A reason why the Ancients might be the bad guys after all

[Kanten]

I myself really like the whole "who is the true evil" conflict going on between the Alterans and Ori, which is the primary reason I really, really, really hated Orlin's "never ascended anyone" claim in Fourth Horseman, which may very well have derailed a potentially interesting story arc before it even began.

The claim present with the path to enlightment idea with the Ori followers really, really could put a serious moral conflict at hand in fighting back against them. But if they really have never ascended any of their followers, it just really kills the potential there.

A couple more things for the Ancient scorecard:

They sat around willing to let Anubis, for all intents and purposes their creation, wipe out us and everybody in the Milky Way galaxy, basically for the sole purpose of dealing a punishment out to Oma, one of the very few among them who was willing to help us out.

They're basically doing nearly the same thing now sitting around letting the Ori kick our asses. If the Ori are really as bad as the Ancients claim they are to be, and with their apparent goal to wipe them out, I find it a little hard to believe they would let it go in the name of their ever-popular "free will" law.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it can also be nearly as, if not more evil than direct action.

In the back of my mind, I sorta think we're siding with the "devil you know" idea that we've seen a lot in the past. I have an odd feeling the Ancients won't seem nearly as friendly if SG-1 does find the Sangraal.

[sppeters]

Well very compelling, In fact I would agree... to a point.

Personally it seems both sides are good/evil, after all in the spoiler for season 10 episode 1 it does say that:

1) Adria "KNOWS and BELIEVES all that the Ori do about ascension."
- so the ori probubly then do see the ancients as evil.

2) While we have been told that the ancients are passive, we also know that the ancients frown uppon interferance, and even try to provent it.
- the may have tried to destory the Ori for interfearing with our plain of existance.

3) Now I am not saying that they ascend their followers.
-In fact they probubly don't and so the Ori then DO lie to their followers.

4) We know that most races don't actually know about the ancients, as most planets are primative from gou'ald occupation for thousands of years.
- So how can the ancients drain power from those who don't even know about them?

So Basically:
The Ori DO drain power from their followers, and they create/advance Priors to spread their "good word". The Ori also use the Priors and punishment (being burned allive) to instill fear so that all would believe in them. However it is because of this that the ancients probubly tried to stop/destory them originally. Which caused retaliation, and brings us to the current crusade.

[Platschu]

I have two teories about the Ancients.

1. Janus travelled to the future and he saw the that the non-ascended races made fantastic peaceful world. So he travelled back in time and he told everthing to the Alterrans. The Ancients hasn't made anything in the history and only watched the new races, because they are knowing, that we will be able to find our destiny.

2. If an Ancient ascend than all of her / his alternate version will ascend at the same time, so as a pure energy, they can see all universe.

* * *

Two more question:

1.If the Ori is the fire, the Alterrans are the light, than Anubis was a third type of ascension (black clous)? Or the Goa'uld can be so ascend?

2. Some Ancient technology (for example 5x20 Sentinel and 8x17 Reckoning II) is very similar to the Wraith, because they take lifeenergy. Why?

[thenimf]

Ad hominem.

And bad form, I might add.

Right, so you come into a thread and arrogantly proclaim a victor without contributing any useful discussion and then go off and tag me for having bad form? Wake up *****.

[MarshAngel]

This is your failing, just because the Ori are willing to kill, doesn't make them wrong by any means,

Any situation which allows for the Ori to kill us on a massive scale to further some glorious end is simply a matter of the ends justifying the means; a heading under which you can excuse all manner of evils whether it be rape torture or genocide. Convenient for your cause but no less evil. For one thing, if killing us justifies some greater purpose, why not just wipe out the whole galaxy efficiently? Why bother offering conversion, turning people into zombies, engineering bugs, and burning your own priors? It would make that much more sense to skip the speech and go about the business of extermination.

Chaya saved that one Atlantis team, only because she could,......

Wrong, Daniel didn't ascend the second time.....

