Avalon, Part 1 (901)

[Liebestraume]

I disagree, I don't think it was out of character at all.

When I said Daniel and Teal'c had acted "out of character," I was referring to the way they had turned Mitchell down, not to the fact in and of itself. Both Teal'c and Daniel could have very good reasons for not wanting to return to SG-1. But, did either of them express any regret to Mitchell for denying his request? They might have said it, but IMHO they never showed it. I consider that out of character.

Take Teal'c for example. The problem there is at least two-fold. First of all, if the reasons you listed are the only things that had kept him away from Earth, then he should have left long before S8's conclusion. Not only did he stay, he also hardly discussed or showed any of those concerns (on screen). So, now all of a sudden, I am supposed to buy these things are his uttermost priority? Where's the continuity?

Suppose he had stayed entirely due to his personal loyalty to Jack -- an unsatisfactory explanation, but let's go with that for the sake of argument. Still I was surprised that he rushed off and left Mitchell to his own device. The Teal'c I know is diginified but always courteous; if he was busy, I'd expect him to at least arrange an escort for his guest. About the only time he shows any aloofness is towards someone he doesn't like.

I won't go into length about Daniel. Suffices it to say that there are many ways to express gratitude to someone for saving your life -- which, incidentally, was what this episode pounded into me over and over -- but (what essentially amounts to) "thanks, no can do, gotta run" is probably not one of the best. His desire to go to Atlantis was never the issue here.

I think the flashbacks would have to be first person, for the most part, and it worked for me, because he could be thinking of the events. I doubt that Daniel would be reflecting that detailed about what happened. Also, I think it would only be egotistical if he was relating these events to others, which could be construed as bragging, but just thinking of his past and how it got him to where he is doesn't seem egotistical to me.

No, "bragging" is obviously a big no-no.

But, at this point, little about Mitchell is known. The only time we had a glimpse into his mind, he seemed to be busy thinking how he got this job. While it was an entirely reasonable thing for the character to do, what the audience saw was a protagonist seemingly reflecting upon nothing other than his own heroics. For me, that's a big turn-off.

IMHO, it would have been better leaving this "how did he get this job" question alone for now. Instead, have some other people reflecting upon the-greatness-that-is-Mitchell in the next a few episodes. This way, not only would there be a sense of mystery around "the new guy" for now, in the long run the character's apparent humility would also be embarced.

Thanks for your replies. I watch SG-1 mostly for sentimental reasons and hope it'll improve as the season develops.

[Dani347]

But, Teal'c didn't rush off. He had already been gone a month. And, Mitchell never actually asked him to rejoin the team at the beginning. He just asked if he could help him out, and Teal'c offered to give him names of people he considered honorable warriors. Especially since he was dealing with his own problems. That was pretty helpful of him to offer. When Mitchell finally got up the guts to actually say what he really wanted, not just help, but Teal'c on the team, Teal'c was called away because the council was back in session. Teal'c obviously is a member of the council. It wouldn't be proper for him to hold up the meeting or go in late in order for Mitchell to have time to spit out what he wanted.

I thought Daniel very sincerely acknowledged what Mitchell had done. His whole tone changed, got more serious and slower. He said he was sorry and that he knew why he owed Mitchell one. His thanking Mitchell and the manner of his refusing to stay on the team are two separate issues in my mind. I think Mitchell thought that way, too. Daniel was extremely distracted. I mean, he was leaving that very same day, still had a lot of packing to do. Yet, he takes the time to greet him, congratulate him, and I think it's only natural that he would find it incredulous that at the last minute, Mitchell is asking him to stay.

[duffarama]

I have three words to say about this episode: "Let's make babies!"

[Jonzey]

No, "bragging" is obviously a big no-no.

But, at this point, little about Mitchell is known. The only time we had a glimpse into his mind, he seemed to be busy thinking how he got this job. While it was an entirely reasonable thing for the character to do, what the audience saw was a protagonist seemingly reflecting upon nothing other than his own heroics. For me, that's a big turn-off.

