Abyss (606)

[garhkal]

Put two guys in an empty cell, give them no props at all, put everything else into the writing and have a director as Martin Wood take care of it. Then that whole thing can turn out to finally demonstrate, that you have brilliant actors, writers and directors working for the show.

It really sucks imo that the acting in this ep, was never really recognized by any award show other than the Saturn awards..

[enibas5]

Oh, I don't know. PDL did Tangent, which is also a marvelous stick-two-men-in-a-small-space and let them talk episode.

Ehm..no, to me that was a totally different setting. The setting really did not in any way focus on the interaction between the characters and concerning the directors skills, well...there was not any movement required - or better, there was not any movement possible. One cannot compare these two eps, just because in both happen to be two men talking.

Also Lifeboat

I think, you guys got me wrong. I do not say, that PDL cannot direct a non-action-ep., but I do not see, where lifeboat stood out in terms of directing. It did not have to, because the subject of the acting - the different personalities - were so powerful, that there was no need for specials. Again, it is not comparable to "Abyss". Watch "Abyss" closely and look for the camera angles and how often they change to stress a given situation/emotion within that cell, and how the close-ups fit in...to mention only one aspect of that piece of direction.

[Janet Fraiser]

Ehm..no, to me that was a totally different setting. The setting really did not in any way focus on the interaction between the characters and concerning the directors skills, well...there was not any movement required - or better, there was not any movement possible. One cannot compare these two eps, just because in both happen to be two men talking.



I think, you guys got me wrong. I do not say, that PDL cannot direct a non-action-ep., but I do not see, where lifeboat stood out in terms of directing. It did not have to, because the subject of the acting - the different personalities - were so powerful, that there was no need for specials. Again, it is not comparable to "Abyss". Watch "Abyss" closely and look for the camera angles and how often they change to stress a given situation/emotion within that cell, and how the close-ups fit in...to mention only one aspect of that piece of direction.

Have you listened to the commentary by PDL for Lifeboat? It's interesting hearing about how they made the story work in one room and the challenges associated with doing so (like with regard to the cameras).

Lifeboat certainly stands out to me for its acting, but I also liked the angles and the changing closeups of Daniel and Janet as he's switching through all of those personalities, and both are uncertain and uneasy in that isolation room. That aspect really did stand out to me.

To be honest, I think it's a matter of preference and what you, as a viewer, paid the most attention to that would qualify one episode as being superior to the other. I've noticed that a number of episodes you've called "average" or "weak" are ones that I really like, so I'm not sure that they can be such objective terms. I'm not saying you can't say that, but I'm just pointing out that there are differing views on how well each episode was handled.

[enibas5]

To be honest, I think it's a matter of preference and what you, as a viewer, paid the most attention to that would qualify one episode as being superior to the other. I've noticed that a number of episodes you've called "average" or "weak" are ones that I really like, so I'm not sure that they can be such objective terms. I'm not saying you can't say that, but I'm just pointing out that there are differing views on how well each episode was handled.

Oh, I absolutely agree. If I comment here on episodes, calling them weak or average, I do not bother to stress the fact that this is just a personal opinion/preference, for I take it for granted to be the case with almost every single comment in the various episode threads.

I might have pushed that a little bit too much now in my effort to convince you, how brilliantly "Abyss" is done. 'Cause finally, that can also be only an opinion. I just think, PDL would have directed it differently; and "differently" for me would have been "worse", because I cannot think of any other way to get the result, Martin Wood achieved.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

I don't disagree that Abyss is brilliant. However, I think Tangent is brilliant, too, because you felt for the two men--who couldn't even look at each other when they spoke. I don't think Martin Wood could have done a better job.

In any case, I agree that a PDL directed Abyss would've been a different critter, and so would a MW directed Tangent.

Seaboe

[Falcon Horus]

I have a feeling that enibas5 is leaning towards Abyss as the better of the two because it's Jack and Daniel talking, while in Tangent it's Jack and Teal'c. If I'm not mistaken, then I've seen comments on episodes with Teal'c that she cares not (much) for the Jaffa.

This clouds the judgement a little when looking at an episode as a whole.

