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**Merlin's_Legacy** · 23 June 2007, 08:15 PM

I have to say that to me, this episode felt more like a new beginning than an ending. I have always loved the Asgard. From our first meeting with them in Fifth Race, I knew they were special. As alien as they were, in many ways, they seemed more human than most of the other advanced races we encountered. Their departure reminded me of the end of the Shadow War from Babylon 5. An Elder race decided that Humans have reached a point where they can truly hold their own in the universe. And what's more, the Asgard have enough faith in us to entrust US with their legacy. They could just as easily have called the Nox, and given them the knowledge, but they didn't. That just shows that they feel a stronger kinship with us. And then, like all good parents, they warn us not to repeat their mistakes.

Very well done on the Asgard's departure, and Humans taking our place as the 5th Race. Had to laugh at Daniel's "It's the voice." comment, knowing that he does the voice for Thor.

As for Daniel and Vala, I was happy with that. It's been obvious to me for quite a while that Daniel actually cares very deeply for Vala. If you really think about that and Vala's personality, then Daniel's reaction to her proposition was totally understandable. Imagine caring for someone and thinking that your relationship would never move beyond "just good friends". Daniel obviously wanted something more from Vala, but not if it was going to just be a matter of "something to do to kill time". When he realized that Vala was being genuine, he came to his senses. And given Vala's actions in the past, I think Daniel's kiss was all the apology she needed. Actions speak louder than words for her.

All in all, I was happy with the episode. Would have liked to have seen Jack and General Hammond, but the underlying theme of the episode was "Time moves on and things change, even if you think you're standing still."

**Sue_Jackson** · 23 June 2007, 08:27 PM

Wow. What bittersweet that was.

I cried when the Asgard died off. When Thor said that they were dying, that's when I started crying. I'm sorry to see those guys go. I absolutely love the Asgard. They were, by far, the best alien allies. It was nice seeing Thor again. It was profound when Thor said to Sam that the Tauri are officially the fifth race. I was like wow so we finally made it. They are gonna be terribly missed. I loved Unending. It looks like they (TPTB) practically blew the budget on the VFX/CG. It was nice seeing the whole gang together including Landry.

And.....yay.....Daniel and Vala finally kissed. I was so happy. And, from look of Vala coming out of Daniel's quarters. Looks like they finally had sex. Although, they probably would never remember. Though, you never know. We do have the two movies.

How about that nice little tribute Sci-Fi did at the end. That's what did it for me. I was crying through that thing.

**the fifth man** · 23 June 2007, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Sue_Jackson View Post

How about that nice little tribute Sci-Fi did at the end. That's what did it for me. I was crying through that thing.

Personally, I have mixed feeling about that tribute. It was nice, yes, but on the other hand, Sci-Fi is the one that canceled SG-1.

**newbiegater** · 23 June 2007, 08:43 PM

My brother and I were planning to watch the show last night, but it didn't tape! We're going to have to wait until it shows again, or borrow it from someone else. Quite a pain.

**the fifth man** · 23 June 2007, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by newbiegater View Post

My brother and I were planning to watch the show last night, but it didn't tape! We're going to have to wait until it shows again, or borrow it from someone else. Quite a pain.

I'm very sorry to hear that.

**suse** · 23 June 2007, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by Star Fox View Post

and now thats us

at least we finally won our place with them as the 5th Race, now where did those Ferlings run off to...

We (Earth humans) didn't 'win' anything. It was (imo) *very* lamely *given* to us.

I liked the Asgard. And don't believe they would come to that conclusion. Except to help future (bad) plots.

Yes I know SG-1 has been cancelled. I'm thinking Barf of Truth

suse

**Hatusu** · 23 June 2007, 09:47 PM

Not bad but not what I wanted.

The episode started with lots of promise. It was full of emotion with Thor announcing the death of his race and telling Carter, "YOU are the fifth race.". Amanda Tapping's reaction was perfect. She rocked back in shock, then hugged Thor.

That was good writing. After that, the episode bored me. Not enough weight was given to the demise of the Asgard. The episode rushed into action, then stopped dead with the long drawn out 50 years on the ship. "Star Trek, The Next Generation" did a better job with the living a lifetime in one episode idea. Admittedly, it's difficult to be interesting while trapped on a small ship with only a few people and nowhere to go.