IMHO, it would have been better leaving this "how did he get this job" question alone for now. Instead, have some other people reflecting upon the-greatness-that-is-Mitchell in the next a few episodes. This way, not only would there be a sense of mystery around "the new guy" for now, in the long run the character's apparent humility would also be embarced.

Thanks for your replies. I watch SG-1 mostly for sentimental reasons and hope it'll improve as the season develops.[/COLOR]

Or maybe he's just reflecting on the traumatic event which resulted in him spending a year in hospital and ultimately lead him to where he is now. To me, he wasn't thinking ''I'm a hero! I saved them all!!''

Have you not seen Airplane? That kind of event really sticks in people's minds...

[Kas]

Or maybe he's just reflecting on the traumatic event which resulted in him spending a year in hospital and ultimately lead him to where he is now. To me, he wasn't thinking ''I'm a hero! I saved them all!!''

Have you not seen Airplane? That kind of event really sticks in people's minds...

Exactly! Mitchell has obviously been fighting tremendous odds to get back on his feet, let alone reaching his position now. The trauma he experienced was massive, everything about that time a blur. He was just recalling his meeting of the team he was holding out on joining and his battle against severe injury... Nothing leads me to believe he was just meaning "Gee, I'm a hero... I saved their butts...they owe me!"

[ChillinTheMost]

Liebestraume, do you think Mitchell's first person flashbacks would have seemed as bad to you if they had shown less? Like if they shown him fighting, but left out the ones like where he was gathering the pilots together for the mission assignment? I can see where some could be hard to explain as flashbacks of the traumatic memories that brought him to the Stargate program.

Also, do you think that the flashbacks coupled with the others praising him, such as the whispered reverence that the two guys in the beginning were using when saying, "That's the guy?" "Yeah, that's Him" could have made it seem even more a little over the top? I actually rolled my eyes at that opening scene trying too hard to get the audience to like the new guy.

I guess I'm asking if you see the first person flashbacks as the big problem or is it that piled on top of all the other buildup they were giving him.

I'm a big Ben Browder fan and I'm hoping that the Stargate fans embrace him so I winced a few times when I thought they were trying too hard, because I know it can sometimes have the opposite effect.

[Lida]

Liebestraume, do you think Mitchell's first person flashbacks would have seemed as bad to you if they had shown less? Like if they shown him fighting, but left out the ones like where he was gathering the pilots together for the mission assignment? I can see where some could be hard to explain as flashbacks of the traumatic memories that brought him to the Stargate program.

Also, do you think that the flashbacks coupled with the others praising him, such as the whispered reverence that the two guys in the beginning were using when saying, "That's the guy?" "Yeah, that's Him" could have made it seem even more a little over the top? I actually rolled my eyes at that opening scene trying too hard to get the audience to like the new guy.

I guess I'm asking if you see the first person flashbacks as the big problem or is it that piled on top of all the other buildup they were giving him.

I'm a big Ben Browder fan and I'm hoping that the Stargate fans embrace him so I winced a few times when I thought they were trying too hard, because I know it can sometimes have the opposite effect.

Funny how different people see things differently. I had no problem at all with the flashbacks. I thought they were used to give background to the character. Perhaps they may have used a tad to many, BUT, I think they wanted to try and establish Cam's legitamacy, so to speak, in his new position, on SG-1. As his character was never mentioned before this first new episode, I believe they did need to give us information on his back story, other than, "he was shot down over the fight in Antarctica".

Other than to have a complete episode dedicated to his character (which I think would have been more objectionable to many), I don't se how tptb could have given us the info, and done it so quickly. I doubt they will be continuing. (the flashbacks, that is)

As for Ben Browder, he did just fine. He's a very accomplished actor and a nice guy. I loved him in Farscape and I have no doubt I'll enjoy watching him in SG-1.

