The Cam and Vala discussion thread

[ACharmedAsgard]

I wont say they make him a fool, but what's the point in having a general if he's gunna be contradicted or ignored

[Pitry]

So they are not the police force of the universe. True so they cant arrest her for slavery and really need to leave the Goa'uld and Ori alone too unless they attack earth.

Put you are telling me they cant arrest her for stealing from earth, piracy for stealling the ship, attempted murder for leaving the crew on a deralict ship where they surely would die since earth has no other ships to go rescue them. Abduction and whats the crime for threatening to kill someone which is what she did with Daniel. She new the device would kill him if he didnt stay near her and she didnt bat an eye about putting it on him (note she didnt know it would kill her, otherwise she may have thought twice).

So they cant arrest people that commit crimes against them either. And now they have this criminal and she is useful but instead of doing the logical thing and locking her up the way they did Camulas (someone who commited no crime directly against the SGC BTW) they just let her run free and give her a security clearance. Even though she admits to being a con artist/theif.

I never said they're not supoosed to eb going after the Goa'uld or the Orii, obviously that's what they've been doing for the past 10 years. But they never arrested anyone. They never put them in jail. Why? Because after 10 years of watchign Stargate, I'm pretty sure they're not into the arrest without trial agenda, despite this kind of thing occuring in real life, and I don't really see how they can put a Goa'uld on trial. Don't recall the US ever claiming jurisdiction over aliens.
the SGC has always been in a state of open war with the Goa'uld, and now hte Orii. They're not taking prisoners, they're engaging them in battle until they get what they want and then leave. If there are Jaffa surviving whatever skirmish they're engaged at, they're letting them go (or have Teal'c ask them if they want to end up with the rebels ) - I don't recall them ever arresting a Jaffa.
And a lot of time, yes, they do walk away. They walked away in New Ground. They walked away in The Other Side. They walked away in countless other episodes - as a matter of fact, whenever it didn't concern the Goa'uld, they walked away.
As for Camulus, yes, they kept him as a POW. But he's a Goa'uld, that is, they're in a state of war, that is POW, not jail. It's quite a different thing, which is exactly why they could keep him locked up while he didn't do anything to them, personally, at the moment.

Again, as I've said, there's quite a way to go from working with her and let her roam the base. That last part does't make too much sense, especially the half arsed excuse of officially accepting her into SG1 in Memento Mori. But there's nothign in SG1's that would suggest they should arrest her, just like they didn't Aris Boch, for example.

How exactly do they know shes not conning them now? In fact, I think the uber innocent, "let me get as close to Daniel Jackson as possible" act just smacks of con artistry. Its sad that TPTB are too shallow to take it that way, because then at least it would be interesting and make sense. Although, it still makes all the SGC people look like goobers for falling for it. But then Coop does apparently think (as he said something to the affect) that the show is about a bunch of screw ups. And if they are screw ups and Landry is really as dense as he appears sometimes then I guess they would fall for the con.

Er, quote on RCC saying that, please.
Also, I have to say that I don't see nay point in having Vala lying to them about her motives for being a part of hte SGC/ SG1, sorry. What, have her turn out an ally of Ba'al all of a sudden? Of the Orii? That'd be just as cliche as her wanting to be genuinly a part of SG1, and I personaly feel whenever such a "twist" turn up in a television show that the writing team has officially lost it in a "we have to get the audience more itnerested" sort of way, roll my eyes and usually turn off the television.

[AGateFan]

So, come one come all and steal from earth and kill our people. You will not be arrested as long as we are not at war with your people. Good message.

[ACharmedAsgard]

So, come one come all and steal from earth and kill our people. You will not be arrested as long as we are not at war with your people. Good message.

Vala's intentions were not to kill but to aquire things. She has proven herself with her support recently and as ceased her theiving ways.


I doubt that your message is the one we are sending out. We aren't completely primative

[AGateFan]

Found jesus? Just like every criminal thats caught red handed. They learned their lesson and will never ever commit a crime again....unless its in their best interest to do so, of course.

I have no doubt that Vala wouldnt murder someone on purpose but where I come from (this is truely the law in Ohio) if someone dies while you are commiting a crime, even if you didnt mean for them to do so, it is still murder. If you are running from the cops and the cop falls of the bridge chasing you, you are guilty of causing his death. Valas disregard for other people is the same as a drunk drivers. Sure she doesnt mean to cause death, shes just trying to have a good time but it doesnt make the victim any less hurt. Theft hurts people too, despite how much TPTB and some vala fans think its just in great fun. Willful enslavement of other people definitly is not a joke... well I thought it wasnt. Silly me.

