A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

[thenimf]

1 - not their falt. They did not wish them to be made, they were an acidental biproduct of humans and bugs that the Ancients later faught.

2 - Hardly a divise that causes chaos. A simple time looping machine that WAS meant to give the people time to cure the plague.

3 - The device is not evil (and the ancients knew how to use it correctly) they also used it to create humans (the second evolution - us) after the plague.

4 - Haven't seen the epsiode yet, so I don't really understand it, but I would guess that it was created to stop people, that are like the Ori, to ascend.

5 - Haven't seen them yet, but I would guess that was an acident or there is an overwehlming reason why that was a mistake or needed to be done.

6 - Now that is the least evil, just because a race latter turned this idea to evil purposes does not mean it is an evil idea. I was created to allow instantaneous tavel (that is neither good nor evil) and allow people to live on other planets and therefore expand the places people can live.

7 - What device is that.

However, the Ori can not be totally evil, because they did ascended. They just have a different view point, and most of ideas that boarder on evil (in the grey area) and are not as good hearted about life, as the Ancients are. However, they may have been corrupted by the power of ascention and become as evil as they are.

Read this thread? Your rebuttals have already been rebutted.

[spg_1983]

Essentially, yes. But not to the extreme that you're giving. If the weapon trapped the O'ri in their own galaxy then that would be fine. Basically your assumption on how the weapon works rules out the O'ri from ever interracting with humans again. This is bad because they have followers who seem to live perfectly happy and rewarding lives in their own galaxy.

Your argument is based on the fact that the O'ri kill people, yet it's not their own followers that they kill. In fact, you don't seem to care about their followers at all, just your own ass (assuming that you're a Milky Way resident human). Sure it's the most likely position you would take for your survival, but it totally misses the big picture. If you were one of their followers and felt you hated the slave life and wanted to take down the O'ri... then you'd be in a position to fight them because they are a threat to you... however that's not the case here.

The most effective way to fight the O'ri would be to overpower them in a way that prevents their invasion altogether. It'd be cool if the Holy Grail acted as a kind of O'ri repellant. I'd definitely rather see that than something that'd trap/maim/poison/torture/whatever harm them.

You seem to be forgetting that they DO kill their followers. If their followers are caught commiting heresy they are killed. The weapon does not harm their followers. It stops the Ori, thats all. You can't have a perfect solution to any threat. The Ori want to convert us all so they can leech off of us or kill us if we don't convert. The weapon causes no harm to the Ori's followers AT ALL. Yes the Ori wouldn't be able to act in this plane in their home galaxy, but so what? It doesn't stop the people form still believing in them if they so choose. The Ori and their followers would relish slaughtering all of us if they had the chance. Neutralizing the Ori is far far more humane than what they would do to us, yet you challenge the ethics of it? The ideal situation would be to somehow seal their galaxy off from ours, let them and their worshippers exist seperate from the rest of the universe, but thats not gonna happen. The Ori will keep trying to invade this galaxy until they have no followers left to fight or they win. The device stops them. The big picture is that the Ori will stop at nothing to convert or kill every last living being in this galaxy and any other galaxies they can find. The device neutralizes them with out harming their followers. Their followers can then choose whatever course of action they wish.

[thenimf]

You seem to be forgetting that they DO kill their followers. If their followers are caught commiting heresy they are killed. The weapon does not harm their followers. It stops the Ori, thats all. You can't have a perfect solution to any threat. The Ori want to convert us all so they can leech off of us or kill us if we don't convert. The weapon causes no harm to the Ori's followers AT ALL. Yes the Ori wouldn't be able to act in this plane in their home galaxy, but so what? It doesn't stop the people form still believing in them if they so choose. The Ori and their followers would relish slaughtering all of us if they had the chance. Neutralizing the Ori is far far more humane than what they would do to us, yet you challenge the ethics of it? The ideal situation would be to somehow seal their galaxy off from ours, let them and their worshippers exist seperate from the rest of the universe, but thats not gonna happen. The Ori will keep trying to invade this galaxy until they have no followers left to fight or they win. The device stops them. The big picture is that the Ori will stop at nothing to convert or kill every last living being in this galaxy and any other galaxies they can find. The device neutralizes them with out harming their followers. Their followers can then choose whatever course of action they wish.

So why aren't you protesting about Muslim women having their clitoris' cut off to reduce the chance of infidelity? Why aren't you out there supporting troops in Iraq? From the sound of it you are a lot about all people and believe strongly in repressing any opressors...