[tsaxlady]

Okay I didn't want to post any comments on Avalon Part 1 until I had a chance to watch it at home. My first viewing was at Comic Con last Friday and I must admit it was awesome getting to see it on a big screen with lots of other fans. The general feeling and mood after it ended was that it was a great start to the new season. I really enjoyed the episode when I first watched it. Vala did not bother me like the character did in PU, although I'm not crazy about her outfit. I liked Mitchell and look forward to the development of this character. It was a ver nice surprise to see Carter in the episode. At Comic Con there was a lot of clapping and cheering as different characters appeared the first time on screen.

After getting home and watching the episode again I still enjoyed it but I did find it a little slow. I know that this is the first of a three parter and they had to do a lot of set-up of new characters. I look forward to seeing how the next couple of episodes go and do the speed up. In my opinion how good or bad this episode is will be better to judge after we see all three parts and then play them back to back. It may be like a movie that starts a little slow then picks up speed for a great finish or not only time will tell.

[the fifth man]

I think the pace is definitely going to pick up. Tptb have some tricks up their sleeves this season. The introduction of the Ori, from what I've read, should be pretty sweet. I think once Mitchell and Landry grow on us a little more, and Carter returns, this season could turn out to be a damn good one.

[Liebestraume]

Liebestraume, do you think Mitchell's first person flashbacks would have seemed as bad to you if they had shown less? Like if they shown him fighting, but left out the ones like where he was gathering the pilots together for the mission assignment? I can see where some could be hard to explain as flashbacks of the traumatic memories that brought him to the Stargate program.

Also, do you think that the flashbacks coupled with the others praising him, such as the whispered reverence that the two guys in the beginning were using when saying, "That's the guy?" "Yeah, that's Him" could have made it seem even more a little over the top? I actually rolled my eyes at that opening scene trying too hard to get the audience to like the new guy.

I guess I'm asking if you see the first person flashbacks as the big problem or is it that piled on top of all the other buildup they were giving him.

I'm a big Ben Browder fan and I'm hoping that the Stargate fans embrace him so I winced a few times when I thought they were trying too hard, because I know it can sometimes have the opposite effect.

ChillinTheMost, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify a few points.

I think the use of first-person flashbacks, in this particular context, was the major problem for me. Besides the possible perception of self-involved personality, the technique did not accomplish its objective(s) in the most satisfactory manner. Since I've already gone on long enough about "personal heroics" , let's just tackle the "traumatic experience" angle.

First-person POV tends to be rich in emotional content. Coming into the episode, however, I knew next to nothing about Mitchell and, consequently, had neither the inclination nor the opportunity to invest in the character. Therefore, it would be quite disingenuous of me to say his feelings or his experience touched me a great deal. Perhaps intellectually, (for "no man is an island" and all that jazz) but not emotionally.

If TPTB were eager to establish Mitchell's "legitimacy" at this point, then why not use a third-person narrative? It would be the most effective in this instance for at least three reasons:
(1) third-person POV suggests objectivity and could show that Mitchell's was an hero to many others -- certainly better than the "whispered reverence"
(2) it would make him seem "above it all" and therefore all the more admirable -- one of the things I like most about Jack is his way of shrugging off any praise or gratitude with a simple "it's what we do."
(3) a small dose of mystery never fails to pique interests in a new character.

Incidentally, I think Mitchell's POV would have worked much more effectively had TPTB waited a few more weeks. With everything else that was going on in the first episode, it just looked "piled on," as you suggested.

[Liebestraume]

Have you not seen Airplane? That kind of event really sticks in people's minds...

Jonzey, I think I did see Airplane, although whole movie (and my memory thereof) is a bit of a blur ...

Or maybe he's just reflecting on the traumatic event which resulted in him spending a year in hospital and ultimately lead him to where he is now. To me, he wasn't thinking ''I'm a hero! I saved them all!!''

Exactly! Mitchell has obviously been fighting tremendous odds to get back on his feet, let alone reaching his position now. The trauma he experienced was massive, everything about that time a blur. He was just recalling his meeting of the team he was holding out on joining and his battle against severe injury... Nothing leads me to believe he was just meaning "Gee, I'm a hero... I saved their butts...they owe me!"

