S10: Critique & Contemplation

[KatG]

He was selected because he led the F302 squadron against Anubis's fleet at Antarctica. I'd say that qualifies for both leadership and security clearance.

EDIT: I can see I'm outnumbered and headed for a firestorm of complaints.

I see no complaints. I see counter arguments and discussion, but no complaints nor any attacks.

And yes, he led the squadron against Anubis in Antartica. There is however a huge difference between leading an air squad and leading a ground squad. In the air, seat of your pants, split second decision making is often necessary due to the fast pace of the fighting, and there seems to be a little more room for "hot dogging" it.. On the ground however, more finesse is generally needed. It's just a different leadership style and gate travel and dealing with aliens is a whole other ballgame altogether.

[Ashizuri]

But <<lip wibbles>> Vala is "sexy" and "fun" and dressing her in a realistic way for what may become a combat situation would not accentuate that!



/sarcasm just in case it wasn't obvious enough

suse

CB is sexy...Vala, sot so much. But hey, to each their own. I thought Sam was sexy, even in her high-waisted, ugly pants.

They should have done what VSS suggested and approached the problem head on, have Sam agree to work on SG-1, for the time being because the threat was apparently and unbelievably so bad that they only had to find a magical box would need her expertise and on the condition that she got command of SG-1 or her own team once the Ori threat was neutralized, instead of making it seem like she took a demotion.

He was selected because he led the F302 squadron against Anubis's fleet at Antarctica. I'd say that qualifies for both leadership and security clearance.

EDIT: I can see I'm outnumbered and headed for a firestorm of complaints.

No one is complaining, just disagreeing.

The security clearance obviously, if he was flying an F-302 he must have had some knowledge of the Stargate program. But previously established canon shows us that you need training and gate experience before being assigned to a team, especially before being assigned to SG-1. So, he has no offworld experience, none of the training that every other person in the SGC has had...and yet they want us to believe that he is qualified to command.

We didn't buy it. Mitchell was qualified to be assigned to the SGC and, after following proper protocols, assigned to an SG team. He was not qualified to lead the flagship team.

Makepeace was the commanding officer of SG-3 for a few years and had saved SG-1's bacon on numerous occasions and Teal'c and Daniel were unwilling to accept his leadership over Sam's, why, years after that, are we supposed to believe their opinion on this matter would have changed?

[Vladius]

Glad that nobody is complaining.

How else is he supposed to get experience, other than going off world? Someone probably observed his qualities, and found them to be satisfactory for SG-1, who apparently hadn't gone on very many important missions between Season 8 and the Ori debacle.
The ability to fly a plane is very useful, considering they're in the Air Force. Why were Jack and Teal'c qualified to test the prototype hybrid fighter into space?

[KatG]

How else is he supposed to get experience, other than going off world?

He would eventually have to go offworld, but first he would need to go through the training program that all new recruits to Stargate Command go through, then be assigned to a team, not as the leader but as a new recruit, to learn from the more experienced members of the team.

I actually have no problem with an exception being made for Mitchell to join SG-1, as the fourth member, given that he apparently saved their lives, but he should never have been given command. If Sam was not available, then command should have been given to one of the leaders of another SG team, and Mitchell should have been assigned as a team member under the command of that leader.

[jasminaGo]

Glad that nobody is complaining.

How else is he supposed to get experience, other than going off world? Someone probably observed his qualities, and found them to be satisfactory for SG-1, who apparently hadn't gone on very many important missions between Season 8 and the Ori debacle.
The ability to fly a plane is very useful, considering they're in the Air Force. Why were Jack and Teal'c qualified to test the prototype hybrid fighter into space?

Mitchell hasn't been through the gate before S9. The first time he saw the gate was when he took command of SG1. So there was no experience (reading reports does not count), and no observations.