[ACharmedAsgard]

I Agree that theft does hurt people and that you might not perposly cause death but may of indirectly affected it. The enslavement of her old slaves was short lived if you remember and she was taught a valuable lesson.

Vala saved every living person on our planet and is continuing to do so. Although I feel the TPTB's methods of making her part of SG-1 are questionable to say the least, I feel that every mission she is in some way helping to fix her reputation. You can't change the past but you can still change the future in a good way.

[Pitry]

I have no doubt that Vala wouldnt murder someone on purpose but where I come from (this is truely the law in Ohio) if someone dies while you are commiting a crime, even if you didnt mean for them to do so, it is still murder. If you are running from the cops and the cop falls of the bridge chasing you, you are guilty of causing his death.

That's itneresting - while I'm not 100%certain of it, I'm pretty sure here (Israel) it's considered manslaughter, rather than murder.
The difference isn't in guilt, it's in intention - and yes, intention usually plays a big part when you're giving a verdict.

Valas disregard for other people is the same as a drunk drivers. Sure she doesnt mean to cause death, shes just trying to have a good time but it doesnt make the victim any less hurt. Theft hurts people too, despite how much TPTB and some vala fans think its just in great fun. Willful enslavement of other people definitly is not a joke... well I thought it wasnt. Silly me.

No, I don't think it's fine and dandy, nor do I think Vala to be perfect and that everythign she does is good. But you know what? The rest of SG1 blundered around the universe and caused some pretty big damage, too. The original, seasons 1-5, 1-7 or 1-8 or whatever way you want to look at it. Are their actions better because their intention was "pure"? The fact that our moral code would assume scientific knwoeldge better or purer than oen's own personal wealth is not an objective judgement, it's a subjective one, and as such, I can say that at the end of the day, SG1 messed up quite a lot, not all of it we're aware of - look at Double Jeopardy, so yeah, that ended up alright, but how many other worlds followed SG1's advice and rebelled against the Goa'uld just to suffer much worse fate? How about the Orii? Daniel's scientific curiosity threw an entire galaxy into a war they can't possibly win - how is he better than Vala, then?

That's where the judgement of itnention comes, where the murder vs. manslaughter issue takes place. I would judge Vala in a less severe way when I take all things into consideration - that she didn't mean for people to get hurt. IS she perfect? Is she a great person with a great personality? Nope. She's human.

[DEM]

Er, quote on RCC saying that, please.

"...It's amazing that people enjoy the show, because really, the heros of the show are a bunch of screw-ups who are always, y'know, causing horrible problems for themselves and for everyone else. I guess it's the fact that they occasionally make up for it, or get out of it, that, uh, keeps people coming back." -- RCC, Science of Stargate

[AGateFan]

If I remember right every member of earth that were caught willfully stealing from alien races were thrown in prison. Some were sentenced to death. Maybourn is the only other one who like vala was given a free pass and actually for much of the time when he was on the show it was about trying to find him and throw him back in prison where he belongs.

And we have no evidence how long or short lived Vala willfully kept those people enslaved. I also dispute the fact that Vala saved eveyone on earth. She stopped the Ori from coming into our galaxy for a short time and really that was more self motivated as she had serious issues with them, seeing how they would probably burn her at the steak again and all.

EDIT: And to clarify. Accidently causing someones death is not murder. Accidently causing someones death during the commision of a crime is murder. So if SG1 is doing what they believe is the right thing to help people and people die that would not be "causing death in the commision of a crime". If SG1 willfully hijacked some innocent persons ship and left them to die or placed a device on them against their will that they knew would kill them and they died then that would be "during the commission of a crime".

[Pitry]

If I remember right every member of earth that were caught willfully stealing from alien races were thrown in prison. Some were sentenced to death. Maybourn is the only other one who like vala was given a free pass and actually for much of the time when he was on the show it was about trying to find him and throw him back in prison where he belongs.

Because they were (all of them) citizens of the US and therefore liable to prosecution under US law. As you might have noticed from both Chain Reaction (Maybourne) and Shades of Grey and The Sentinel (Maybourne's men), they weren't charged with theft, which is what they did, they were charged with treason.
How can a non US citizen be charged with somethign that is to its very core an offence only US citizens can commit?!

And we have no evidence how long or short lived Vala willfully kept those people enslaved.

