about the actions of the people on Destiny, on Col. Young's actions and qualities as a leader, and in general on the military/civilian split.

I can't remember the last time a TV episode has resulted in my reading so many posts about aspects of democracy, dictatorships, martial law, and leadership.

[CCA]

Somebody needs to bust out WHY CAN'T WE BE FRIENDS song I know Greer had one of those hand held radios, he should play that. J/K anyhow. I really don't have too much to say but some quick notes till I can truly sit down and pull the episode apart.

Chloe, she wasn't to annoying for me this time around. Though I loved Scott gave her the shun, which if I was him I would.

TJ the line about "this is war, and this is what we are good at." Yeah she delievered that line great, and I think it was freaking great.

The scene where Young and Greer are running along the ship, yeah I had this image of Young getting stuck in the hole when they jumped down.

Though I don't agree with the civillians, I kind of liked how Wray was portrayed in this. She really stood out in this episode. Eli, caught in between in every sense of the word.

All in all, I really enjoyed the episode.

[Blackhole]

Perhaps you don't realize it, but a vast majority of the military of free nations ARE under the control of civilians. In the US, the Commander-in-chief is the President; a civilian. The founding fathers did that very deliberately, because they felt the military should be under total control of civilians. So Wray's remarks, far from being "silly" were extremely intelligent.

If you disagree, feel free to leave your advanced western civilized country, and go live in a military dictatorship sometime.

Do you have any idea how many steps up the military chain of command there are above a typical small military unit until it reaches the civilian President? Are you suggesting that because the ultimate authority of our huge military is the President then Wray’s assertion has logical merit on Destiny and justifies their coup? Young should just politely acquiesce and step aside. This is especially convenient for Wray since she is the civilian she thinks should be in charge. Is this the rational you are defending?

How well do you think a “cooperative method of command” is going to work in a crisis? In the middle of an alien attack I can see several leaders sitting down and throwing ideas back and forth in committee to decide how to respond.

[Kaiphantom]

Do you have any idea how many steps up the military chain of command there are above a typical small military unit it reaches the civilian President?

Yes. But the fact remains that ultimate authority lies with both Congress and the President. Congress authorizes action, and the President has the final say of how and when to deploy.

Are you suggesting that because the ultimate authority of our huge military is the President then Wray’s assertion has logical merit on Destiny and justifies their coup?

Not just our military, but every first world nation on Earth. That provides all the logical merit that's needed. Unless, of course, you'd like to argue that North Korea is somehow better off than South Korea?

Young should just politely acquiesce and step aside. This is especially convenient for Wray since she is the civilian she thinks should be in charge. Is this the rational you are defending?

Pretty much. Young has already taken the ship under his own control, out from under Earth. He has formed his own military dictatorship where he has supreme authority. And since I answered your questions, perhaps you can answer mine: Do you think a supreme military authority is a good idea? If so, would you like to select which country under military dictatorship you'd like to move to, since you favor that style of government over a civilian one?

[Freshpez]

I'm almost going to declare a plot hole here for the sake of starting the mutiny.

Throughout the last few eps, the civilians have been muttering about Rush being abandoned by Young.

But have they been told that Young was framed by Rush? Have they been shown the video?

It would seem to me that the quickest way to have ended the standoff was for Eli to be sent into the civilian side of the line bearing his evidence of Rush's attempted framing. Wray and Rush would have lost support instantly. Young could also have mentioned the little matter of the Ancient Control Chair, and Rush's role in sending a scientist into a coma.

Couldn't Young have said something like, "So I hit him. I said, 'are we done?' We'll never be done he replied. So I head butted him. He was too heavy to drag back to the gate and get out alive, so I ran."

Where is that scientist and that chair by the way?

Secondly, did the crew forget already that Young voluntarily gave up command to Wray already? For the sake of unity in the crew when he'd been falsely accused of killing Spenser? Couldn't they have tried a sit in before locking the military in their rooms?

[Blackhole]

Yes. But the fact remains that ultimate authority lies with both Congress and the President. Congress authorizes action, and the President has the final say of how and when to deploy.

Not just our military, but every first world nation on Earth. That provides all the logical merit that's needed. Unless, of course, you'd like to argue that North Korea is somehow better off than South Korea?

Pretty much. Young has already taken the ship under his own control, out from under Earth. He has formed his own military dictatorship where he has supreme authority. And since I answered your questions, perhaps you can answer mine: Do you think a supreme military authority is a good idea? If so, would you like to select which country under military dictatorship you'd like to move to, since you favor that style of government over a civilian one?

You are comparing nations to small military units. The analogy doesn’t hold. It is apples to oranges. The closest approximation to Destiny’s situation would be a ship lost in the middle of the ocean out of contact with its command. Since that isn't possible now, it would have to be a ship of several hundred years ago before radio.

