My thoughts about Sam and Jack in the third movie (spec and spoilers)

[Frostfox]

I just had a thought. With SGU having been called BSG-lite so often, and the writers doing something "New and Edgier"

Would it surprise anyone if we got a Roslin/Adama in this third movie? OMG! I don't know whether i'd be impressed or outraged, i'd likely just be... shocked.

Killing one of them off? I suppose it's possible, I'd had the same thought, you know how much they like to 'homage' other shows.

FF

[Melora]

Would the Stargate have been as good of a movie without the Daniel/Shauri storyline? Would SG-1 have been as poignant or Daniel as interesting without his relationship with Sha’re or Sarah Gardner? Would Jack have been as deep of a character without his relationship with Sara?

Like it or not, most movies and TV series do delve into the romantic relationships between men and women. In the past decade or so, many have even delved into same-sex romantic relationships. When shows focus on romance to the exclusion of almost everything else, they become soap operas. When they focus most on solving crimes, they are mysteries. When they deal with space or the future, they are sci-fi. But no matter what the genre, very few shows depict all the women and men on them exclusively as platonic friends and workmates. In fact, almost every sci-fi movie/show in history has had at least a small bit of romance in it going all the way back to Metropolis and Frau im Mond. In many classic sci-fi films and serials, the romantic feelings the male and female characters have for each other is the primary catalyst for their actions.

Does a show or movie need romance to be interesting or entertaining? Perhaps not, but the complete lack of romantic relationships is not very realistic in most stories on the whole IMO. In the case of SG-1, I think the show would have been very dull indeed without the romantic relationships that were portrayed. TPTB also managed to portray great platonic friendships between all of the main characters (male and female) for several years.

Unfortunately, I think TPTB did a terrible job in the last couple years with the friendships between Sam/Teal'c/Daniel. Frankly, I see more failures in their portrayals of those relationships than they ever had with Sam/Jack. So if there is a third movie, I really hope they can show some real closeness and caring between those three characters in particular.

[Ashizuri]

I just had a thought. With SGU having been called BSG-lite so often, and the writers doing something "New and Edgier"

Would it surprise anyone if we got a Roslin/Adama in this third movie? OMG! I don't know whether i'd be impressed or outraged, i'd likely just be... shocked.

Mallozzi has said that both the SG-1 and Atlantis movies would stay true to their original tone, look, and shooting style, so I can't imagine that we'll get any Universe/BSG-style edginess to Sam/Jack's story.

SG-1 has always been a more lighthearted, the good-guys win type of show and I would very much like it to stay that way.

[Frostfox]

Would the Stargate have been as good of a movie without the Daniel/Shauri storyline? Would SG-1 have been as poignant or Daniel as interesting without his relationship with Sha’re or Sarah Gardner? Would Jack have been as deep of a character without his relationship with Sara?

Like it or not, most movies and TV series do delve into the romantic relationships between men and women. In the past decade or so, many have even delved into same-sex romantic relationships. When shows focus on romance to the exclusion of almost everything else, they become soap operas. When they focus most on solving crimes, they are mysteries. When they deal with space or the future, they are sci-fi. But no matter what the genre, very few shows depict all the women and men on them exclusively as platonic friends and workmates. In fact, almost every sci-fi movie/show in history has had at least a small bit of romance in it going all the way back to Metropolis and Frau im Mond. In many classic sci-fi films and serials, the romantic feelings the male and female characters have for each other is the primary catalyst for their actions.

Does a show or movie need romance to be interesting or entertaining? Perhaps not, but the complete lack of romantic relationships is not very realistic in most stories on the whole IMO. In the case of SG-1, I think the show would have been very dull indeed without the romantic relationships that were portrayed. TPTB also managed to portray great platonic friendships between all of the main characters (male and female) for several years.

It was such a dull relationship though. RDA makes Jack look miserable as sin every time the issue comes up, there's no joy, no spark, no heart to it. It is, as you say, in there because the formula dictates there is a relationship, not to enhance the show.

Unfortunately, I think TPTB did a terrible job in the last couple years with the friendships between Sam/Teal'c/Daniel. Frankly, I see more failures in their portrayals of those relationships than they ever had with Sam/Jack. So if there is a third movie, I really hope they can show some real closeness and caring between those three characters in particular.