Also, you seem very passionate in your hate for the O'ri. And on top of all this, what they do to their followers is none of our business. If you disagree then you should maybe think about bringing your actual beliefs in line with your actions and spoken word... Unless of course you do protest for the rights of Muslim women and the welfare of troops stationed in Iraq, in which case - kudos.

[Spell_Daemon]

Read this thread? Your rebuttals have already been rebutted.

Sorry... didn't have the time, just decieded to rebut the original post.

[thenimf]

Sorry... didn't have the time, just decieded to rebut the original post.

S'all cool. They were good, and valid, points. But yeh, already taken down... to a sort of truce actually. *shrugs*

[spg_1983]

So why aren't you protesting about Muslim women having their clitoris' cut off to reduce the chance of infidelity? Why aren't you out there supporting troops in Iraq? From the sound of it you are a lot about all people and believe strongly in repressing any opressors...

Also, you seem very passionate in your hate for the O'ri. And on top of all this, what they do to their followers is none of our business. If you disagree then you should maybe think about bringing your actual beliefs in line with your actions and spoken word... Unless of course you do protest for the rights of Muslim women and the welfare of troops stationed in Iraq, in which case - kudos.

Excuse me? I DO protest the treatment of Muslim women, I Do support our TROOPS, but not the war. I am against repression. I don't hate the Ori. I oppose them and what they believe. What happens to their followers is my business and everyones business because they have been mislead and used. They have been led to believe that by worshipping and sacrificing everything for the Ori they get something in return but that isnt the case. They have been lied to and given up their freedom because of it and I oppose that. They need to be given the WHOLE truth and then allowed to make their choice. The Ori need to be removed from the equation all together so they cant influence and trick the people. The people need to be shown that they aren't gods and what they really are and that the Ori won't ascend them as a reward for their devotion. After all of that is made freely and openly available to them, free of the influence of the Ori, and they are allowed to make their choice. If after all that they choose to still worship the Ori then so be it, they make their bed and can lie in it, but they still must be prevented from carrying on their crusade of murdering unbelievers. They can be free to spread their message if they so choose, but they can not be allowed to murder those that choose not to convert.

[Mattathias2.0]

Since when were the Ancients bad guys?

Albiet, they made plenty of mistakes...

Spoiler:

Left tech around everywhere... The Replicators, The Asuras, The Wraith, The Dakara Device, Atlantis, The Aurora, The Orion, 'Ayiana', Chaya, Oma, Anubis...

Needless to say: They make a few mistakes.

Mattathias

[spg_1983]

Since when were the Ancients bad guys?

Albiet, they made plenty of mistakes...

Spoiler:

Left tech around everywhere... The Replicators, The Asuras, The Wraith, The Dakara Device, Atlantis, The Aurora, The Orion, 'Ayiana', Chaya, Oma, Anubis...

Needless to say: They make a few mistakes.

Mattathias

All true, like you said mistakes. Makes takes don;t make one evil. They may be labeled as arrogant, irresponsible, uncaring, self-centered, etc, but not evil. In order to be considered evil one would need to show evidence of actual malicious intent to cause harm to forces that were no threat to them through those actions or inactions.

[thenimf]

All true, like you said mistakes. Makes takes don;t make one evil. They may be labeled as arrogant, irresponsible, uncaring, self-centered, etc, but not evil. In order to be considered evil one would need to show evidence of actual malicious intent to cause harm to forces that were no threat to them through those actions or inactions.

Umm... inactions relate back to arrogance, irresponsibility, being uncaring and self centred. Also, I consider those traits to be inherently bad. Therefore, bad guys. I never said the word evil. That was something everyone else decided.

Besides, we've already pointed out in this thread that we don't know enough to make out whether or not they had malicious intent behind these "mistakes".

And if you read my recent post, I'm not saying that this is immediately cannon and that the Alterrans are DEFINITELY the bad guys. I'm saying that the facts that I've presented give the writers of the show a more interesting direction to go in.

[spg_1983]

Umm... inactions relate back to arrogance, irresponsibility, being uncaring and self centred. Also, I consider those traits to be inherently bad. Therefore, bad guys. I never said the word evil. That was something everyone else decided.

How do you figure? They are not particulalry flattering traits, but they arent bad. They have never done anything, as far as we have seen, to purposefully cause harm to any persone or group that did not pose a threat to them. By inaction I meant their policy, as Ascended beings and before that as an extremely advanced race technologically and socially, of not interfering with less advanced races affairs and developments.