[enibas5]

Oh, please. Do you read me to be that shallow?
Do you really want to compare those dialogues and the whole setting?
Teal'c is looking straight ahead and doing the usual "I'll die free or well or whatever talk", summing up - I did not count - to maybe 20 sentences within the whole ep.?
You really want to call that an intense dialogue as seen in Abyss?
RDA had a little bit more (voice) acting to do, with getting more and more tired and hopeless while on the radio and suffering from hypoxia.
It is not a downgrade, because that is Teal'c character. Of course, you cannot do an ep. like Abyss with his character. That does not have anything to do with liking the character or not. Actually, I like him. He was essential for the show. But for me Teal'c always was a supportive character, with a background that I did not really take interest in - or rather, the background presented (family, Bra'tac, etc.) was enough for me to know.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. IMO, both episodes are brilliant--sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with dialog. I believe PDL could've directed a brilliant Abyss, but that it would not have been the same (for myriad reasons that I'm not going to set out here). I believe MW could've directed a brilliant Tangent, ditto.

Seaboe

[Falcon Horus]

Oh, please. Do you read me to be that shallow?

You did mention you consider yourself a female who watches mainly for the male character - so it wasn't that much of a stretch to jump to a conclusion. Don't worry, however, considering the activity of the male character threads, I would say your in good company.

However, judgements are always clouded by what we like or don't like, no matter how hard we try to tell ourselves that isn't true. My favorite character in SGA appears in a grand total of 5 episodes so I automatically rate them higher than all the others, even though there are some absolutely brilliant episodes in the other 195 or so episodes.

[enibas5]

You did mention you consider yourself a female who watches mainly for the male character - so it wasn't that much of a stretch to jump to a conclusion.

Nope! Did not write that anywhere. What I wrote, was, that I had even tested myself, if I might dislike eps. that focus on Carter, because she is female and IF I might just like ohter eps. better, because they focous on the male characters, which I consider to be quite self-reflecting, while you are trying to construct a proof of shallowness out of this fact. Within the same posting I then wrote, that this does not seem to be the case and pointed out, why it DOES NOT have to do with Carter being female, but with Carter herself.

[...]
Out of 214 eps. there might be around 6-8 that I do not rewatch anymore, for I do not want to waste my precious time. However, as with other eps. I dislike, I at least did rewatch them twice, before abandoning for good.
It did not help with "Grace". Rewatching led to a minor better understanding of the plot, but not a bit to better entertainment. It is just completely boring.
Since I feel that way a lot, when it comes to eps. that focus on Sam (can't stand 'Death Knell' either), I even checked myself, if it might just be a result of, as me being female, generally wanting to have the focus on the male characters. But, nope! That's not the reason. Sam just is not so complex as indicated in eps. like "Grace". There are over 100 eps. before, showing her very one-dimensional military character.We've known her for 7 years now, and all of a sudden TPTB want to make believe that she is so much more than this? No, I don't buy it. If she were, it would have shown before.[...]

So, it is not very pleasant, if you make statements of me having posted something which is not true. It is especially not very nice to go even further and trying to draw connections to threads, that I have not even once looked into and that obiously focus on the male characters. It is a manipulative way of shutting someone up. Did I mention, that all this is not very nice? Ok, no reason for hard feelings on this side. Just keep that in mind for future postings, please.

However, judgements are always clouded by what we like or don't like, no matter how hard we try to tell ourselves that isn't true. My favorite character in SGA appears in a grand total of 5 episodes so I automatically rate them higher than all the others, even though there are some absolutely brilliant episodes in the other 195 or so episodes.

Yes, of course they are clouded - but there do also exist objective facts. And that the whole setting of "Tangent" is not comparable to "Abyss" is a fact, that it is obvious, regardless if both eps. can be judged as brilliant in their own ways.
As to your favourite character: Adria?

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

Your opinion concerning the settings not being comparable is not a fact. It is an opinion. Just as mine is.

Seaboe

[enibas5]

No, it is not. Because, if not anything else, you can literally see the different setting. Even though I initially used that term on a wider range.

[Falcon Horus]

My apologies for making assumptions. No need to be hostile about it.

That's just how I interpreted it - clearly I was wrong.

But why are male character episodes more self-reflective? Can't female characters be self-reflective?

[enibas5]

My apologies for making assumptions. No need to be hostile about it.

I am not. But you saw, that it takes a lot of sentences to clearify a false statement. And since this was about me as a person, I of course wanted to correct it.

But why are male character episodes more self-reflective? Can't female characters be self-reflective?

Ha ha, when I read, what I had written I wondered if that sentence is structured in a way that may lead to misunderstanding. Now, I see - it obviously is. Please read again. "Self-reflective" refers to me, not to the male characters. That sentence was just poorly structured.

[Anja]

Too much torturing but good Jackson/O'Neill lines and an O'Neill just about to break down.
Something new here, new side of the character.
Clever SG1 - sweet ending.