The Daniel and Vala scene was done well. I didn't want the match; I REALLY DIDN'T WANT THE MATCH, but it was believable in this context and well acted. Unfortunately it was ruined for me by my friend groaning "Oh, yuck!" during the whole scene.

It was further ruined for me by Vala prancing out of the room the next morning in front of Cam. That cheapened the previous scene.

The aging scenes weren't handled all that well. The make-up wasn't believable and the wigs were worse. Nothing really happened, either. I found myself writing my own scenes: Was Carter agonizing over the possibility of returning to Stargate Command and General O'Neill as an old woman? Would Cam approach her? I bet he did and she declined. She probably thought of Teal'c. Would I like that scene? How did they synthesize his Tritonin? Were they dining on "the little yellow ones" or eating human food?

Most of all I wondered why they didn't acknowledge their past and the people they lost and left behind. Just because they aren't on the show anymore doesn't mean the characters have forgotten them. We haven't.

(((Thor & the Asgard)))

**Khentkawes** · 23 June 2007, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by the fifth man View Post

Personally, I have mixed feeling about that tribute. It was nice, yes, but on the other hand, Sci-Fi is the one that canceled SG-1.

That's the way I felt. The tribute was nice, certainly better than nothing. They picked some nice highlights, emphasizing the team spirit and the values of the show (courage, heroism, etc), but it felt like a bit too little too late. A nice gesture I suppose, but it still doesn't make up for canceling the show.

Nonetheless, it did feel very nostalgic, so I could understand getting a bit teary eyed.

**suse** · 23 June 2007, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

This is more of a generalized *social* observation, than anything else...
Since I don't know who saw what or when, this is sheer speculation-- that such type of comments imply that either a few eps were missed pertinent to that whole, entire build-up; or else not much paying attention was given to the emotional build-up over all of the episodes over 2 entire seasons; or there's a possible lack of understanding in how human emotions *really* work when rubbed against each other the *wrong* way for eons of time.

Originally Posted by brulz
They went a bit extreme with Daniel being a big insensitive jerk. Didn't really fit his character.

Why was Vala crying? I kinda thought she must have lost a baby or something.

Some people are more patient than others. Daniel was far too patient since day one of Season 9, with Vala. From his

Spoiler:

There's been a fuse, an emotional explosion, that's been waiting to happen from day one, or day two - the day Vala joined herself to Daniel, because she tricked him. I think what was shown in this "season/series finale" scene was another such moment similar to the scene mentioned within the spoiler tags that I noted above. My gut feeling says so (and so does my "woman's intuition").

Vala realized in that moment (this episode) that all the times previous that she's manipulated Daniel into doing something *FOR* her, he's finally had it over his head with her antics and wasn't going to tolerate it any more. Vala was doing what any normal female would reactionally - knowing that she's just pushed Daniel over the edge wayyyyyyy too many times, and now that she wants to be comforted because they all believed they were all destined to die, she lost that moment of trust and comfort from Daniel.

To me, Daniel was just being totally honest with her - and spit out all of his emotions that had been building up since Season 9 began. That's why there our own world probably doesn't understand each other... because they're not recognizing those other sparks that ignite situations further down the road.

The above also applies to the below..

I'm not up to par on these title codes, so I have no idea which eps or what OOT and OOC translate as. However, as for Vala not reacting to Daniel's outburst rant by smacking Daniel when he finally started to listen to her sniffles - her turning away from him was enough to get the message thru to him that her tears were real, and not another ploy at manipulating him. Like many people who don't think before they leap, she obviously didn't consider Daniel ever turning her away at some point in her life. He always kept glutting for more punishment, every single time he forgave her. But how many times is enough before a person blows their stack? 50 times? a thousand? a million??

Some people loathe it when they are manipulated by tears. They've been conned in reality from whining done by other people / persons so many times, that the tears become meaningless; and when the tears are finally genuine, it's a hard call on discerning that moment as *genuine* emotion, and not another moment of sheer manipulation. There's a difference. Some people in our real world don't know that difference for that *VERY* reason.

anyway...
Daniel was always getting smacked from Vala emotionally every time he gave in to her little "begging" instigations. Well, also, considering that this was supposed to potentially end up being Stargate's last SG-1 episode, ever (potentially), there wouldn't be a next time to tell Vala off.. or shoot off all the steam that's been building up all those months (and it actually goes back to Season 8, when she manipulated Daniel during their first encounter, too!).

