Canon or Non Canon, after seeing the episodes?

[Deevil]

Cool, so my dream of Neelix the annoying alien from Star Trek Voyager being shut in a microwave oven IS true, hurray!

In you're dream show, yes that's canon.

Of course... you're dreams are far more disturbing then I first thought they were .

[Deevil]

Canon doesn't have to make sense, it just exists because the show does.

Continuity is what is meant to make sense. They are 2 different things all together... and quite often in most things, canon is contradictory, but it doesn't stop being canon because of it. When people suggest it does it is fanon. Which is what the fans tend to do, pick an choose their own canon to believe.

[s09119]

I agree with the first part, but not the second. I've taken a long hard look at the problems between SG-1 and SGA and have found that a lot of them can be accounted for (not all, especially the disappearing gate in 1969, ugh!)

That was explained as the time-space continuum warping to allow for SG-1 to arrive in the past.

And yes, the constellation system proposed by Daniel is crap...unless it was just for aesthetics. If that was what the Alterra in AoT had on his notebook it makes sense...and means the Ori could have had some generic stargates. We never saw any, aside from the supergate, but they do use rings.

The Alteran notebook technically is a violation of continuity, as it features Milky Way constellations that they wouldn't know existed for another few thousand years. We can safely ignore that as a writer mistake.

But, just think about something. You invent this wonderful device...and the first thing you do is sent it off somewhere else? One would think you'd use it for a while, get the kinks out of it, then send a design off to be put in other galaxies. It makes no sense for the seeder ships to go out before the MW has gates.

Says you.

Also, the Destiny gate isn't the first. The ones made on the seeder ships would be first. And if Destiny didn't launch until much later, why wasn't its gate upgraded to a supposedly 'newer' red gate or blue gate?

The Destiny was launched after the seeder ships, but we don't know how long after. Maybe it left and then a few hundred years later, the Ancients devised the red-glyph gates.

As for no DHD...might that have been because it wasn't intended for a local populous to use? Also, without a DHD or some advanced programming wouldn't the stellar drift make all the gates in other galaxies inoperable because there is no correlative updates coming through the DHDs?

The DHD functions are probably contained within the base of offworld gates, but we don't know yet. Obviously there's a dialing subroutine in them somewhere, or else the kino remote wouldn't be able to remotely make them work.

If a show is to have a sense of realism these things have to make sense. So far they don't.

Incorrect.

CANON is meant to be a benchmark to insure realism and continuity of timelines. CANON has to make sense or it can't be CANON.[

No it doesn't...?

[Aer'ki]

canon only exists if there is continuity in that area. stargates can not have a "canon" way, because various episodes contradict. the exact workings of shields and such do not have an exact "canon" because there are contradictions. beaming through shields: same thing.


canon by definition can only apply if there is continuity. a canon is in essence the Truth, but if there is doubt and contradiction, there's no "true"

Ok, I can see your point on this. Stargate never had any canon. So what we have is common elements being delivered in similar, same, and sometimes dissimilar ways.

Why then are the novels and INFINITY not considered part of the franchise? (different media, I know)


Also, look at other series and how they deal with CANON. Take Halo, for instance. They have a very specific source book that they carefully loan out to even the authors writing the books. Everything has to add up, they want to make sure of it.

That is what CANON is. Stargate has been more, say halfway between Halo and the Final Fantasy series.

So...why doesn't TPTB use a sourcebook or 'bible?'

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

In you're dream show, yes that's canon.

Of course... you're dreams are far more disturbing then I first thought they were .

I dunno, even Neelix’s crewmates thought about killing him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWlv_02fRyY

[thekillman]

because we're talking stargate the TV series, Infinity is a mistake.


it's safe to say that the Destiny Gates are already tested, and they perform well. they're easy enough to make for them to be spread far and wide. they have sufficient range for exploration. and well, that's pretty much it.

the ancients were at their height. the gate system wouldn't just mean easy galactic transport, but also easy exploration. Destiny was made, and launched, and so they could easily reach nearby galaxies and explore.

clearly, something went wrong in the milkyway. the destiny gates had problems that only surfaced after years of use, so the DHD, and far more complex programming was added, so they would last longer, would work better and would not have so many problems.

the fruit of Destiny can be seen in pegasus: we know it travelled there, and it makes sense now why they went so far, instead of going to a much closer galaxy. the nearest is 50 000 LY's. clearly they used Destiny to explore Pegasus, and they found it useful and went there.

