A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

[thenimf]

You're an Aussie? Where abouts mate?

Perth, Western Australia

[JanusAncient]

But that's the thing, it's still didn't make it right - just accepted/praised. What's right is subjective to the people making the judgement. At this point, retrospectively, that was not good behaviour. It was accepted at the time, yes, but it was not by any means right. You never know though, a few more Republican terms and maybe society will suddenly deem wife beating and rape to be socially acceptable and Aztecs and Mongols will be viewed as pioneers or role models or whatever. But at this point in time, definitely not.

Exactly, except for the part about the republicans, I really just think they're misunderstood, pioneers, oh goodness I hope not.

[spg_1983]

Perth, Western Australia

You wrent hit by that monster of a Cyclone then were you?

[Lokii]

The Ancients may be guilty of being arrogant, but evil... no way.

[Karec]

Simply, They created us Mankind. The scourge of the galaxy. Destroyers of worlds.

The Alterans where evil

[thenimf]

You wrent hit by that monster of a Cyclone then were you?

Nah, that was Brisbane? Other side of the country...

[spg_1983]

Nah, that was Brisbane? Other side of the country...

Ah, well thats good! My australian geography is quite rusty.

[Wedo765]

See this debate could go on forever, its not the arguement over the Ancients and the Ori, its Science and Technology against Religion, it just depends on what your belief is, as far as anyone knows for sure,

The Ori may very well ascend their followers (although i don't believe it) and keeping technolgy away from the "their" humans would make their galaxy safer and no races are destroyed, and everyones better for it, no freedom, worship the Ori, complete Safety, and you never have to take responsibility for anything or grow as a people, cause your gods are always looking out for u.

The Ancients on the otherside believe that people should do things for themselves. Although there are a few exceptions (Oma) as a whole they believe that to acheive enlightment you must do it on your own. They think "their" humans are better off with free will and to do what they want, its the only way we grow, and eventually will learn to use the technology they left beind correctly...the most powerful things where used by the Goa'uld anyway and the Ancients aren't resonsible for that, they gave Humans life useing the Dakara Weopon, but have never encouraged a religion to be based around them, I will concede that sometimes they take their non interference a little far, the Ori for example, but its there guiding principle, and they still do try to help sometimes,

You can't really say that the either group is truly evil, cause their actions could be justified, the Ori could claim defense, or that they're only doing whats best for us, a few million dead is hardly a price if trillions upon trillions of humans in 3 Galaxies are safe under the Ori, so what if their not free to do what they want. And the Ancients have only done their truely horrible things when it was their fault to begin with, for example, Orlin helped the people of the World to build the weopon that repelled the Goa'uld, with the best of intentions, the people where "young" as the Nox would say, and tried to turn it on other worlds and would become no better then the Goa'uld, except it would be because the Ancients interfered, so the loss of one race, was better then the oppression of millions.

You can't use the technology theory to explain why the Ancients are bad. We haven't really seen much of the Ori's Galaxy, but their clearly as advaned as the Ancients, so far they have energy weopons, rings, ships (that may or may not have a hyperdrive) and one big ass Stargate. there may be other stuff scattered throughout the Galaxy we just haven't seen yet, and although we haven't seen it, there got to be some kind of Stargate system in the Galaxy, some way to power it, there may even be the equivalent of any number of Ancient things that exsist in our Galaxy. From what we've seen the humans in the Ori Galaxy are all pretty primitive so even if they found some of them, i doubt they'd be able to use it, even a Stargate may be beyond them.

[Wedo765]

I will however point out that the Ori say believe or die, and the Ancients when presented with this choice, rather then a fight that would cost lives, left their homes, when the Ori would be more then happy to destroy them, and that only the Ori have ever said they'll destroy the Ancients, and the Ancients just want to live in peace

[zpm!!]

The Great Plague, the Plague that almost wiped out all life in the milkyway galaxy, what if that Plague is the same Plague that the Ori were trying to use against us again?????
Great Plague= lots of death
Ori Plague= we have anti-bodies against now.

[Cherriey]

They like fighting? Once they're ascended they don't seem to like doing much of anything!
The Ori want to kill off the Ancients to protect themselves? Then why are they focusing on us lower life-forms who merely say 'no we won't prostrate to you for six hours every day'?

[marcws]

I dont agree that the ancients are bad and like fighting lets look at the good things that come from the ancients:
1)if it wasnt for the ancients earth would have been wiped out by the prior plague and if you say it was just orlin the cure in his mind came from ancient medical reaserch.
2)Anuibis would have invaded earth
3)atlantis would have been destroyed by the wraith if they didnt get the zpm
4)oniell would never have met the asgard in that episode were the ancient database was downloaded into his mind.
5)thanks to the stargate humans have explored the galaxy.
6)Humans would never had destroyed the goa'old.
7)Humans would never have brought up the weapon agaist the kul warriors
8)the replicators would never have been defeated.
9)if it wasnt for the ascended ancients which ascended oma desala daniel would have died.
SHOULD I GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just simply say the ancients are not evil.

[thenimf]

marcws, Cherriey and Wedo765


Keeping in mind that this thread is not proclaiming that the Alterrans are evil. It is merely here to point out parts of cannon that would allow to make the show go in that direction. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that the O'ri are good if the Alterrans are evil. It is perfectly plausible for the entire race to be scum. Just look at the Goa'uld. The best they could come up with was the self-serving Tok'ra.

[Wedo765]

I agree, I think thats the beauty of an enemy like the Ori, whereas I personally think their evil, you could conceiveably go either way.

From the Ori's point of view the Ancients are evil for sheilding us from the "truth"

From the Ancients point of view the Ori are evil for forceing others to worship them.

But both groups could be justified as only trying to do whats best for the humans in the Universe...

[MarshAngel]

marcws, Cherriey and Wedo765


Keeping in mind that this thread is not proclaiming that the Alterrans are evil. It is merely here to point out parts of cannon that would allow to make the show go in that direction. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that the O'ri are good if the Alterrans are evil. It is perfectly plausible for the entire race to be scum. Just look at the Goa'uld. The best they could come up with was the self-serving Tok'ra.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think the storyline could go that way without making a complete mess and basically contradicting the writing style that has been established over the last several years. I don't see the set up for the ancients being evil for the simple reason that I haven't seen any evidence of there being some gain for them in any of this and I think that would be the first thing we'd need.

The show is very straightforward good vs. evil. It would have been nice for there to have been more ambiguity in the series but there hasn't been much of that at all. I think that's one of the problems many people have with the Ori. They are basically just like the Goa'uld and every other enemy. They've been set up to be all one way, clearly, inarguably evil. We are clearly the good guys, they are clearly the bad guys and given what they've laid out there doesn't seem to be a middle ground on which to stand.

The only ambiguity that exists is in the human characters, and in the end they usually do the right thing anyway.

I will say however, that if it can be established that the ancients can gain something either from our existence, destruction, or the taking of something we need to survive, then I'd believe that the story could go in that direction.

The story set up for this would be that: The ancients have created a galaxy of countless of humans (as an army/counteragent of sorts), manipulated events just enough to seem accidental, set it up so that we'd provoke the Ori and force them to send their armies to the MW so that we would go to war, cancel each other out, weakening the Ori just enough so that they could destroy them. Or they knowingly built or allowed for the building of the weapon against the ascended knowing they couldn't use it but knowing we would, for the same end.


It doesn't sound so bad except it's full of plotholes and character contradictions. Of course if anyone can come up with a better version it would make for interesting speculation and good reading.