Affinity (807)

[muffo]

b) In NO, I also think she broke down on purpose as a tactic to reach Fifth's humanity - he was working on his revenge bit, she was trying to get him to feel forgiveness. As an aside I thought his line was hilarious when she said "humans also forgive" and he says "I'm not there yet." LOL

But then he went to torture her again and she breaks down. As a strategy trying to get him to feel compassion and forgiveness. BTW - it worked.

hrh[/QUOTE]
I agree with you. I was surprised when someone mentioned the difference in her reactions. I had seen the former episodes as resistance to giving information--she couldn't break down. But with Fifth it was not a question of his seeking information, he just wanted to cause her pain. Resistance would not have helped. I also thought that part of the difference was Fifth was IN her mind---maybe she had more knowledge of him that we realized--saw his weaknesses, so to speak. The other cases of torture were with a devise or drug, neither of which left her any choices but resistance.

[muffo]

Frankly, I hope they are. No man (barring Jack) that Carter has ever loved is immune to the black widow's curse. I say "Death to Pete!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Anyone agree with me?

Well. not really. Wouldn't that be a cliche if Pete had to die? Can't Sam just find him in flagrante with his ex-wife and decide that she was not interested in a threesome relationship? Or she could crash one of HIS stakeouts and discover that the only thing he had staked-out was his female pardner in the back seat of the van. All sorts of possibilities not involving the D word. Just so he gets out of Sam's life.

[majorsal]

<snip>


If Jack and Sam "ride off into the sunset" at the end, then that can't happen for me. And it won't just be the Sam/Pete shippers being dumped on. It'll be the Daniel/Sam shippers, the Teal'c/Sam shippers, the Jack/Sara shippers, the Jack/Daniel slashers, the Jack/Teal'c slashers, the Jack/Laira shippers, and on and on and on. Every single pairing these two have *ever* been involved in will be destroyed, and every single fan who has ever enjoyed those pairings will be left feeling betrayed.

But why does everything have to be equal? TPTB have been going towards a shippy ending for Sam and Jack for years -to me at least- so why shouldn't they be allowed to finish it? As much as I don't like the Sam/PS pairing, the show has the right to show it the way it is (overt). I've read this rational before, and as much as it sounds fair to everyone, it also makes for dull shipping.

And when you think about it, to the J/S shippers, if they *don't* end up together in the end, in canon, onscreen - is it really that big of a deal? In light of the fact that so many different groups are going to be left blowing in the wind if they get what they want - would it really be that horrible to have J/S left in fanfic where they belong?

Yes. Because the writers themselves have given me this desire/idea. Ever since Chimera, I've wanted the same wonderful ship scenes between Sam and Jack as there was between Sam and PS, but I've pretty much given up hope on that. So what would I like/expect at the end? Well, it looks like a fishing invite is a real possibility, but I'd also like a kiss. And considering what I'd really like -think Chimera romance- I'd say that's shooting for the moon and merely getting moon rocks. But moon rocks are better than nothing at all. Like I said before, it's the ptb themselves that did this... I'd just like them to fulfill the promise I feel they've been making to shippers all these years.

Sally

[majorsal]

Frankly, I hope they are. No man (barring Jack) that Carter has ever loved is immune to the black widow's curse. I say "Death to Pete!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Anyone agree with me?

But Pete can't die... he doesn't exist, he's a chimera.

Sally

[majorsal]

This is a good point, Brihana

Jack/Sara fic has been around since season 1--long before Jack/Sam was overt.

I wouldn't expect the Jack/Sara shippers to stop shipping for them any more than I would expect Jack/Sam folks to suddenly stop shipping because Sam/Pete are now canon.

I think it's impressive that people saw so much chemistry between Jack and Sara in one episode that there are still fans of the pairing.

Jack/Sara are canon.

Sam/Jack are canon.

Sam/PS are canon.

Does that cancel them all out?

Sally

ps- btw, what's the big deal with canon?

[astronomicalchick]

.

If Jack and Sam "ride off into the sunset" at the end, then that can't happen for me. And it won't just be the Sam/Pete shippers being dumped on. It'll be the Daniel/Sam shippers, the Teal'c/Sam shippers, the Jack/Sara shippers, the Jack/Daniel slashers, the Jack/Teal'c slashers, the Jack/Laira shippers, and on and on and on. Every single pairing these two have *ever* been involved in will be destroyed, and every single fan who has ever enjoyed those pairings will be left feeling betrayed.

And when you think about it, to the J/S shippers, if they *don't* end up together in the end, in canon, onscreen - is it really that big of a deal? In light of the fact that so many different groups are going to be left blowing in the wind if they get what they want - would it really be that horrible to have J/S left in fanfic where they belong?