TPTB seemed unable to achieve balance; Jack and Sam in a relationship shouldn't occlude or detract from the other relationships on the show, but it does. It's as though they can't keep more than one ball in the air at once, as though it's either Jack and Sam or Jack and Daniel, Jack and Teal'c, Sam and Daniel, Sam and Teal'c.
I have news for them, when we are in a romantic relationship, all our other friendships and relationships don't cease to exist, not if we want to have a healthy romance. Only the sickly obsessed cut out all their other contacts when they get in a relationship, love doesn't exist in a vacuum, not for long.

FF

[leiasky]

Would the Stargate have been as good of a movie without the Daniel/Shauri storyline? Would SG-1 have been as poignant or Daniel as interesting without his relationship with Sha’re or Sarah Gardner? Would Jack have been as deep of a character without his relationship with Sara?

Like it or not, most movies and TV series do delve into the romantic relationships between men and women. In the past decade or so, many have even delved into same-sex romantic relationships. When shows focus on romance to the exclusion of almost everything else, they become soap operas. When they focus most on solving crimes, they are mysteries. When they deal with space or the future, they are sci-fi. But no matter what the genre, very few shows depict all the women and men on them exclusively as platonic friends and workmates. In fact, almost every sci-fi movie/show in history has had at least a small bit of romance in it going all the way back to Metropolis and Frau im Mond. In many classic sci-fi films and serials, the romantic feelings the male and female characters have for each other is the primary catalyst for their actions.

Does a show or movie need romance to be interesting or entertaining? Perhaps not, but the complete lack of romantic relationships is not very realistic in most stories on the whole IMO. In the case of SG-1, I think the show would have been very dull indeed without the romantic relationships that were portrayed. TPTB also managed to portray great platonic friendships between all of the main characters (male and female) for several years.

Unfortunately, I think TPTB did a terrible job in the last couple years with the friendships between Sam/Teal'c/Daniel. Frankly, I see more failures in their portrayals of those relationships than they ever had with Sam/Jack. So if there is a third movie, I really hope they can show some real closeness and caring between those three characters in particular.

Beautifully said

I agree completely that they really ignored the Sam/Teal'c/Daniel friendship in the last few seasons and the deep bond formed by all of them is what's the most interesting and enjoyable. I prefer to think those seasons never existed.

Mallozzi has said that both the SG-1 and Atlantis movies would stay true to their original tone, look, and shooting style, so I can't imagine that we'll get any Universe/BSG-style edginess to Sam/Jack's story.

Thank god for that. Folks that like the BSG/SGU style have those two shows to enjoy. I'm not one of them and am glad they won't be altering the SG-1 or SGA movie to fit that new disgustingly uninteresting (my opinion) style.

It was such a dull relationship though. RDA makes Jack look miserable as sin every time the issue comes up, there's no joy, no spark, no heart to it. It is, as you say, in there because the formula dictates there is a relationship, not to enhance the show.

What you consider dull, others consider good acting based on the situations created in/for the show.

There will be a good Sam/Jack moment in the new movie - if we ever get to see it.

[slurredspeech]

Because the only relationship of any value is a romantic one.

Your opinion if you remove 'Sam' from everything you say above and put 'Daniel'? You're a Jack/Daniel fan, yes?

Scratches head.
I still don't see the connection. Homosexual relationships are no the norm on US TV, which makes the question irrelevant.
I've never campaigned for J/D on the show and it's off topic for this thread.
I'm quite able to discuss Sam and Jack's relationship without including my fannish preferences, why do you keep bring it back to J/D?

It's actually a valid question, and one I was going to ask myself (mostly re the bolded part of your first post). Btw, I have to say I've only read this thread up to your post I last quoted, so someone else might have made my point for me.

Romantic relationship isn't the only one of value - close friendships also hold as much, if not more, depth - but the romantic aspect does bring in an interesting layer to it. Otherwise - and this would have been my original rebuke - why would you slash? Why would you bring a romantic aspect to this friendship? Or any m/m friendship, for that matter.

And, dude. I'm a slasher (in every fandom but this and one other). So, I know. Trust me. I know.