[thenimf]

How do you figure? They are not particulalry flattering traits, but they arent bad. They have never done anything, as far as we have seen, to purposefully cause harm to any persone or group that did not pose a threat to them. By inaction I meant their policy, as Ascended beings and before that as an extremely advanced race technologically and socially, of not interfering with less advanced races affairs and developments.

I guess it's a difference in opinion here... I find that arrogance and such is not only unflattering, but can also be damaging. Just look at what happened to the Ancients after they met the Wratih... as Morgan (was that her name?) said, they had never encountered beings that rivalled them before. Their arrogance cost them the Pegasus Galaxy... not to mention the countless human worlds they seeded.

[spg_1983]

I guess it's a difference in opinion here... I find that arrogance and such is not only unflattering, but can also be damaging. Just look at what happened to the Ancients after they met the Wratih... as Morgan (was that her name?) said, they had never encountered beings that rivalled them before. Their arrogance cost them the Pegasus Galaxy... not to mention the countless human worlds they seeded.

But thats not really arrogance. They came across an enemy that kicked their ass. They may have THOUGHT before meeting them that they could never be defeated, but we dont know that, and that would be arrogance. As far as we know, until that point they truly had never met an enemy to rival them, in which case it isnt arrogance, it is simple acceptance of fact. However if we find evidence later on that they allowed the wraith to grow because they felt they could contain them and wanted to study them, then yes that would be arrogance, but again that doesnt make them "bad guys" in the sense of being an antogonist on the show.

[JanusAncient]

Any situation which allows for the Ori to kill us on a massive scale to further some glorious end is simply a matter of the ends justifying the means; a heading under which you can excuse all manner of evils whether it be rape torture or genocide. Convenient for your cause but no less evil. For one thing, if killing us justifies some greater purpose, why not just wipe out the whole galaxy efficiently? Why bother offering conversion, turning people into zombies, engineering bugs, and burning your own priors? It would make that much more sense to skip the speech and go about the business of extermination.

It will always be a case of the end result justifying the means, be it for good or for evil. I just don't see a difference, maybe this makes me morally bankrupt, but that doesn't bother me. I don't have it in me to harm another person, heck I can't even bring myself to harm a fly without feeling deep remorse, but I can see the bigger picture. They don't want to wipe out all life in the galaxy, all the other races will remain untouched, it seems that only humanity, well the humans created by the Ancients, and those willing to side with them, are the only beings in this galaxy they wish to destroy. Jaffa were given their longevity by the Goa'uld, but they still only exist because of the Ancients. Fear, intimidation, only kill if you have no other recourse, if they can turn people to their cause, without having to actually slaughter a race, why not do it, especially if they have the technology to revive a planets entire population.

You seem to be missing the entire point of my post. It doesn't matter if ALL ancients are good or not. It doesn't even matter if ALL Ori are evil. The Ori have never done anything that benefits us in the slightest; not a single one of them. In fact, since the very moment they found out about us they've been trying to kill us. No matter how self serving anything the ancients may have done is, at least one of them has done something for us. And those things are the basis on which we have to judge them. The only basis.

Haven't they, they gave them a choice between life and death, they chose to fight, they didn't attack them, they offered them their message and they refused it, in the eyes of the Ori that was an act of aggression, if you're not with them, you're with the Ancients. And, they don't have to do anything for them, for the Ori to still be right!

The entire point of what I just said is one good deed by one ancient outweighs no good deeds by the Ori. If that was the only evidence by which I was forced to choose in whom to trust, I would have to go with the one good deed.

No it doesn't, if all of their good deeds are self-serving ones. In any case, I'd have to choose the Ori, because I get the impression that they wouldn't let someone they ascended, just go and destroy all life in their galaxy, I don't care how evil they look at the moment.

No matter what the truth turns out to be in the end, as it stands, the Ori are still the bad guys and the Ancients are still, given the evidence at hand, the ones most likely to help, or if you like, most likely not to kill us all. Not a single one of the ancients we've come across, ascended or not, has shown any inclination towards harming us or our entire galaxy.

Those Ancients that wiped out an entire race of people, Orlin, Valona? Or, the one that killed the Jaffa, Oma, Kheb? Or Merlin's black knight?

[/QUOTE]Jumping to the conclusion that the Ancients are evil is like meeting five random Americans who, despite the questionable decisions of their leaders, are nice to you personally and try to help you out every now and then when they can without risking their lives, jobs, and everything they believe. Then you meet one dictator who represents an entire nation who immediately tries to shoot at you and then going hmm... maybe he had a good reason for shooting at me and killing my friends.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying the Ancients are evil, just that they aren't completely trustworthy, and that everything they say shouldn't be believed, simply because they said it!!