She *never* quit manipulating...! Manipulating was Vala's life - that's all she ever knew how to do, because her daddy taught her - and she realized it with him.. so now, she's learned Daniel's fed up with her as much as she was with her own father and her actions have sort of come full circle, so to speak (back to bite her, and during a moment when she'd be most vulnerable and least wanted it to hurt or sting).

oh sure, sometimes she might back off, but Vala was ALWAYS back to see how much more "wool" she could pull over Daniel's eyes and heart; and that of anyone else she could try the same tactics on, as well. Others around her didn't tolerate her antics as much as Daniel did. IMHO, his reactions were well within the norms of his character's personality... altho possibly wayyyyyyyyy overdue, too more than what most people would tolerate from another human being manipulating their heart's strings...

Hope that made sense. Based on everyone's comments in other episode topics, as well (from the ones who complained about the entire Vala/Daniel disputes, forgiveness routines, etc. from the beginning), if the writers were intending to help the audience examine our own hearts (socially speaking as a world full of misunderstandings from sheer emotions, etc.) on a whole deeper level, I think that opens up a whole new subject just from these 2 SG-1 seasons (via thru the whole Vala / Daniel relationship).

BTW, I forgot to mention about the AU - it was in a sense, but not completely (maybe an alternate reality with an exception is a better way to describe what happened). Everything that actually happened wouldn't be remembered, unless Teal'c breaks his silence
("silence is golden"), and that's only if the others told him everything he wasn't in the same rooms with them, when such moments did occur.

Just becasue I didn't psychoanalyse Daniel doesn't mean I don't get why he blew up. It still felt Out of Character. After 2 years spent not responding especially. He could have just walked out - angrily -after a sharp comment. But then we wouldn't have the kiss/implied sex .

Oy. No way. Not that way. But he was cruel. Horribly cruel. OOC even. IMO. I never saw sexual tension there so don't see D/V anyway. <shrug>

Oh, I don't think the writers thought deeply enough to want us to examine our hearts. If so they wouldn't have given us the tripe they have for the last 2 years.

Dom costuming, sexual harrassment, maturity regression when they realized Dom!Vala was OverTheTopfor a sustainable character. Thought is the last thing they want. For Vala/Daniel alone.

That doesn't even touch the whole "Lead Male Action Hero *MUST* Lead!" aspect of Stargate Command.

ETA: I thing the "Vala crying" comment was about a scene during the montage, not when Daniel blew up at her.

suse

**SGalisa** · 23 June 2007, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by suse View Post

Oh, I don't think the writers thought deeply enough to want us to examine our hearts.

I'm not going to get into the possible examining of our own hearts.. silly enough thought as it might be, when I wrote it. Writers write whatever strikes their mood. To bring a distinctive clash between Daniel and Vala and make it real - within the eyes of any of the writers (to which I can understand most of what they put in there including the why's). That is the mood they chose; and Michael (aka Daniel) and Claudia (aka Vala) ran with it into the best extremes, as they could.

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

All the time thruout those earlier season 9 moments, Daniel gave in to Vala's schemes either by overriding command by the SGC, or from his own gullible nature; and now Daniel was stuck with her playing with his emotions, because she was bored, stranded, and tried pulling on his heart for that ultimate fling she's so desired from the beginning.

...
Most of the other characters Daniel interacted with, sure they spent time with him, and had their own evil sides with single purposed goals. Anyone remember Hathor? and how *Used* Daniel felt with Hathor? I mean, we're talking Daniel's DNA populating the universe there on a grand scale... Linea/Ke'ra got into Daniel's heart as did Shyla, but neither of them got under his emotional skin as much as Vala - and right from the get-go. Maybe it's different when you meet someone giving you bad vibes from the beginning, as opposed to someone who gradually deceives you...

Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post

...Daniel takes relationships seriously. He's not the kind of guy who goes for a one-night stand. We can see that as early as the movie when he turns down Shau'ri. Vala's advances have been very sexual, because that's what she's used to. And although she does have serious feelings for him (Momento Mori proved that in my mind) Vala doesn't know how to express them in a way that Daniel will understand. She doesn't realize that Daniel thinks she's purposefully messing with his head and his heart. But he seriously believes that she is just manipulating him to get what she wants.