I'm a fan of a subtle fishing invite, and I would be pleased to see that, but if it was left open I'd be reasonably content. I know that some of my other fellow shippers wouldn't be happy with that... forgive me shipper family for being a subtle fan, you know I love you all!

As far as every other pairing being disappointed, well, you could ship for just about anyone on the show, I don't think it would be possible to keep everybody happy, I think that's highly unlikely!

[Jace021903]

Jack/Sara are canon.

Sam/Jack are canon.

Sam/PS are canon.

Does that cancel them all out?

Sally

ps- btw, what's the big deal with canon?

Hey Sally,

I don't know what the big deal is about it.

Although some folks get very distressed about what is and what isn't canon.

I think everyone should be able to see what they want to see and not be told there are wrong because something else is canon.

Just my opinon,

Jace

[Elfinwood]

I just read JM's behind the scenes article. Too bad, they did not go with his initial pitch. It sounded like a much better storyline than the one we got for Teal'c. Although it would have been reminiscent of the early season episode where Teal'c was on trial for crimes previously committed on a planet (name of episode escapes me at the moment), at least the episode would have been off world and the story sounds like it would have had more intrigue. Don't get me wrong, I liked the idea of Teal'c trying to live off base, but the storyline might have played out better if it had been written as something more humorous instead of the pretty girl next door in trouble cliche.

[Albion]

Wow - finally I get back into the forum!!! I can't even recall how long it's been since I was able to access this. Thanks to Darren and all the guys for finally fixing this problem.

And now that I'm back I don't have time to trawl through everything I've missed. Ah well - can start fresh with Covenant.

Okay - Affinity. Well, on the whole I enjoyed this episode. I loved all the team moments, from Daniel in the apartment (had the feeling that this had been originally scripted for Jack and Teal'c, which JM has since confirmed, but I'm actually glad that they had to go with Daniel instead as he was adorable in that scene. "How's the fern?" LOL), Sam with the guys, Sam and Jack (although I did think it was maybe a little cruel of Sam to bring up Charlie there. I winced at that one), Jack with Kendrick.

I found the murder mystery section of it rather flat and I'm a little disappointed to hear from JM that the reason for Daniel curiously knowing the name The Trust without any explanation in the episode as to how he gained this info is simply because Affinity was originally supposed to be aired after Covenent, when they do find out this info. That smacks of lowering standards to me and I'm almost sure that if this had happened in previous seasons, they would have taken the time to reedit Daniel's scene to remove that erroneous reference. It makes me a little sad that this wasn't done and I'm hoping it's not going to be indicative of slipping standards as we go.

At the moment, without knowing the resolution to the relationship, any Sam/Pete kissy face scenes make me too twitchy to watch with anything but unease. I know that in later years I'll either enjoy these scenes for the red herring they are or I'll be doing a lot of ff when I rewatch these episodes, so they don't bother me that much, but for now I can't enjoy them until I know how it pans out. So those scenes left me pretty much cold.

Part of my problem with Pete is that I just don't get any sparkage between him and Sam when they're on screen and I feel that the character himself is just too bland to be interesting beyond the relationship. For me, when Pete is on screen it's like watching AT act against a green screen. A blank space. As I commented on another forum, there's more there when she acts against Thor than Pete.

And the clues which were supposed to show what a brilliant detective he was were embarrassingly easy to spot. The cop who *didn't* spot them needs to be sacked for gross incompetence. I laughed out loud when Pete triumphantly pointed to the window opposite Teal'c's apartment and gave us the 'surprise' revelation "That's where I would be if I wanted to stake this place out." Well...duh. I could have come up with that and I'm no cop. And the placing of the body....puhlease, don't get me started. No way could it have fallen in that position, with its legs and arms straight as a store dummy. Come on! Sam is really slipping if she needed anyone to tell her these things - let alone Pete!

And I did think that for someone who is such a private person and considering how AT bangs on and on about not wanting to be defined solely as who she's dating each week, that it was very unprofessional and OOC of Sam to start smooching Pete at the scene of an incident, surrounded by the AF equivalent of SWAT teams. Even considering she'd just gotten engaged and it was - persumably - a heady moment. I say presumably because as always I didn't get the emotion coming through on screen.

Another reason I don't like the idea of Pete and Sam getting together is that I simply can't see her being happy with this guy longterm. Partly for the reasons I've already given. But I just get no impression of there being any deep love or passion here on Sam's side. I get the impression more that she sees this relationship as safe and comfortable, rather than any hint that there's hot monkey sex going on in the bedroom here. She never gives me the impression that she's madly in love. I mean, geez, she took two weeks to say yet to the guy. It hardly smacks of being head over heels, does it?

Anyway, despite all of this, this episode is one I did enjoy and will enjoy again.

