Gemini (811)

[Ugly Pig]

Hey, did anyone notice that this was the first replicator episode not to feature any old-school replicators whatsoever?

[Dani347]

P.S How big is this thread already? We brits arn't THAT chatty

A few of us Yanks have snuck in

[Thor's Gunner]

Your right about Jack sharing the blame, but he didnt trust RC, he trusted Carter to deal with it, and she let her emotions stand in the way, still everyone makes mistakes. And O'neil and Carter have a kind of secret passion with each other if you recall so it makes him harder to kill for her. They'll find a way around the whole thing though they always do, we really arent that chatty, theres just alot of us.

[Token]

Yeah... I'm totally experiencing this ep vicariously through you guys, but from what I've read, all of your annoyance/anger/confusion seems justified.

Just one question: Wasn't there a line at the end of the ep, where Sam said something like, "The fact is, she learned betrayal from Fifth, and he learned it from me?"

It sounds like a lot of people are right in the sense that she's gonna have a LOT to think about when it comes to how her actions helped RepliCarter gain control.

That is the line that has really stuck with me. I'm hoping the "betrayal" theme is an overall story arc for this season that will be resolved. TPTB have been writing it from "Unnatural Selection" "New Order" and now "Gemini".

As bad as Sam's decisions seem to be to me, I'm hoping TPTB are bringing the story to a full circle; and I, as a fan, can enjoy the completed ride. JMHO.

[Thor's Gunner]

The problem is they have to tie the domination of Ba'al over the system Lords ect. and the replicators into one now, which might or might not be tricky. They've delved into several dif programs to get this new story line as people have been saying, star trek, battlestar galactica, so im wondering if they are going to do a similiar development to those shows. I think RC will have a face off with either same or O'Neil or something.

[Lunar]

I'm not saying RC's motives are Sam's fault, but the fact that they lost the weapon against them is absolutely Sam's fault. She's the one who have RC access! And, she shouldn't be told that she didn't do anything wrong. She did something wrong.

I've rewatched the ep on Sky mix. You know, if you watch from the position of Sam, it becomes easier to understand why she made the (admittedly stupid) mistakes she did. They were choiceless, or believed themselves to be. Replicarter's 'kill me now!' approach at the beginning is terribly convincing. Carter was tortured by Fifth and knows how it affected her personally... Replicarter she believes to be almost exactly like her (the bit with the rain and the willow tree memory).
Yes, it was dumb to show her the weapon with hindsight, but they believed they were dead anyway. From their point of view they had nothing to lose.
You know, it's a pretty unique situation, a member of SG-1 screws up. It's not something that's often dealt with by tptb, and I think I'm glad it was, on reflection. Wish it hadn't been Sam's character that it had to happen to (because she's had a lot of negative characterisation this season and has, at some times, seemed like a hate figure to a lot of fans. I recall at one point her being labelled 'Sam the Wonderdrip.' ) but I think it was an issue worth addressing.
And telling her she was dead wrong would achieve what, exactly?
Probably driving her completely mad with guilt about potentially destroying the world and removing the only chance they have of stopping RC? Remember, as RC thinks like Sam, Sam thinks like RC. Carter is a major asset in the fight against the bugs, she's probably the only one who's likely to figure out how to break the cypher (if that's the way things are going to go). Ultimately, the buck stops with Jack. He could have ordered her to kill RC, flat out, right now. He didn't. He must have consented to letting RC work on the weapon (he's Carter's CO. No way would she have been able to do something so dangerous without his clearance.) Teal'c didn't stop her either.
The blame doesn't lie with Carter alone, and telling her that wouldn't be productive.
I have trouble believing you'd be so angry and quick to blame Daniel if he had been in Sam's position (because personally, if he'd been there, I think he would have agreed with Sam).
Feel free to red rep me all you want!

[the dancer of spaz]

You're right, Jack does share blame as her commanding officer. And, I don't see how other situations or what other people have done have any bearing on what Sam did now. If they've been sympathetic to people before that doesn't negate what happened here.

No, it doesn't change what's happened here, but it does point out a trend. I don't understand why everyone's so surprised that it happened. I'm not saying it should have happened, but it's happened before, and I don't think there's ever been as much of a bitter uproar about it.

Sam gave a replicator access to the only weapon that can destroy them. I don't see how that can be tap danced around. She did it, she shouldn't have done it. Regardless of what RC wanted to do. And, Sam sure should have had the common sense to consider that RC might want to preserve herself and not want to die.

Apparently they all disregarded that. Sam, Jack, and Teal'c all let their guard down too often.

Never trust your enemy to be truthful. So, Jack is at fault, but I don't see how anyone can say that Sam giving access to the only weapon that can destroy a replicator to a replicator isn't her fault. RC could have had all the premeditated desires in the galaxy, and maybe she would have found some other means for accomplishing her goal, but if Sam had been smart, it wouldn't have happened because of Sam.

Sam did something wrong. Yes, people make mistakes, and some of us are criticizing Sam for this mistake.

Yes. Sam did something wrong. Jack did something wrong. Teal'c's the only one who didn't do something wrong, apparently. The whole situation was allowed to go downhill, because of Sam and Jack trusting RepliCarter too dang much. I'm just saying... if we're going to do any blaming, why don't we blame all culpable parties, instead of just one?

[Shipperahoy]

People seem to be getting a little uncomfortable with the criticism of Sam and, as someone who's been doing some of the criticizing, I want to point something out. Yes I think Sam made a mistake. And I think it was a big 'un. I'm amazed at the fact that apparently nobody gave even a thought to the fact that Replicarter could possibly be lying about Fifth being invulnerable to the weapon. I'm stunned. Stupefied even. But I'm not bashing the character. I don't think that the character as a whole is an idiot, I think she did something idiotic and perhaps she'll learn from it. As people have said, everyone makes mistakes, but they also have to pay for them.