There is absolutely no benefit to jumping to alternate explanations while ignoring the most obvious. When someone tries to kill you, you shoot back. You don't rationalize their decisions and try to find a reason why it might be OK that they're trying to kill you. If you're right you're dead, if you're wrong, you're still dead and it won't matter if you died by the hands of the "good" guys becuase you won't be around to make the judgement call.

What's wrong with dying, if I have to die, or sacrifice myself doing what I believe to be right, that is something I don't mind. Rationality separates us from mindless, that only follow instinct.

We have no idea why the alliance was formed. It was never said that it was formed to protect against hostile races. In fact the closes thing to explanation came from Earnest's notebook:

Yet, it wasn't an explanation, merely speculation.

Will all humans be made priors? Will the Ori give ALL humans the knowledge of the universe? If this is the case, why did Tomin, a man born in the presence of all that great knowledge spend so much of his life lame when the the "knowledge of the universe" could have served to save him all that? He was born into Origin, his parents were born into Origin... where is their universal knowledge?

Will they? For all we know, not all of the Ori were able to ascend, just like the Ancients, maybe they only give such gifts to those they feel are worthy. Tomin, should they cure every physical ailment now, they most likely do more for the humans they control, than the Ancients will ever do. Who are his parents, for all we know that Doci was Tomin's father.

Seriously, Worship or die and worship and die is acceptable to you? Seriously? Quite frankly, that scares me. I would never want to have those choices as my only option. I can die now, or waste my life as nothing more than a battery and die later. Yeah, I can see how that might make them the good guys.

This isn't about good or evil, at least not as I see it. It is about right and wrong, good can be tainted, evil can be diluted, but what is right, just like what is wrong, never changes! I think the Ancients have done just as much wrong as the Ori in their time, and the Ori about as much right as the Ancients.

Furthermore, what would we be too late for? What do you suppose the evil plan of the Ancients is? It's hard to be late for a plan we can't even be sure exists, have no evidence for.

It isn't about plans, it is about reasons, it isn't about expectations, it is about contradictions, it is about seeing all of the truth, not just the moment to moment truth, that which catches your eye in that particular time of revelation. The Ancients nor the Ori are what's important, the people in the middle are. I guess I'm just unwilling to trust those I barely know, because they offered a hand, more for their benefit, than for mine.

[BnF95]

As far as I can tell, the Ori are "bad guys" because they don't allow their worshippers free choice ... for that matter, a comfortable life with technology.

On the other hand the Alterrans/Atlanteans/Ancients don't really care about the people living in "a lower plane of existence" either. Ommission by inaction is still bad. As someone once said, "all it would take for evil to win, is for good men to do nothing." Which is exactly the crime of the Ancients.

So ... why not just say that, as a race in general, the prototype Alterrans/Ori were a bunch of arrogant snobs that think they are gods.

[MarshAngel]

They don't want to wipe out all life in the galaxy, all the other races will remain untouched, it seems that only humanity, well the humans created by the Ancients, and those willing to side with them, are the only beings in this galaxy they wish to destroy.

When did they tell you this? We have no idea what their plans are for other races in the galaxy.

...especially if they have the technology to revive a planets entire population.

When did they tell you they would do this? There is no indication they will be reviving any of the population when they're done slaughtering them.
If you're speaking of the incident in The Powers that Be, the prior held the threat of death by plague over the heads of the population until they bowed down and worshipped the Ori. I'm fascinated at how these actions can be interpreted as good or be acceptable in anyway.

Haven't they, they gave them a choice between life and death, they chose to fight, they didn't attack them, they offered them their message and they refused it, in the eyes of the Ori that was an act of aggression, if you're not with them, you're with the Ancients. And, they don't have to do anything for them, for the Ori to still be right!

Haven't they what? If we're not with them we're with the ancients? That makes no sense. That's like saying since a man is born German he must owe his allegience to the Nazis. I'd dare say most humans don't even know the Ancients existed so why should they be killed for being on their side?

No it doesn't, if all of their good deeds are self-serving ones. In any case, I'd have to choose the Ori, because I get the impression that they wouldn't let someone they ascended, just go and destroy all life in their galaxy, I don't care how evil they look at the moment.