Also keep in mind that Daniel has been manipulated before. Remember Hathor? Shyla? So he's hyper aware of the possibility that Vala could just be using him. Yes, he's overly defensive. But he has finally learned how to defend himself both physically and emotionally. He's not naive anymore and he doesn't want to be hurt again. Neither does Vala, of course, but she genuinely did not understand where Daniel was coming from.

an Adria Amen to that! And thank you for reinforcing the "Hathor" scenes. When Vala went after Daniel's belt, all I could think of was - deja vu!! OMG! it's *Hathor* all over again!! Oh NOooooooooooo!!! Daniel!! don't let her do it!! (please!).
Panic set into my heart for Daniel's sake.

True, unless Daniel told her over the years that followed that fateful night, Vala truly had no idea what Daniel had been thru before he met her. She saw him as gullible and handsome. Daniel saw himself as "wanton" bait and (he) wanted to run from the moment Vala chained him into the chair with that black suit of Anubis armor/mask she was hiding behind. Luv'd their very first encounter - the expression on Daniel's face was *priceless* .. utterly *priceless!!*

and not sure if this absolutely requires spoiler brackets--

(Daniel desperately squeamishly shying his face away)
"uhhhh, (please!) you're NOT my type!"

(Season 8)

gee, was that an *understatement* to everything future all the way back then?? (LOL!)

Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post

Yes, he seemed harsh. The scene was uncomfortable and tense, as it should be. But he wasn't out of character (OOC).

thank you for explaining what the OOC means.

**Forestia** · 23 June 2007, 11:50 PM

I'm going to be lazy, and repost what I put on the Samanda thread...

I actually thought it was a really good ep. It was not what I would call a milestone ep. That is, the Ori were not defeated or anything like that. However, it was an interesting scenario for the team to go through, and sort of symbolic of how long they have been together and how much they mean to eachother. The only thing I was frustrated about was that in the commercials on Sci-fi, they showed something with Jack, implying that he was in the last ep. That would have been cool if he was there, but that was not the case. Along those lines, as they were showing the team getting older, I kept thinking that Sam must have really wished Jack could be with her. I'm such a sap

One thing that I thought was cool is how Sam wanted to play the cello. I used to play the violin in middle school, but my school closed the strings program, so I was never able to learn it well. I have always wanted to take it up again. I also liked the moment where Sam essentially said goodbye to Thor. I thought it was very touching. I did not cry at the end, but I did think it was an emotional moment, knowing that it was the last time we would see the team go through the gate, at least in new eps. Anyway, I have to say although it might not have been the exact ep. I would have hoped for, I was pleasantly satisfied.

**SGalisa** · 23 June 2007, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Merlin's_Legacy View Post

It's been obvious to me for quite a while that Daniel actually cares very deeply for Vala. If you really think about that and Vala's personality, then Daniel's reaction to her proposition was totally understandable.

yeah, it's usually the people you care the most about that you end up getting hurt the most from, too. Daniel let Vala win more manipulation battles than she should have. He put his foot down on most of her advances, but not usually until AFTER she tricked him.. how many times?? too many.

yes, I do believe he cared deeply for her, but she just took too much advantage of his generosity and wanted something physical in return. Anything physical Daniel would want - he'd want to be long-termed and lasting. Not some stupid whim, trinket or feeling, that would be there for one moment and gone the next. At least he had 20 years before TPTB took it and poofed it all into being gone in the next moment...

still, I'm glad they all got all that rage that's been building up and up and driving some of us viewers nutzo along with Daniel's own emotionally driven moments, out of their system.

--------------------

as for Jack vs. Landry on the ship..? maybe RDA wasn't available (or he had other commitments), so Landry was written into the administrative role instead. Hiding the next comment for POV actor support reasons.

Spoiler:

as for inviting the entire cast back..? Interesting. However, I wouldn't doubt there'd be some people out there complaining about how those people were brought back. Besides, it might not have crossed the minds of TPTB to try that, since it was already done in the duplicated Carter "to-save-the universe" episode.