Agreed! But, speculation still exist, on whether he will, or won't be able to return to his state as an ascended being.....

You seem to be missing the entire point of my post. It doesn't matter if ALL ancients are good or not. It doesn't even matter if ALL Ori are evil. The Ori have never done anything that benefits us in the slightest; not a single one of them. In fact, since the very moment they found out about us they've been trying to kill us. No matter how self serving anything the ancients may have done is, at least one of them has done something for us. And those things are the basis on which we have to judge them. The only basis.

The entire point of what I just said is one good deed by one ancient outweighs no good deeds by the Ori. If that was the only evidence by which I was forced to choose in whom to trust, I would have to go with the one good deed.

No matter what the truth turns out to be in the end, as it stands, the Ori are still the bad guys and the Ancients are still, given the evidence at hand, the ones most likely to help, or if you like, most likely not to kill us all. Not a single one of the ancients we've come across, ascended or not, has shown any inclination towards harming us or our entire galaxy.

Jumping to the conclusion that the Ancients are evil is like meeting five random Americans who, despite the questionable decisions of their leaders, are nice to you personally and try to help you out every now and then when they can without risking their lives, jobs, and everything they believe. Then you meet one dictator who represents an entire nation who immediately tries to shoot at you and then going hmm... maybe he had a good reason for shooting at me and killing my friends.

Unless later is too late! So did Merlin, is his creation of Arthur. What was the four race alliance formed to do, to protect against hostile races, the Ori deem us hostile because of the Ancients. Yes, the Ori have killed many, and will continue to do so unless stopped, but there are other humans in other galaxies, you reap what you sow.

There is absolutely no benefit to jumping to alternate explanations while ignoring the most obvious. When someone tries to kill you, you shoot back. You don't rationalize their decisions and try to find a reason why it might be OK that they're trying to kill you. If you're right you're dead, if you're wrong, you're still dead and it won't matter if you died by the hands of the "good" guys becuase you won't be around to make the judgement call.

We have no idea why the alliance was formed. It was never said that it was formed to protect against hostile races. In fact the closes thing to explanation came from Earnest's notebook:

"'I believe this room is some sort of meeting place, where four alien
races denoted by the symbols, and distinctive writing on the walls would gather, possible to share knowledge, or discuss relations, like a United Nations of the Stars. Catherine agrees.'"

Worship and die, sounds about right, but isn't it better to have the knowledge of the universe for a short amount of time, as a Prior, than dying ignorantly by the billions. Unless later is far too late!

Will all humans be made priors? Will the Ori give ALL humans the knowledge of the universe? If this is the case, why did Tomin, a man born in the presence of all that great knowledge spend so much of his life lame when the the "knowledge of the universe" could have served to save him all that? He was born into Origin, his parents were born into Origin... where is their universal knowledge?

Seriously, Worship or die and worship and die is acceptable to you? Seriously? Quite frankly, that scares me. I would never want to have those choices as my only option. I can die now, or waste my life as nothing more than a battery and die later. Yeah, I can see how that might make them the good guys.

Furthermore, what would we be too late for? What do you suppose the evil plan of the Ancients is? It's hard to be late for a plan we can't even be sure exists, have no evidence for.

[thenimf]

MarshAngel
Your score cards are contradictory... either list the bad things that the Alterrans and O'ri have done, or list the good thing. You can't do one and the other. Yes, it's the premise of this thread, but it gives no supporting basis to your point.

Also, if we're going to believe stuff that works in our benefit... wouldn't the truth about who is the real bad guy be a good start? It'd be pretty crap to wipe out the O'ri only to find that they were our only hope.

And heehee, grouping George W. with Arabic enslavers and Hitler.


spg_1983 and JUNIOR
My point on the Holy Grail is that it's bad for disrupting their normal way of doing this in the first place. It could be the equivalent of disrupting someone's spinal column. Sure, they're not dead... and they can go along with their daily lives... but they'll never be the same. And that can be used for as much evil as it is good.