I don’t agree that Young is a dictatorship. He is the ranking military officer and has legitimate command. I think it was a big mistake to lie about marooning Rush. However I think it was within his purview as commander to openly do so. Rush tried to frame him and remove him from command. On the open sea if someone from the crew tried something similar the captain was well within his right to deliver capital punishment to maintain discipline.

I get the feeling you are hung up on the military label. Just because they are in the military doesn’t mean they are evil or corrupt leaders. O’Neil and Hammond were military and excellent leaders. Kinsey was a civilian and was very corrupt and cowardly. It all depends who is doing the leading. I think Wray would make a far worse leader than Young. She has already demonstrated that she is far more self serving and has no real combat experience. Young definitely has his problems but who would be better is hard to say. All of SGU’s characters are flawed.

My choice to take over command would be TJ. In Water she demonstrated that she would make a very effective leader. Imo of all the crew she would make the best choice.

[Khentkawes]

Rush is now clearly scared of Young - Carlyle is doing an amazing job of showing us how backed up against the wall Rush is feeling. But I disagree that Young's motivation was to save Rush's life. His first reaction to finding out that Rush was implanted with the alien device?

"T.J., get it out of him."

My thinking is that he would have gladly stood by and watched T.J. or anyone else just carve it out of him, whether or not he survived the operation (or dissection!) would have been completely secondary.

Unless I'm mistaken, Young didn't come up with the idea of getting an expert to help (Wray? Someone else?) - when T.J. protested that she didn't have the skills to do it, he kept insisting that it be done. Others pulled together to come up with a plan that wouldn't kill Rush in the process.

Freakiest thing? Rush starting to come to while they were still wrist-deep in his chest. Vivisection! Cool. Horrifying, but cool. I'm wondering if they have enough antibiotics - the chances that they had an actual sterile field during that operation are pretty much nil, and in the real world, dude would go septic and die pretty quick without a drain/shunt and some serious antibiotics. But that's medical reality, not TV reality.

All in all, tense, and full of great moments. A thought - can you ever really trust someone again that you know will kill you without hesitation? Are the military really there to protect the civilians anymore, or to police them?

That's the question the civilians have to ask themselves - I think that's the question in your mind after lying on the ground with a gun pointed at your head.

Tried to green you for this post, but I can't at the moment .
I agree that Young didn't care as much about saving Rush's life as he did about disabling the tracking device. Which makes sense, since his first responsibility should be the safety of the crew... but on the other hand, it definitely didn't help Young's case, since he has seemed far too ready to sacrifice people lately (especially those who he finds "inconvenient"... like Rush). And yeah, lying on the floor with a gun to your head would probably convince most people that they can't trust the military. Scott said it: " we have to live with these people tomorrow." It seems to me like everyone on the Destiny is forgetting that point.

I do like Young, but I see him as flawed. (Rush being flawed pretty much goes without saying, right?)

During last night's episode, there were a couple of times when I could have kicked Young for doing things that, while they made perfect sense insofar as how to get control of the ship back, were exactly the wrong thing to do - they have to all live together after this.

I think it is good writing (and good acting!) that makes Young this character for me that I just am so frustrated with - I keep thinking - I know you are a better man than this!

Still can't green you, sorry. But I still like what you're saying here.

I'm not sure if I "like" Young anymore. I did once, but now... I find him scary. I think he needs to own up to some of his mistakes and deal with the consequences instead of this mentality of "let's just pretend like it never happened." I do find Young interesting as a character, however. I just don't think I'd want to be stuck in the same room with him for very long. Still, your point is well-made: his character is well-written and well-acted to create this kind of frustrated, conflicted reaction from me.

The thing is the Destiny isn't a separate country. Its a base set up by the US government or IOA depending how you look at it

I find this argument a little confusing. I'm sure that's what the military would say, but I can't really conceive of the Destiny as a true military base, because it's cut off from the governing structure of the military. Neither the US government, nor the IOA can enforce order or hold the military responsible for their actions because at the moment they have no practical authority over the Destiny crew. They can't enforce orders, can't hold Young accountable for his actions, and they have no oversight abilities to make sure that the military is behaving properly. I've seen some people compare it to the SGC, but the military commander of the SGC was held accountable by higher military authorities. That's simply not the case here.

If anything, you could consider Destiny a former military operation that has gone rogue, since Colonel Young made it clear in "Earth" that they were going to make their own decisions and had no intention of following orders from the military authorities back on Earth. But even if Young hadn't made that decision, the government, the military command structure, and the IOA still can't govern the Destiny simply because they have no practical power over it. Given their situation, the crew of the Destiny have to make decisions on their own, and they have to come up with a command structure that works for them, totally independent of any help, advice, assistance, or oversight from the governments of Earth. Destiny is no longer part of the military hierarchy and command structure. Basically... they're on their own. Which makes Destiny is its own mini-society, playing out massive power-struggles on a miniature scale.