so i see no continuity problem. the MW gate system (constellations) was probably invented before SGU gates, but the purpose of the Destiny would make the constellations confusing, so they chose a new form of encoding which worked better.

then they went to pegasus, added the latest batch of upgrades, and spread the new Pegasus gates there. added Solar Flare safety systems ( it auto-detects them, while MW gates dont. but ancient sensors would've predicted those), are just one of them.


they chose the old MW system of dialling because, well, it worked nicely and they weren't going anywhere

[Colonel Rebel]

Yeah, I think SGU is canon. I can't think of any valid argument for why it wouldn't be.

[s09119]

Ok, I can see your point on this. Stargate never had any canon. So what we have is common elements being delivered in similar, same, and sometimes dissimilar ways.

Why then are the novels and INFINITY not considered part of the franchise? (different media, I know)

Infinity isn't part of canon because the writers/producers of the live-action television series had nothing to do with it and said it's not canon. That simple.

Also, look at other series and how they deal with CANON. Take Halo, for instance. They have a very specific source book that they carefully loan out to even the authors writing the books. Everything has to add up, they want to make sure of it.

That is what CANON is. Stargate has been more, say halfway between Halo and the Final Fantasy series.

You fail to understand what canon is. It's simply what the creative team at the head of the franchise says it is; for example, George Lucas has the final say on what's canon for Star Wars. He lets various authors make their works part of the canon, but can override what they wrote in his own work if he so chooses, making his stuff canon and their stuff not.

Basically, you need to accept that canon is just what TPTB say it is. If they said tomorrow "Atlantis is no longer part of the franchise canon," the universe would be redefined as the things done in the movies and SG-1 and the things done in Universe.

So...why doesn't TPTB use a sourcebook or 'bible?'

They may have one, but it just may not be very strictly used. Not all shows have stuff like that, and hence most shows have continuity errors.

[natyanayaki]

So, by your definition, CANON is the most recent incarnation?

NO! Canon is what the official franchise writers say what happen. For instance if A happen in SG1 and B happened in SGU, but A and B contradict each other, they still happened in their specific series, and they are both canon. The issue there is that the writers didn't do enough research in previous work to not come out hypocritically. But they are stil

Yeah, I think SGU is canon. I can't think of any valid argument for why it wouldn't be.

THIS! Unless in a few BW and the others involved decide none of SGU happened.l both CANON.

[Aer'ki]

Infinity isn't part of canon because the writers/producers of the live-action television series had nothing to do with it and said it's not canon. That simple.



You fail to understand what canon is. It's simply what the creative team at the head of the franchise says it is; for example, George Lucas has the final say on what's canon for Star Wars. He lets various authors make their works part of the canon, but can override what they wrote in his own work if he so chooses, making his stuff canon and their stuff not.

Basically, you need to accept that canon is just what TPTB say it is. If they said tomorrow "Atlantis is no longer part of the franchise canon," the universe would be redefined as the things done in the movies and SG-1 and the things done in Universe.



They may have one, but it just may not be very strictly used. Not all shows have stuff like that, and hence most shows have continuity errors.

Are you totally nuts?

What you just said is called a 'RETCON'. It's when they need or want to abandon the canon of the past and start over again. CANON IS CONTINUITY.

As for them having a sourcebook...I read they DID NOT have one for Atlantis. Knowing how complex the storyline and tech was in SG-1 seasons 1-7, why wouldn't they write a sourcebook for Atlantis?

And as for Lucas...you've got that wrong. He's said that NONE of the novels are CANON. He let's the authors play in his universe without having any influence over it.

He does not go back and undo what he previously did. His movies were all part of one large plot...which he didn't let the novel writers in on inbetween the trilogies.

All that said, even the novels have some sense of EU canon to go by. 'EU' means extended universe, thus a trumped up version of star wars Fanfic sold to the public. They want the novels interconnected, even if they aren't official CANON.

CANON means something...not just whatever the head guys say at that moment.

And IMO, SG-1 set the benchmark for CANON in the TV franchise. If SGA and SGU don't match up, then they're not CANON. I, and I believe many others, will not accept a Retcon of the franchise...which SGU seems to be in oh so many ways.