Kanten
Yeah, Star Trek had a good thing going with making the Federation evil but they never really got into it... it'd be awesome for Stargate to go in this direction with the Alterrans because it'd completely change everything and yeah...


sppeters
Because the idea that they drain power from their followers is an idea given to us by Orlin we can't necessarily believe it's true. In fact, the way this "power" is drained from them isn't even clearly explained at any point. Maybe it's just a metaphor for the way the O'ri use their followers to invade and occupy territories while complying with the tyrranical Alterran rules that all ascended beings must follow?



The truth is, I don't really believe that the Alterrans are the enemy, however I do believe that enough evidence has come up on this show to suggest a very interesting direction that TPTB could go in. Sure, there are contradictory points for this argument, but so there are in the other direction. The writers are the real guys in charge of this plot, not canon evidence or our hypothesis on who would most likely do or say what at some point. TPTB have gone in directions in the show that have totally contradicted or messed up the show's canon, and the movies' for that matter - just look at Hathor.

So yeah, some good points on both sides... but please keep in mind that this thread is a collection of musing points in the show that could set-up the Alterrans to be evil, it in no way means that I'm proclaiming the Alterrans to be this way... just read the title of this thread "MIGHT be the bad guys". I never said that are, just that what I had to say is a distinct possibility... and in my opinion it is a damn interesting one that's far more entertaining than the current "ZOMG! Let's go look for Merlin's bling! How original is this plot, we're looking for another Ancient weapon to defeat an incredible enemy against immeasurable odds!!"

[spg_1983]

spg_1983 and JUNIOR
My point on the Holy Grail is that it's bad for disrupting their normal way of doing this in the first place. It could be the equivalent of disrupting someone's spinal column. Sure, they're not dead... and they can go along with their daily lives... but they'll never be the same. And that can be used for as much evil as it is good.

We don't know that at all. All we know is that it produces an effect that causes interference on their plane of existence and neutralizes their ability to affect our plane. We have no evidence that it actually causes them harm, and Daniel said that it doesn't actually kill them. So the implication seems to be that it works like a putting a prisoner in a jail cell. You don't kill them but neutralize their ability to cause harm.

[creed462]

Look what Orlin did he didn't just give up his asended life, he gave up his Idenity to save us.

[thenimf]

We don't know that at all. All we know is that it produces an effect that causes interference on their plane of existence and neutralizes their ability to affect our plane. We have no evidence that it actually causes them harm, and Daniel said that it doesn't actually kill them. So the implication seems to be that it works like a putting a prisoner in a jail cell. You don't kill them but neutralize their ability to cause harm.

Yeah dude, I get that. What I'm saying is that that's not a very nice thing to do to someone in regardless of what it does to them. For example, the O'ri view themselves to be celestial (get it?) parents of their followers... if this is the case then neutralizing their ability to interract with our plane is like child support taking away someone's kids. If it stops you from doing what you want to do then it can be misused, regardless of the level on which the damage is done. Sure the O'ri may not be harmed at all... but they will be sad, and making people sad is not nice -> evil.

[spg_1983]

Yeah dude, I get that. What I'm saying is that that's not a very nice thing to do to someone in regardless of what it does to them. For example, the O'ri view themselves to be celestial (get it?) parents of their followers... if this is the case then neutralizing their ability to interract with our plane is like child support taking away someone's kids. If it stops you from doing what you want to do then it can be misused, regardless of the level on which the damage is done. Sure the O'ri may not be harmed at all... but they will be sad, and making people sad is not nice -> evil.

What are you talking about? The Ori advocate violence and killing, and leech energy off of their followers. It is not like taking good parents away from their children, it is like taking parents that are murderers and beat their children for fun away from the kids. It is like putting a murder in jail. Unless you are saying that we shouldnt do that and people should be allowed to do what they want? Because that really seems to be what you are saying.