I think the point of this episode was to examine the Destiny as a microcosm of society, and consider some of these really hard questions that we've all been talking about. What happens when there is no outside authority, when leaders can't be held accountable for their actions, when the governing structures that you've come to accept and depend on suddenly cease to exist?

[Gollumpus]

Last point of fact; even if we declare the Destiny crew to be under Earth, that means that technically they are under the IOA, a civilian authority. Who is the IOA representative on Destiny? Wray.

But as Young proved earlier, they aren't under Earth's control, so they have their own society now.

Frankly, as long as the long range communication system is active this whole control thing is absurd.

Any Stargate facility is under military command under the oversight of the IOA. To me that means an IOA rep fills the role of something akin to a political officer as seen in films like "Hunt for Red October" or "Das Boot". They have no actual power, are not in the CoC, and likely have no relevant experience. They have no duties other than to be looking over the military commander's shoulder and being a witness to every decision which is made, and then to report back to the political superiors at the end of the mission or tour of duty.

At no time does this political officer position actually have any day to day command ability (Woolsey was different in that he was given actual command of Atlantis). They do not direct battles. They do not set duty rosters. They are not consulted by the commander in case of an emergency. When Icarus base was being attacked there was not any kind of attempt on Young's part to seek a consultation with Wray as to how they should proceed during that crisis. Further, I do not recall Wray getting on the horn to get a quick briefing from Young and to then offer suggestions on how to proceed. I DO recall that Wray had her bags packed and she was waiting in the gateroom to be evacuated.

Wray was the ranking civilian authority on Icarus base (maybe. We don't know if there was anyone above her who didn't make it out). Wray is the ranking civilian authority on Destiny. Wray is also the only civilian authority on Destiny. Wray was some kind of human resources person. (Why such a person was needed on Icarus base is still a mystery to me. A different skill set would perhaps be more appropriate.) So, just because she is an IOA HR manager that makes her the best choice to lead the mission? Hardly.

The military contingent of the SGC have a mandate to defend the civilians who are under their protection from all threats. If necessary they are to lay down their lives to save others. That is their role. They go and check places out, provide escort and make sure that the non-combatants get back alive. This sort of thought would have been drilled into their heads from day one. I am not surprised that the military types are a little bit crazy because they are faced with a very difficult situation. Would it be nice if they eased off a little? Sure. I think that would be something we will see as the series continues.

The military ran Icarus base. The move from Icarus to Destiny does not mean that all bets are off as to how things are done. Young would see the situation as being nothing more than a change of venue for his command. Why would he feel obligated to consult with Wray on any issue beyond her supposed expertise in HR related issues? In pretty much any kind of emergency, Young would consult the science types in regard to what sort of issues may arise with Destiny (power, life support, shields, weapons). What would Wray be able to contribute to the discussion?

And frankly, I'm a bit ticked off at the civilian/scientist contingent. All they have done (for the most part) is whine about not being able to go home not being able to eat all of the food in the first few days of being on Destiny. What have they been prevented from doing since their arrival? They seem to have free run of the ship (at least the parts which have been checked and secured by the military) and as long as they don't run any experiments which impact on what Rush is doing they are left alone. These guys are intelligent, smart and capable. They also would likely have very strong egos. At some point they should have stepped up and directed their anger at Rush for being a constant jerk. These people should be able to get something done without Rush. If they are so reliant on him being around to get things accomplished then why not get rid of them?

regards,
G.

[Kaiphantom]

You are comparing nations to small military units. The analogy doesn’t hold.

Not quite; the analogy does hold, if you go back through history and examine "why" people like our founding fathers put the military under the control of the civilians. Because what is good for the military, is never quite what is good for society in general. Most people can't live their lives the way the military does; witness the episode where they had civilians exercising until they threw up. Would you like to be ordered around like that?

I don’t agree that Young is a dictatorship. He is the ranking military officer and has legitimate command.

Not quite anymore. Remember Earth? Young has basically said "Screw you" to Earth's command, and that they'll do things the way they want to; take it or leave it. That's the sound of a dictator, not the sound of someone in a legitimate chain of command. If he was, he would be accepting of all orders.

I get the feeling you are hung up on the military label. Just because they are in the military doesn’t mean they are evil or corrupt leaders. O’Neil and Hammond were military and excellent leaders. Kinsey was a civilian and was very corrupt and cowardly. It all depends who is doing the leading. I think Wray would make a far worse leader than Young. She has already demonstrated that she is far more self serving and has no real combat experience. Young definitely has his problems but who would be better is hard to say. All of SGU’s characters are flawed.

Yes and no. You can pull specifics out all day long, but in general, civilians in control of the military is the ideal solution we've found so far as humans. Because in order for people to assent to be ruled, they have to honestly feel like they have a say in how things are done. That's not the case for Destiny now, which is why they revolted. And they will do it again. And again. And again.

In order to truly have peace, the military must sede power to a civilian authority.