It'll be the Daniel/Sam shippers, the Teal'c/Sam shippers, the Jack/Sara shippers, the Jack/Daniel slashers, the Jack/Teal'c slashers, the Jack/Laira shippers, and on and on and on. Every single pairing these two have *ever* been involved in will be destroyed, and every single fan who has ever enjoyed those pairings will be left feeling betrayed.

There is a difference here though that should be addressed. The show itself has set up the relationship between Jack and Sam. Most of the other relationships you quote are either only in the province of fanfic and have never been shown or even hinted at on screen or have been fleeting relationships quite obviously never intended to return to. Therefore, they can't really be betrayed if the relationship constantly referenced and bolstered on screen is the one which takes precedence. Anyone feeling betrayed because such a relationship doesn't pan out for them when that relationship has never been endorsed by or shown on the show doesn't really have a leg to stand on.


Albion

[brihana25]

But why does everything have to be equal?

Why does everything have to be one-sided? Why should the J/S shippers be given the ending they want when no other fan group in the world would get anything out of it? Who decided that the J/S shippers are the only fans that deserve to be happy at the end?

TPTB have been going towards a shippy ending for Sam and Jack for years -to me at least- so why shouldn't they be allowed to finish it?

I would say they've being "going towards" a shippy ending for Sam and Jack since halfway through Season Seven, myself. Everything that came before was subtle enough to make the shippers happy (hence you seeing it for years) but not make the other fan groups cringe in anger/hatred/outrage/disgust/etc/etc/etc. Before Evolution, it was subtle. It was easy. It was natural. It was cute. And I loved it.

Remember, I was a J/S shipper until EvoII.

As much as I don't like the Sam/PS pairing, the show has the right to show it the way it is (overt). I've read this rational before, and as much as it sounds fair to everyone, it also makes for dull shipping.

It only makes for dull shipping if your imagination is limited by what you see on screen. For some reason, I doubt that the J/S fic writers are really that limited in their talent.

Actually, I'd say it does the exact opposite. Leaving it all to the fic writers insures that you will never see anything onscreen that could destroy your faith in your favorite pairing.

Here's a scenario for you to ponder - after all these years of build-up, let's say you do finally get your validation. Sam dumps Pete, and she and Jack get together. You'd be happy, right? Thrilled? Then Sam leaves the SGC, abandoning all of her work, and her team, to go settle down with General Jack and have a couple of babies. She stays at home, cooks, cleans, and raises kids - that's it.

Would you still be happy? If the realization of your dreams resulted in Sam walking away from hers? Because with the opinion these particular writers seem to have of women, that's not outside the realm of possibility. After all, these are the same writers that had Sam come to the "amazing realization" that she absolutely cannot be happy without a man.

Yes. Because the writers themselves have given me this desire/idea. Ever since Chimera, I've wanted the same wonderful ship scenes between Sam and Jack as there was between Sam and PS, but I've pretty much given up hope on that. So what would I like/expect at the end? Well, it looks like a fishing invite is a real possibility, but I'd also like a kiss.

So you'd like to see Sam and Jack share a kiss, and go off fishing together in the final scene of the series. I've heard quite a few J/S shippers say that this is how they want the series to end. With a scene of Jack and Sam, alone, going off together.

There's just two little problems with that.

Remember those two other guys? Daniel and Teal'c? Where exactly are they? After 8 years (or 9, or 10, or whenever the series ends), are they not allowed to be in the final scene of the series?

And people still say that a J/S ending won't destroy the team?

Because I will tell you right now that if it turns out that Daniel and Teal'c aren't in that final scene, and if all four of them don't go off together at the end, I will never watch another episode of Stargate again. I will sell my DVDs, I will sell my books, I will delete all Stargate bookmarks, and I will destroy all of my videos and stories.

Because Stargate SG-1 should end with SG-1, not with Sam and Jack.

And considering what I'd really like -think Chimera romance- I'd say that's shooting for the moon and merely getting moon rocks. But moon rocks are better than nothing at all. Like I said before, it's the ptb themselves that did this... I'd just like them to fulfill the promise I feel they've been making to shippers all these years.

Promises they never should have made in the first place, which was my whole point to begin with.

I was a J/S shipper. I loved Solitudes. I loved D&C. I loved WOO. I loved BtS. And there was a time when I wanted nothing more than for Sam and Jack to end up together at the end.

That all came to a screeching halt after EvoII. When I watched an episode that I had been eagerly anticipating for almost six months, and I saw Sam more concerned about making mooney eyes at Jack than she was about rescuing Daniel, I realized just how wrong J/S had suddenly gone. And even worse was when I realized that I, as a J/S shipper, was going to be used against every other fan on the planet and when I realized that my happiness was going to be used as a justification for destroying everyone else's.

Quite frankly, I'm not that vain. My happiness isn't more important than anyone else's. And I'll be d*mned if I'm going to be used as a pawn in some stupid game TPTB want to play with their fans.