[thenimf]

What are you talking about? The Ori advocate violence and killing, and leech energy off of their followers. It is not like taking good parents away from their children, it is like taking parents that are murderers and beat their children for fun away from the kids. It is like putting a murder in jail. Unless you are saying that we shouldnt do that and people should be allowed to do what they want? Because that really seems to be what you are saying.

Umm.. calm down? I'm not saying that it is like putting good parents in jail at all. You're completely missing my point. What I'm saying is that from a unbiased ethical view we have no right to tell them what they can and can't do. Forcing them into any position wherein they can no longer go about their normal activity is wrong. Even if it means our death. (hmm... this is probably somewhat how the Ascendants think actually).

[MarshAngel]

A couple more things for the Ancient scorecard:

They sat around willing to let Anubis, for all intents and purposes their creation, wipe out us and everybody in the Milky Way galaxy, basically for the sole purpose of dealing a punishment out to Oma, one of the very few among them who was willing to help us out.

First the scorecard I wrote deals only with situations in which the SG team had direct experience with an individual ancient or their work. Anything else done by the ancients as whole I chose not to mention because we did not deal with those situations and any judgement we make is iffy at best and complicated just like judging the actions of an entire nation as opposed to the actions of one or two individuals. And every decision has its pros and cons. Oma screwed up. Had she just followed the rules....

In regards to Anubis, for the ancients to "permit" something it implies that they have rule and that they should have it over lower planes of existence. They don't and they shouldn't. They are not our gods, our judges, or for that matter, our best buds.

Anubis, just like all evil in the galaxy, is of the galaxy. They didn't create his evil, they didn't permit it to exist anymore than they permit our evils to exist. This is why what Oma does is questionable. The moment she ascended him she made herself partially responsible for what he did. It was an understandable mistake any indivual could have made but a mess all the same. What the ancients then did was try to fix it, like humans, they screwed up proving they aren't perfect. He then partially descended and within the confines of the rules they set forth, he did what he would have done had he not been ascended in the first place, make a mess. The moment he wasn't in their sphere he wasn't their job. It was alway's Omas. That's the way I see it anyhow.

They're basically doing nearly the same thing now sitting around letting the Ori kick our asses. If the Ori are really as bad as the Ancients claim they are to be, and with their apparent goal to wipe them out, I find it a little hard to believe they would let it go in the name of their ever-popular "free will" law.

The ancients aren't so powerful as to "let" things happen in a universe they don't own or govern. The Ancients should fight the Ori on their plane of existence if they disagree with them, not ours. What the Ori's followers do is their own free will and as it happens on our plane, it's our problem. It sucks for us but they gave up their free will, ironically, somewhat willingly. On our plane of existence it comes down to human follower vs human non follower. What they should do is stop the Ori from interfering..... that would be fair according to their rules. But since that probably won't help us win this ridiculous situation however... deux es machina it is.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it can also be nearly as, if not more evil than direct action.

Only if it's your responsibility in the first place. I suspect most ancients aren't watching over our lives. They shouldn't be. I think the way the ascended view their ascension is like moving away from your home to another distant country. The new occupants of your home should not be under your watch, influence, or interference no matter what ills befall them. In fact, none of them being involved at all, as per their rules, would have prevented more than a few problems.

In the back of my mind, I sorta think we're siding with the "devil you know"

In a way, yeah. Unless and until the Ancients prove themselves otherwise, they are the ones we should logically side with. If and when they try to kill us however.... well if they do, we're dead. And this is why I have a problem with the concept that they're the bad guys. If they wanted to harm us or use us, nothing is standing in their way. The Ori certainly wouldn't interfere; interference is their doctrine.

[spg_1983]

Umm.. calm down? I'm not saying that it is like putting good parents in jail at all. You're completely missing my point. What I'm saying is that from a unbiased ethical view we have no right to tell them what they can and can't do. Forcing them into any position wherein they can no longer go about their normal activity is wrong. Even if it means our death. (hmm... this is probably somewhat how the Ascendants think actually).