Find me a single altruistic act that doesn't benefit the doer. It doesn't matter whether a good deed is self serving or not as long as its good. That's like saying a nurse isn't a good person because she gets paid to take care of her patients.

Let me get this straight, the Ori may be good because they won't let someone destroy their store of human cocaine? We are useful to them as batteries, heroine, whatever analogy you want to use. If we aren't worshipping them for their gain they kill us, Please reference all incidences under which humans have been killed by priors or Ori followers. And before you point out that we can't trust Orlin saying they sap our energy, please come up with an alternate reason why it's so (life & death) important that we worship them.

Those Ancients that wiped out an entire race of people, Orlin, Valona? Or, the one that killed the Jaffa, Oma, Kheb? Or Merlin's black knight?

Which is it? It's not ok for them to stand around and let people be killed for one of their mistakes or is it? The valonans were going to conquer and kill another race because of Orlin's mistake. The Jaffa would gladly have killed SG1 and if they got their hands on him, Shifu.

If you think the ends justify the means then Merlin's black knight did the right thing. It prevented a dangerous weapon and knowledge from being taken by someone who may use it for evil.

I'm not saying the Ancients are evil, just that they aren't completely trustworthy, and that everything they say shouldn't be believed, simply because they said it!!

We aren't trustworthy either. We've killed Jaffa, hidden our intentions, insisted on having things our way, used people..... I guess we should let the Ori kill us. they're right. We are evil.

Let's see the logic you've laid out.

The ancients have not tried to kill us. That's a fact. We would know if they did.

The Ori are trying to kill us. That's a fact. We a frantic because of it.

The Ori say, the Ancients are evil liars who've led us down the path of evil despite the fact that we didn't even know they existed until recently. And to reinforce their point as the truth they unleash a plague on us and threaten us with death and war.

The Ancients say the Ori are evil liars. One of them tries to help us cure the same plague the Ori have unleashed.

Let's say for a moment the ancients are lying. The Ori aren't evil. They are ascending you. Explain the shocked look on the Priors face in The fourth Horseman Pt II when it's explained the Ori aren't ascending anyone. If they are, he should know right? He has the knowledge of the universe right? We have seen at least two incidences of how people ascend on death. They take their bodies with them. The prior shouldn't have had a moment of doubt if he'd seen it.

Secondly, the Ori offer the knowledge of the Universe; they say they do anyway. If they do then the priors should know this: they can ascend on their own through meditation and whatever other means the path entails. Why then are the people worshipping the Ori instead of focusing on their path? Because the Ori destroyed all the evidence the ancients left behind. They don't even know they can.

Does that sound like the deeds of someone trustworthy?

What's wrong with dying, if I have to die, or sacrifice myself doing what I believe to be right, that is something I don't mind. Rationality separates us from mindless, that only follow instinct.

So let me see if I get this right. You can die for believing in the Ori but I shouldn't die fighting them although I believe that's right because they're offering me the knowledge of the universe which I won't get until I die so no one will know if I've been rewarded or not. Convenient.

Will they? For all we know, not all of the Ori were able to ascend, just like the Ancients, maybe they only give such gifts to those they feel are worthy. Tomin, should they cure every physical ailment now, they most likely do more for the humans they control, than the Ancients will ever do. Who are his parents, for all we know that Doci was Tomin's father.

So, what you're basically telling me is that the Ori aren't offering what they say they are.
If they offer the knowledge of the universe to the millions of people who've died and according to them joined them among the ranks of the ascended, and they have no problem interfering then there should be one ascended being for every village right? They could cure everyone's ailments or give them the knowledge to do it themselves.

They could make everyone a prior. But they don't. why? because they don't deem them worthy? Then how do we know which ones ascended or not. Perhaps they haven't deemed anyone worthy. Incidentally, that would still make them liars.

This isn't about good or evil, at least not as I see it. It is about right and wrong, good can be tainted, evil can be diluted, but what is right, just like what is wrong, never changes!

That's a fallacy. Right and wrong change all the time and are constantly in flux. Once upon a time human sacrifice was right. Cannibalism was right. Rape wasn't against the law. Wife beating was right. Some place these things still are ok. If it's wrong in some places, right in others, how is it that it never changes?

I guess I'm just unwilling to trust those I barely know, because they offered a hand, more for their benefit, than for mine.

We may barely know the ancients but we know them a lot better than the Ori and if you want be quite honest, we know more about them than we do about the Nox. And since we've never done anything for other people that doesn't benefit us I don't see how that's a basis for lack of trust. We are completely untrustworthy.