[Aer'ki]

NO! Canon is what the official franchise writers say what happen. For instance if A happen in SG1 and B happened in SGU, but A and B contradict each other, they still happened in their specific series, and they are both canon. The issue there is that the writers didn't do enough research in previous work to not come out hypocritically. But they are stil




THIS! Unless in a few BW and the others involved decide none of SGU happened.l both CANON.

I can go with that on writing and production mistakes. That does happen a lot between episodes(shouldn't, but it does).

But what if the change is INTENTIONALLY made by TPTB and not a mistake?

[DigiFluid]

Not really an issue, since that hasn't happened yet.

[aretood2]

Are you totally nuts?

He might be

What you just said is called a 'RETCON'. It's when they need or want to abandon the canon of the past and start over again. CANON IS CONTINUITY.

No, Continuity is Continuity and Canon is Canon. These words are not interchangeable.

As for them having a sourcebook...I read they DID NOT have one for Atlantis. Knowing how complex the storyline and tech was in SG-1 seasons 1-7, why wouldn't they write a sourcebook for Atlantis?

A source book is just a tool some use.

And as for Lucas...you've got that wrong. He's said that NONE of the novels are CANON. He let's the authors play in his universe without having any influence over it.

Oh boy. Star wars has different levels of canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.
T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[2]
C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

He does not go back and undo what he previously did. His movies were all part of one large plot...which he didn't let the novel writers in on inbetween the trilogies.

But the Novels are made to fallow along the story. This is why Lucas Arts does games based on novel characters with Lucas' blessings. However Lucas retains the rights to mess up Novel canon in favor of his own Ideas.

All that said, even the novels have some sense of EU canon to go by. 'EU' means extended universe, thus a trumped up version of star wars Fanfic sold to the public. They want the novels interconnected, even if they aren't official CANON.

The novels are only canon because Lucas says they are

CANON means something...not just whatever the head guys say at that moment.

wrong

And IMO, SG-1 set the benchmark for CANON in the TV franchise. If SGA and SGU don't match up, then they're not CANON. I, and I believe many others, will not accept a Retcon of the franchise...which SGU seems to be in oh so many ways.

wrong again. Canon is not subbjective.

[Captain Obvious]

in sga the members of the expedition were not allowed to tell their loved ones that they were in another galaxy, and that they may never have a way to get back to earth, in the ep 'letters from pegasus'

But in "the tao of Rodney" (stomach lurch) his sister was not only told of the program, but SENT to Atlantis!

There are people who have family members pass the security checks, and there are people, like Scott's stripper/baby momma, who do not get clearance.

[Calluna]

Canon doesn't have to make sense, it just exists because the show does.

Ain't that the truth.

What you just said is called a 'RETCON'. It's when they need or want to abandon the canon of the past and start over again. CANON IS CONTINUITY.

Nope, canon and continuity are not the same thing at all, canon is what we see on screen until told otherwise by TPTB and continuity is how much of that actually makes sense. For my sins I watch "Grey's Anatomy", a lot of that show is stupid, makes no sense, characters are often completely OOC and aparently all of S4 took place inside one day, but what is said on screen is canon until the next retcon.



A SGA example I was thinking about recently: In SGA's early eps it was shown to take most of a P90 clip to take down a Wraith eg (The Defiant One) but later in "Sateda" and others it seems like only a few bullets and a Wraith is down for the count. A big discrepancy yet both kills are still canon because we saw it happen and no one has said Shep was dreaming about killing them with a couple of rounds.


[quote]And as for Lucas...you've got that wrong. He's said that NONE of the novels are CANON. He let's the authors play in his universe without having any influence over it.
[/quote

Nope, his canon is the highest kind (G canon they call IIRC) but if his vision doesn't conflict with the novels, games etc then they have their own levels of canon. That's why LucasFilm employs people fulltime to deal with various types of canon. If none of it mattered apart from the movies they wouldn't bother. ****

Regardless of anything else. TPTB have said this is taking place in the same universe (which really is end of discussion,) and actors from previous shows have shown up, and whilst you can argue about how in character they are or not, have played continuing versions of themselves from where we left off with them, ie O'Neill is doing the same thing since leaving the SGC, Carter is still in command of the Hammond, Daniel is Daniel, Walter still has his usual job etc. Hell we even know where abouts in the timeline the premiere is actually set in comparison to other eps and movies etc.


***
aretood2 beat me to it and was much more detailed about Star Wars canon.