I did say thinking about how he'd gottn to where he was "was an entirely reasonable thing for the character to do." However, when it appeared to be the only thing he was thinking, it became a matter of questionable dramatic choice. At least IMHO.

But, Teal'c didn't rush off....

He took off with very short notice, I'd call that rushing off -- his very legitimate reasons notwithstanding.

[Daniel's] thanking Mitchell and the manner of his refusing to stay on the team are two separate issues in my mind.

Agree they are not the same issue. However, the progression of the convo made them related IMO. I was not expecting Daniel to thank someone then not 5 min later go "this really isn't a very good time for you to ask this of me." --paraphrasing, of course.

[ChillinTheMost]

Thank you for your response, Liebestraume.

Like I said, I winced a few times when I thought they were trying too hard to make us like Mitchell through his backstory and the "reverence" of others. I love Ben and, hence, the characters he plays, but I can see how difficult it is to accept major changes in a show you love. I'm not saying this is your case, but I know it is for many and I knew if TPTB tried too hard, it could backfire. Thanks for being honest with me and breaking down exactly where you felt it went wrong.

I think we may still get a flashback or two of Mitchell's backstory, but I think most of it is over. At least, I can't imagine that they would continue in this vein.

Enjoy tonight's episode!

[Dani347]

He took off with very short notice, I'd call that rushing off -- his very legitimate reasons notwithstanding.

I don't know. That sounds like saying if Teal'c found out the place was on fire and he "rushed" off to help, that meant he was being rude to Mitchell. I think why he did something is just as important as the action itself. I'm not really sure what he was supposed to do, or what was objectionable about his behavior. If it was his rushing off, I don't think you (or, at least I) can't separate the reason for doing it. The fact that he had a very good reason makes the difference. He was very courteous. He didn't just arrange for someone to talk to Mitchell, he came and talked to him, himself. The main points of the conversation had already been taken care of. Teal'c offered to help him find other team members. How much more helpful and courteous can you get, especially when he had his own problems to worry about? A whole bunch of newly free Jaffa, some who were still loyal to the Gou'ald, and Teal'c in the thick of things, trying to convince them otherwise and get a new nation up and running? I would have felt it was perfectly understandable and not at all rude if he hadn't met with Mitchell at all, but sent word that he was busy (hey, even if the council was in recess, I'm sure there could have been something else for him to do. Even as far as thinking of the best way to present his argument once the council was back in session) and either asked Mitchell to leave or sent some flunky. He came himself. And, as far as he knew, Mitchell wasn't even in dire straits. Teal'c didn't even know Mitchell didn't have another team. So, he takes the time to meet with Mitchell, talk to him, offer him help (too bad if it wasn't the exact thing Mitchell wanted) and didn't leave until he was called away. What else could he possibly have done?

Agree they are not the same issue. However, the progression of the convo made them related IMO. I was not expecting Daniel to thank someone then not 5 min later go "this really isn't a very good time for you to ask this of me." --paraphrasing, of course.

I'm not sure why not, since not 5 minutes later, Mitchell was still trying to get him to do something he didn't want to do.

[valaCB]

I have to say sadly, when i see Ben as Mitchell, all i can see is JC from Farscape... . the same movement, when he speak and when he shouting.

[Kas]

I have to say sadly, when i see Ben as Mitchell, all i can see is JC from Farscape... . the same movement, when he speak and when he shouting.

Hmm, I can't say that I did. Compare, for example, the opening episodes of both shows. In one, we have a civilian astronaut - a little bit of a playboy - an extrovert and brilliant at the same time.

In SG-1, we have a man with officer training and bearing... a tightly-wound character at present. Haunted by injury but more subdued than the slight schizophrenic behavior that JC's experiences lead to. Teal'c managed to break through his 'officerness' and get beneath his skin for a moment when he fired upon the door I look forward to Ben creating the different layers of Cameron Mitchell.

For me, even in one episode, although the character has still to establish itself, Ben showed me a different man from John Crichton.