If you're simply against the 'same old' romantic relationship between the male/female leads, fair enough. And I, eh, I don't believe in the 'once a slasher, always a slasher' dogma, and just because it's het the pairing must be hated, even despite the chemistry -- one I'm in no way suggesting you must see here. This is in no way personal, and the same goes for shipping, too. And, just, any kind of boxes I've seen people (not you specifically!) put themselves into. Call me a cynic - I am; been around fandoms and their petty disagreements for long enough. Me? I'm kind of, if chemistry is there, I'm on board like WHOA. Your original post didn't suggest as much, so if you intended it that way, disregard.

[Frostfox]

It's actually a valid question, and one I was going to ask myself (mostly re the bolded part of your first post). Btw, I have to say I've only read this thread up to your post I last quoted, so someone else might have made my point for me.

Romantic relationship isn't the only one of value - close friendships also hold as much, if not more, depth - but the romantic aspect does bring in an interesting layer to it. Otherwise - and this would have been my original rebuke - why would you slash?

And, dude. I'm a slasher (in every fandom but this and one other). So, I know. Trust me. I know.

If you're simply against the 'same old' romantic relationship between the male/female leads, fair enough. I don't know why slashers are, just because it's het, and even despite the chemistry -- one I'm in no way suggesting you must see here. Your original post didn't suggest as much, so if you intended it that way, disregard.

Um, if you are a slash fan then you must know that slash isn't actually about sex except on the most superficial, trivial level.

Indeed, some of the best slash I've ever read didn't have any sex in it.
And why do some people think you must be a slash fan to dislike J/S? Why do my fanfic choices have to have a bearing on my canon preferences? Conversely, why does me being a slash fan make my opinion any less valid than anyone else?

FF

[slurredspeech]

Um, if you are a slash fan then you must know that slash isn't actually about sex except on the most superficial, trivial level.

Indeed, some of the best slash I've ever read didn't have any sex in it.
And why does everyone think you must be a slash fan to dislike J/S? Why do my fanfic choices have to have a bearing on my canon preferences? Conversely, why does me being a slash fan make my opinion any less valid than anyone else?

FF

Have I mentioned sex anywhere?

Have I said I thought your opinion as a slasher is less?

Anywhere?

[Frostfox]

Have I mentioned sex anywhere?

Have I said I thought your opinion as a slasher is less?

Anywhere?

I thought we were using the phrase 'romantic relationship' to include the sexual aspects of romance, as well as the chocolates and flowers aspect? So -

Romantic relationship isn't the only one of value - close friendships also hold as much, if not more, depth - but the romantic aspect does bring in an interesting layer to it. Otherwise - and this would have been my original rebuke - why would you slash?

is surely about sexual relationships?

And I wasn't implying that you, personally thought less of me as a slasher, hence using the word 'everyone'. Perhaps I should amend that to 'some people'.

FF

[slurredspeech]

I thought we were using the phrase 'romantic relationship' to include the sexual aspects of romance, as well as the chocolates and flowers aspect?

Hah! When it comes to me, let's get one thing straight right away -- chocolates, flowers, and, God forbid fire hazard in the form of candles and such, are not my idea of romance. As well as the abuse of the word 'love' and 'soulmate'.

But, no, not just sex. Well done UST (slash, ship, whatever) gets me all a-tingle just as. Never mind that sex, if done well and without the above mentioned, GUH yes. But, it's just one aspect of that more-than-friends relationship that shippers and slashers alike see between the characters they like together.

And I wasn't implying that you, personally thought less of me as a slasher, hence using the word 'everyone'. Perhaps I should amend that to 'some people'.

Some, perhaps, would be a better choice. Extremes are always the loudest -- on both sides. I've learned that long ago.

[Aragon101]

It's actually a valid question, and one I was going to ask myself (mostly re the bolded part of your first post). Btw, I have to say I've only read this thread up to your post I last quoted, so someone else might have made my point for me.

Romantic relationship isn't the only one of value - close friendships also hold as much, if not more, depth - but the romantic aspect does bring in an interesting layer to it. Otherwise - and this would have been my original rebuke - why would you slash? Why would you bring a romantic aspect to this friendship? Or any m/m friendship, for that matter.

And, dude. I'm a slasher (in every fandom but this and one other). So, I know. Trust me. I know.