So basically you are saying everyon should be allowed to run amok, killing indistriminatley, doing whatever suits their fancy, because to do other wise would be unethical? You are honestly saying it would be unethical to stop others from causing harm and death to us or others?

[thenimf]

So basically you are saying everyon should be allowed to run amok, killing indistriminatley, doing whatever suits their fancy, because to do other wise would be unethical? You are honestly saying it would be unethical to stop others from causing harm and death to us or others?

Essentially, yes. But not to the extreme that you're giving. If the weapon trapped the O'ri in their own galaxy then that would be fine. Basically your assumption on how the weapon works rules out the O'ri from ever interracting with humans again. This is bad because they have followers who seem to live perfectly happy and rewarding lives in their own galaxy.

Your argument is based on the fact that the O'ri kill people, yet it's not their own followers that they kill. In fact, you don't seem to care about their followers at all, just your own ass (assuming that you're a Milky Way resident human). Sure it's the most likely position you would take for your survival, but it totally misses the big picture. If you were one of their followers and felt you hated the slave life and wanted to take down the O'ri... then you'd be in a position to fight them because they are a threat to you... however that's not the case here.

The most effective way to fight the O'ri would be to overpower them in a way that prevents their invasion altogether. It'd be cool if the Holy Grail acted as a kind of O'ri repellant. I'd definitely rather see that than something that'd trap/maim/poison/torture/whatever harm them.

[Spell_Daemon]

In the Fourth Horseman Pt 2 the Prior that got disabled began preaching to Orlin when Orlin begun to speak. Naturally we all listened to Orlin and tuned out to what the Prior was saying... but he did say some very important stuff.

Now, I'm at work so I can't really look up his exact words... But he said that the O'ri were born from the rift (no doubt the moment the Alterrans split off) and that the Alterrans travelled the universe and spread death and destruction wherever they went, hence evil. What if the O'ri are destroying the Ancients in as a precautionary measure to protect themselves? Let's look at what the Ancients brought the Universe.


1. The Wraith - Space vamps with a bad attitude. Death and destruction.

2. The "groundhog day" device - A device that loops time. Pure chaos here, ignoring of course the theory that it was made to come up with a cure for the plague

3. The Dakara weapon - WMD of the great scale we've seen so far

4. The Holy Grail - Anti-ascendant WMD, ignoring of course that it was made by a rogue Ancient

5. The Asurans - a freaky spin off of a virus

6. The gate network - Ultimately allowing the Goa'uld to take control of the entire galaxy. I doubt their homeworld would've given them this capacity alone.

7. The gate warping device Anubis used


Now, my theory is that the Ancients like fighting... and so they go around picking fights and creating enemies. It's possible even that the Wraith and O'ri were the only enemies capable of overpowering them. *shrugs*

Either that or the Ancients just had so many misguided scientific ventures that went wrong. After all, one would have quite a few mistakes after a few million years of advancement. The O'ri seem like the kind of race that would've ascended through meditation and spiritual means.

1 - not their falt. They did not wish them to be made, they were an acidental biproduct of humans and bugs that the Ancients later faught.

2 - Hardly a divise that causes chaos. A simple time looping machine that WAS meant to give the people time to cure the plague.

3 - The device is not evil (and the ancients knew how to use it correctly) they also used it to create humans (the second evolution - us) after the plague.

4 - Haven't seen the epsiode yet, so I don't really understand it, but I would guess that it was created to stop people, that are like the Ori, to ascend.

5 - Haven't seen them yet, but I would guess that was an acident or there is an overwehlming reason why that was a mistake or needed to be done.

6 - Now that is the least evil, just because a race latter turned this idea to evil purposes does not mean it is an evil idea. I was created to allow instantaneous tavel (that is neither good nor evil) and allow people to live on other planets and therefore expand the places people can live.

7 - What device is that.

However, the Ori can not be totally evil, because they did ascended. They just have a different view point, and most of ideas that boarder on evil (in the grey area) and are not as good hearted about life, as the Ancients are. However, they may have been corrupted by the power of ascention and become as evil as they are.