Yes, we do. 4 years from the day she was freed from Quetesh to The Powers that Be.

I also dispute the fact that Vala saved eveyone on earth. She stopped the Ori from coming into our galaxy for a short time and really that was more self motivated as she had serious issues with them, seeing how they would probably burn her at the steak again and all.

Loads of people do good things out of selfish motivations. It's called, again, being human.

EDIT: And to clarify. Accidently causing someones death is not murder. Accidently causing someones death during the commision of a crime is murder. So if SG1 is doing what they believe is the right thing to help people and people die that would not be "causing death in the commision of a crime". If SG1 willfully hijacked some innocent persons ship and left them to die or placed a device on them against their will that they knew would kill them and they died then that would be "during the commission of a crime".

And I'm still not sure what you're talking about sin't considered manslaughter here. Im not trying to say anything by that other than, different places, differnet laws. The laws you're used to aren't the only one, and while I would definitely understand why you insist on judging people by the laws you're familiar with, you can't expect everyone to do the same.

[Skydiver]

"...It's amazing that people enjoy the show, because really, the heros of the show are a bunch of screw-ups who are always, y'know, causing horrible problems for themselves and for everyone else. I guess it's the fact that they occasionally make up for it, or get out of it, that, uh, keeps people coming back." -- RCC, Science of Stargate

yeah, ok, what happened to the sgc being populated with the best and the brightest, exploring the universe searching for tech that would allow them to defend earth from its enemies?????

total diss to the military they used to respect by taking an admittedly oddball group and dubbing htem screwups mucking up the whole universe

guess that's coop's problem, he looked up the wrong definition of Stargate SG1 and has been making the wrong show for the past 4 years :rollyes:

[Pitry]

Thjanks for the quote - however, I disagree with the interpretation. Okay, so he shoudln't've used "screw ups" - but in essence, he's saying exactly what I did - SG1, since day 1, has screwed up severly and put the planet repeatedly at risk, and have caused good people to die. The fact that they also fix their mistakes doesn't erase those mistakes from existance.
I also don't think "the best and the brightest" applies here. To quote what Weir says in Lost City, while she might have a lot of experience in angotiation on Earth, she has none when dealing with aliens. And as I recall, Heyes answers at that point that neither does anyone else.
"The best" is only applicable when you have some scale to test it. It is not applicable here - who knows, maybe there are people who would have dealt with everythign SG1 dealt with so much better, but we never know becausde they never got the chance, and there isn't an objective scale to test that. The took the best of the USAF for a mission nothing in the USAF's training has prepared them to, because they had no other choice. Period.
Think of your own claims on the WSL endless discussion - while it's acceptable Jack should lead an SG team, specifically the flag team, because when he got the job no one knew what was required, it's unacceptable 8 years later to give that job to someone inexperienced, because by now you have a lot of other candiodates who have had their chance of proving their skills. ith the SGC, we're still in phase 1, not 2.

[AGateFan]

So you are saying that if someone who is not a US citizen breaks the law in the US the US has no right to imprison them? I would suggest any non US citizen reading this NOT come to the US and commit a crime as I think you will find this is incorrect.

[smurf]

I wouldn't call keeping people enslaved for four years "short lived". As I'm sure most people wouldn't wave away keeping an innocent person in prison for four years with "Well, it was only four years."

I would also expect anyone to have broken the laws of the USA (on US soil) to be tried by the laws of the USA. It really doesn't matter where Vala is from.

[Pitry]

So you are saying that if someone who is not a US citizen breaks the law in the US the US has no right to imprison them? I would suggest any non US citizen reading this NOT come to the US and commit a crime as I think you will find this is incorrect.

Don't recall I ever said that.
If I were to be arrested in the US for theft, I would be deported back to Israel, wehre I would stand trial and sit in prison, if so ends the verdict, in Israel. If I were to commit theft in India, for example, I would go through the same on India, not Israel.
However, if I were to be caught in the US passing US' governemnt secrets to another government, I would be considered a spy, not a traitor, which is what would happen had I been a US citizen caught in doing that. See the disctincion?
Now go back to Shades of Grey, Chain Reaction and The Sentinel. These people were tried adn convicted for treason, not theft, even tho what they actually did was theft - there is no law in the US that covers theft from aliens, so they can't put them on a regular trial for theft. This is why they used treason.
Vala is an alien, that is, she cannot be put on trial in the US, because she has no citizenship anywhere on Earth. This is why you allegory breaks.