If you're simply against the 'same old' romantic relationship between the male/female leads, fair enough. And I, eh, I don't believe in the 'once a slasher, always a slasher' dogma, and just because it's het the pairing must be hated, even despite the chemistry -- one I'm in no way suggesting you must see here. This is in no way personal, and the same goes for shipping, too. And, just, any kind of boxes I've seen people (not you specifically!) put themselves into. Call me a cynic - I am; been around fandoms and their petty disagreements for long enough. Me? I'm kind of, if chemistry is there, I'm on board like WHOA. Your original post didn't suggest as much, so if you intended it that way, disregard.

It's posts like these that make me POSITIVE you watch The Daily Show and The Colbert Report

There is no "one" type of person who hates a ship or even loves it, everyone sees something different, and while the views may be similar, it's not the same.

It's easy to generalize, but i prefer to think of these things along two levels, One: Is the ship i see on screen the cause of teh writing, and hense the 'characters?" or is it just the actors who get along well? They are two seperate beings remember?

and 2: Even if the chemistry isnt' there, is the situation in which they get together believable for both characters? is it true to those characters to get together or is it warping them?

That's why i see more Jack/Daniel then i see Jack/Sam. but i'm not a slasher that should tell you what i think about Jack/Sam.

[slurredspeech]

It's posts like these that make me POSITIVE you watch The Daily Show and The Colbert Report

Jon Stewart is god. No two ways about it. /OT luv

There is no "one" type of person who hates a ship or even loves it, everyone sees something different, and while the views may be similar, it's not the same.

One: Is the ship i see on screen the cause of teh writing, and hense the 'characters?" or is it just the actors who get along well? They are two seperate beings remember?

and 2: Even if the chemistry isnt' there, is the situation in which they get together believable for both characters? is it true to those characters to get together or is it warping them?

For me, I think it's much less complicated and much more basic. (And when I say less complicated, I mean, methinks people give it less conscious thought than that.) Person A likes the character XY. Person A also likes XY with Z. They click in the A's eyes. There's this chemistry, this click and clack and HOLY CUPCAKES BATMAN they're just so darn right together. And so it begins.

That's why I loathe ship wars of any kind. You can't push it on people. Just. Can't. They either see it, or they don't. And if they do, no amount of pointing out all the things you think are wrong with it will make them unsee it.
Writing of the particular ship/slash pairing? Sure, that might do it. It might ruin it for some. It won't be what they saw in the click-bang period; it might become something they dislike. They'll find another fandom and move on. But rationale, logic, objectivity... it has so very little with likes and dislikes, it's incredible.

I said it before somewhere, and I'll say it again. It's like me thinking spicy food is the best thing since sliced bread. Some people won't like it, no matter how much I do. And vice versa.

No matter how passionate one is about their pairing of choice -- the other side feels just as strongly. People tend to forget that.

Oh man, am I condescending(ly tipsy) tonight!

[Ashizuri]

No matter how passionate one is about their pairing of choice -- the other side feels just as strongly. People tend to forget that.

And no matter how passionate one might be about their pairing of choice, or how passionately they might hate the other pairing, all that matters in the long run is TPTB's pairing of choice. Which seems to be Jack/Sam, since they keep on writing it.

Oh man, am I condescending(ly tipsy) tonight!

That's kind of one of my favorite things about you.

[slurredspeech]

And no matter how passionate one might be about their pairing of choice, or how passionately they might hate the other pairing, all that matters in the long run is TPTB's pairing of choice. Which seems to be Jack/Sam, since they keep on writing it.

Are you trying to steer this conversation back on (the specific) topic? O_o *hangs head in OT shame*

I suppose, yes. But then, people who prefer other pairings -be it slash or simply other ships - will still enjoy them just as much. They may not like canon, but that's what fanfiction and other venues of fandom are for.
Whatever happens on the show - or the movies - is one thing; it's a show made not by fans. Different groups holding it over each other is... a waste of everyone's time.

That's kind of one of my favorite things about you.

I KNEW IT.

<3<3 It's two hearts, col_aga.

[Frostfox]

And no matter how passionate one might be about their pairing of choice, or how passionately they might hate the other pairing, all that matters in the long run is TPTB's pairing of choice. Which seems to be Jack/Sam, since they keep on writing it.

But that isn't necessarily 'all that matters' if you are a fan.
Fans create, they take the text given to them by TPTB and do with it what what they want. That's what media fans do and have been doing since the 1960s.

FF