Originally posted by Merlin's_Legacy View Post

Very well done on the Asgard's departure, and Humans taking our place as the 5th Race. Had to laugh at Daniel's "It's the voice." comment, knowing that he does the voice for Thor.

ahhh, so glad someone else noticed this *voice* thing too! Vala speaking the newbie role of not knowing how to tell the difference.. Loved that aspect for the same reason of Michael Shanks // as Daniel/Thor - doing double (voice) duty, there! and even better - in the same scene, too!

**petemoretti** · 24 June 2007, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by SGalisa View Post

yeah, it's usually the people you care the most about that you end up getting hurt the most from, too. Daniel let Vala win more manipulation battles than she should have. He put his foot down on most of her advances, but not usually until AFTER she tricked him.. how many times?? too many.

yes, I do believe he cared deeply for her, but she just took too much advantage of his generosity and wanted something physical in return. Anything physical Daniel would want - he'd want to be long-termed and lasting. Not some stupid whim, trinket or feeling, that would be there for one moment and gone the next. At least he had 20 years before TPTB took it and poofed it all into being gone in the next moment...

still, I'm glad they all got all that rage that's been building up and up and driving some of us viewers nutzo along with Daniel's own emotionally driven moments, out of their system.

--------------------

as for Jack vs. Landry on the ship..? maybe RDA wasn't available (or he had other commitments), so Landry was written into the administrative role instead. Hiding the next comment for POV actor support reasons.

Spoiler:

as for inviting the entire cast back..? Interesting. However, I wouldn't doubt there'd be some people out there complaining about how those people were brought back. Besides, it might not have crossed the minds of TPTB to try that, since it was already done in the duplicated Carter "to-save-the universe" episode.

ahhh, so glad someone else noticed this *voice* thing too! Vala speaking the newbie role of not knowing how to tell the difference.. Loved that aspect for the same reason of Michael Shanks // as Daniel/Thor - doing double (voice) duty, there! and even better - in the same scene, too!

You're not right about RDA. He said he wanted to come back but TPTB <mod snipped with the reminder that the profanity filter is there for a reason> him up royally. He thought he'd do 5 SG-1 episodes and instead he only did 2...

**nccjones** · 24 June 2007, 07:36 AM

After being depressed by Unending, I decided to watch the first season of SG1 again and I just finished watching The Torment of Tantalus. Ernest Littlefied abandoned on that planet for 50 years studying the depository reminded me so much of Daniel studying the library of the Asguard. I'm actually surprised in their situation they didn't bring up Ernest. Even though they were in more comfortable surroundings, they were in a very similar situation.

I just found it very interesting.

**IrishPisano** · 24 June 2007, 07:39 AM

My biggest problem with Unending was the following:

don't read if you haven't seen unending

Daniel and Mitchell, in the 60 years they were in the dilation field, did not learn anything about astrophysics and space-time mechanics.

Teal'C was a warrior all his life, all he knows is warfare... Vala knows smuggling and is more of a cheerleader... Landry is a career airman, he knows more about military politics and warfare than anything else...

so none of those 3 could have learned enough to help carter

but Daniel and Mitchell could have. here's why.

Daniel is incredibly intelligent. yes, i know, he is steep in philology, archeology, etc... but his brain operates at such a level that he is capable of understanding and processing complex information... with a little effort, a one year of doing nothing but studying, he would be able to understand astrophysics and space-time mechanics

Mitchell is, i believe, a graduate of the USAF Academy and, obviously, an Air Force pilot... to get where he did, he would have studied at least the basics of math, physics, engineering, and aerodynamics... and do so successfully... especially considering he made it through flight school and became a jet pilot - jets being the most competitive non-NASA aviation platform... so he too possesses the intelligence and abilities to learn AP and STM...

no, neither of them would have been as capable as Sam... but i can guarantee that they would be able to understand enough to assist her and speed up their collective learning curve...

i would like to know why neither of them did this... daniel studied the Asgard language knowing full well it would be pointless. mitchell worked out. their time would have been much more well spent had they worked with sam... surely 1 year of study would not have hindered the research, and it would pay off with sam having 2 assistants...

not that any of it matters to anyone now but Teal'C... but they may have been able to shave off 5 years... maybe 10... maybe more...

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