It took me exactly two episodes - EvoII and Grace - to go from being a J/S shipper to being vehemently opposed to anything that even remotely hints at it. Because as happy as it would have made me even 8 months ago to see J/S together, the games TPTB have been playing have pushed me to the point where I am now angry that they ever ever put it out there for me to see.

[brihana25]

There is a difference here though that should be addressed. The show itself has set up the relationship between Jack and Sam. Most of the other relationships you quote are either only in the province of fanfic and have never been shown or even hinted at on screen or have been fleeting relationships quite obviously never intended to return to. Therefore, they can't really be betrayed if the relationship constantly referenced and bolstered on screen is the one which takes precedence. Anyone feeling betrayed because such a relationship doesn't pan out for them when that relationship has never been endorsed by or shown on the show doesn't really have a leg to stand on.

You missed the point I was trying to make.

There was a time when J/S was just as "hinted at" and "fleeting" as all of those other pairings I noted. There was a time when J/S was just as "canon" as D/S, T/S, J/D, (insert favorite pairing here). Which is to say that it wasn't "canon" at all. (And I'd like to throw in here that J/S is not yet "canon." That Sam has been pining away after him and crushing on him for eight years is canon - that they are in a relationship or even that they love each other beyond Sam's infatuation with him is not.)

But. up until the middle of Season Seven, they were all strictly the province of fanfic.

And they all should have stayed that way. Period.

Last season, I watched my all-time favorite television show (one that I had watched religiously every Thursday night for 9 1/2 years) turn into a show that I didn't even bother to watch from January on.

Why? Because my pairing got made canon. And then got destroyed. I had worked for it, I had run websites dedicated to it, I had written letters, I had debated it and defended it against every other pairing on the show, and I (along with a few million other people) won. We got our pairing. And after two years of work, and planning, and dreaming, and build-up, we got a blissful month and a half before it all went to h*ll, and we got six months of the most miserable relationship I have ever seen.

Fanfic can't fix that, can it?

Fanfic can "fix" canon if the pairings are always left ambiguous, but it cannot fix one that has been made canon and then destroyed.

Making J/S canon has, in this ex-J/S shipper's mind, destroyed it. And I am now as anti-J/S as I ever was in favor of it.

Because there was a time when fanfic could "fix" the fact that they weren't together. But now that we are watching the characters destroyed by it, defined by it, hated and reviled because of it... fanfic can't "fix" canon character destruction. It can't even come close.

[Shipperahoy]

This is an interesting debate and I, for one, would like to continue it. Especially seeing as how it has remained so civil. However, may I suggest taking it over to the Ship Discussion thread. I think ship debate is better suited for that thread so that this thread can remain about Affinity. In fact I think that I may go ahead and resurrect it myself.

Shipperahoy
Gateworld Forum Moderator

[m_wendy_r]

It took me exactly two episodes - EvoII and Grace - to go from being a J/S shipper to being vehemently opposed to anything that even remotely hints at it. Because as happy as it would have made me even 8 months ago to see J/S together, the games TPTB have been playing have pushed me to the point where I am now angry that they ever ever put it out there for me to see.

That's interesting. I, in some way, agree with what you're saying. I was a S/J shipper too. But now I'm not.

My reasons were similar to yours. I was happy with the hints and the we can see it but those that aren't see something else. I liked that, it made me come online and read fanfiction. But that isn't the case now, I don't want the last episode to be Sam and Jack either. I don't even want them to get together now, I want it to remain on the course it is, as we saw in Affinity. I want her to marry Pete and leave her commanding officer as her commanding officer and friend.

Wendy
Hugs

[DarkQuee1]

SPOILERS FOR ENDGAME

I hope not. I would like to think Sam is moving forward instead of just "settling".


Obviously the story arc called for the bad guys to get the code. I kept expecting there to be another shoe to drop, but nothing. However, you're right -there may be more to this story and Daniel's actions than we've seen.

As to Sam, I think they way they went about it, it *did* come off as settling. And I don't think it's going to last. Just MO.

As for the code: Of course there's more to it. It clearly enabled the Trust to get aboard Osiris' ship (I'm positive that's where they went from the warehouse) and get control of the ship, thereby enabling them steal the Stargate. Thanks, Daniel.

BTW, I'm glad that JM explained why Daniel knew about the "Trust". Now if he would just explain why they reversed the order of the episodes.


J.

[m_wendy_r]

I think you'll find that the program is called Stargate - SG1 and therefore revolves around the 4 (or 3) members of the SG1 team. If it was just about the stargate it would be called Stargate.

ABSOLUTELY!

Yeah, I agree. Stargate SG-1 is about Jack, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c who go through the Stargate.

I just want to also point out, not to you, that this is NOT the first episode that hasn't featured the Stargate.

Wendy
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