[Dani347]

No, it doesn't change what's happened here, but it does point out a trend. I don't understand why everyone's so surprised that it happened. I'm not saying it should have happened, but it's happened before, and I don't think there's ever been as much of a bitter uproar about it.

I think it's the nature of this mistake. Trusting RC is one thing. Giving her asylum is one thing. Could they still be criticized for that? You bet your boots they could. I think this went beyond that, and I don't believe the Sam of at least the first few years of Stargate would take that extra step into incompetence. It's like tptb weren't trying to let the situation evolve around the character, but they were twisting the character to fit the situation.

Yes. Sam did something wrong. Jack did something wrong. Teal'c's the only one who didn't do something wrong, apparently. The whole situation was allowed to go downhill, because of Sam and Jack trusting RepliCarter too dang much. I'm just saying... if we're going to do any blaming, why don't we blame all culpable parties, instead of just one?

Well, as I recall some people are blaming Jack. But, it's the nature of the beast, that the one with direct contact will probably get the most blame. And, there's also the fact that tptb seem to be trying to lift the blame off of Sam. I think there are two main problems people have. That Sam did it in the first place, and that Jack told her that she didn't do anything wrong. Couldn't Jack have told her that they'll find a way to remedy the problem? That he was her commanding officer and should have stopped her from what she was doing if he felt she was too close to the subject? Anything but telling her she didn't do anything wrong.

[Lunar]

I've been criticising too. I really was very uncomfortable after my first watching about what had happened, really thought it was a very stupid mistake on Sam's part... but more than that, it seemed very out of character for her to be so trusting of RC... and then to show her the weapon!
But re-watching it, I think I begin to see the angle the writers were (maybe, possibly, inn my opinion!) working from.
I just can't see how an error of judgement that was presumably okayed with her superiors can be 'punishable,' or how Sam can 'pay for it.' It was a logical decision, if a ridiculously naive one when taking into consideration the nature of the enemy they were dealing with. What other way could they have taken? Really? Waited around for Fifth to turn up?
What if Replicarter hadn't been lying? If they'd failed to capitalise on the resource that became available to them it could have cost them everything...
... of course, it *has* cost them everything
Bring on Reckoning, I say! I want to see this mess cleaned up!

[Thor's Gunner]

Yeah actually i was thinking the same things exactly, she basically went in there and said, Fifth is now invlumnarable to your weapons so i need to have a look at their specs and blueprints to see how they work to update them. But Jack did actually say' dont you find it odd that shes the only one that Fifth has not made immune to it?@ so he did think it just didnt say it directly.

[Shipperahoy]

What I meant by pay for it Lunar is that now Replicarter and her Replicator army are now invulnerable to the Ancients weapon and now Earth is defenseless against them. This can be construed as Sam's fault. And partly Jack's because he let it go on as long as he did. Sam gave Replicarter access to the weapon with nary a thought to the possibility that she could be playing them. I just don't understand that.

[Lunar]

I don't believe the Sam of at least the first few years of Stargate would take that extra step into incompetence. It's like tptb weren't trying to let the situation evolve around the character, but they were twisting the character to fit the situation.

Now we're in agreement!

Couldn't Jack have told her that they'll find a way to remedy the problem? That he was her commanding officer and should have stopped her from what she was doing if he felt she was too close to the subject? Anything but telling her she didn't do anything wrong.

And again, I agree here.
...I still don't understand why Jack's phonecall to the Asgard didn't end with them trying to zap the reppies with their existing machine and then if it didn't work involving RC....
Seems like a good way of finding out whether she was telling the truth or not without gambling eveything...But then of course, we wouldn't have Reckoning

Spoiler:

and the big Goa'uld/Replicator showdown.

I think Sam ended up caught in another plot device that reflects poorly on her character.
A shame, but I guess it happens to all of them at some point or another.

[Lunar]

What I meant by pay for it Lunar is that now Replicarter and her Replicator army are now invulnerable to the Ancients weapon and now Earth is defenseless against them. This can be construed as Sam's fault. And partly Jack's because he let it go on as long as he did. Sam gave Replicarter access to the weapon with nary a thought to the possibility that she could be playing them. I just don't understand that.

And neither do I.
Hence my orginal post on this thread about feeling a bit weirded out by the whole Sam behaving so naively...
And Jack...
... and Teal'c...
Put it down to poor writing for the sake of later plot development?

[kiwigater]

Actually, I think you bring up a lot of valid points Lunar.

How often have we thought to ourselves "gosh, I wish SG-1 weren't quite so perfect, that they would make the occasional human error"?? Well, I know I have. And, as you reminded me, from Carter's perspective the weapon WAS useless, and they had nothing to lose by having Replicarter try to adjust it. I still think it was incredibly short sighted of them to just take her word that Fifth had adapted, but from their perspective they planned to "dust" her anyway.

And, consider that the "immunity" of the replicators to the Ancient weapon, was IMHO, probably inevitable. Can we realistically expect that they wouldn't have eventually come across/stolen/aquired one of the weapons anyway? All it would take would be for 2 or 3 human form replicators to sacrifice themselves while wearing some form of the analysis equipment Sam used to send that exact information back to their bretheren.

So, I guess I think while they (SG-1) acted foolishly and hastily, they are, after all, only human (and it's about time one of their exploits turned around and bit them on the ass ), and I feel like the consequence is that they hastened the inevitable, rather than creating the problem. (my reasoning for this is that RC had clearly been contemplating this for some time. SG-1 was merely the easiest way to achieve her goals)