Not everyone on the AF are pilots, and not all pilots are in the AF. And I have to ask again, how will his ability to fly a plane help him off-world in a tricky situation, on the ground? Teal'c and Jack are pilots, but they also have years of ground ops experience.

[Petra]

Glad that nobody is complaining.

How else is he supposed to get experience, other than going off world? Someone probably observed his qualities, and found them to be satisfactory for SG-1, who apparently hadn't gone on very many important missions between Season 8 and the Ori debacle.
The ability to fly a plane is very useful, considering they're in the Air Force. Why were Jack and Teal'c qualified to test the prototype hybrid fighter into space?

Kat already answered your first question, so I won't repeat her.

For the record, there was no SG-1. They disbanned after season 8 ended.

Nobody is denying that flying is useful in the Air Force. As to your question: the first hybrid, X-301 (?) was a modified Death Glider, and Teal'c was established early on as an excellent Death Glider pilot. Jack by this point had also flown Death Glider, in second seat. Please notice continuity: in Tangent Jack was just a co-pilot because earlier he had only second seat. Jack and Teal'c were simply most qualified to pilot the hybrids, because of their off-world experience. But it doesn't work the other way around.

PS> You still didn't give any examples of excellent leadership capabilities of Cam, and lack of them in Sam and Teal'c's case.

[Vladius]

The way it looks to me is that he and Sam have a kind of "co-ownership" of the team, but he's technically called in to be the leader. It's not that I don't think the others can command, just that they can't do it as well.

Remember that Jack also got the team into trouble on multiple occasions, and they have all died in some form or another at least once. SG-1 has a high casualty rate for having the same four people for the most of 8 years...

EDIT: It's also shown that Stargate Command is getting large budget cuts during the 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons, so maybe they can't afford a training program and prefer to train their staff through experience.

[KatG]

The way it looks to me is that he and Sam have a kind of "co-ownership" of the team, but he's technically called in to be the leader. It's not that I don't think the others can command, just that they can't do it as well.

Remember that Jack also got the team into trouble on multiple occasions, and they have all died in some form or another at least once. SG-1 has a high casualty rate for having the same four people for the most of 8 years...

EDIT: It's also shown that Stargate Command is getting large budget cuts during the 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons, so maybe they can't afford a training program and prefer to train their staff through experience.

Co-ownership or co-command is just not done in the military. There's always a "leader" or someone in command. Putting Sam on SG-1, under an inexperienced commander, with no explanation as to why she would be willing to accept such a position was basically a slap in the face to canon and to the character of Sam. And the fact that Daniel and Teal'c, who strongly objected to the more experienced Makepeace assuming command over Sam in S3, would accept this with no complaint doesn't hold true with canon either.

And yes, Jack has led his team into dangerous situations before, but not without weighing all the options and not without using the strengths of each team member to the best advantage. And he never, that I can remember, went off half-cocked to be the hero, leaving the rest of the team on their own or to put themselves in danger to save him.

As to "budget cuts" and "training programs", let's say that they did decide to train through experience, that still wouldn't allow for a new recruit with no experience to head the flagship team. At the very least, he would have been put on a team as a "probie" member to learn from the more experienced team members.

[Alan]

The way it looks to me is that he and Sam have a kind of "co-ownership" of the team, but he's technically called in to be the leader. It's not that I don't think the others can command, just that they can't do it as well.

Remember that Jack also got the team into trouble on multiple occasions, and they have all died in some form or another at least once. SG-1 has a high casualty rate for having the same four people for the most of 8 years...

EDIT: It's also shown that Stargate Command is getting large budget cuts during the 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons, so maybe they can't afford a training program and prefer to train their staff through experience.

In the Season 9 première episode Avalon, Mitchell was given personnel files to find people to form a new SG-1. If I knew I was going to be interviewed by someone who was undergoing on-the-job training and was an untested team leader to join a new SG-1...I'd be saying "Thanks, but no thanks". It's a bit hypocritical for someone to be interviewing for new teammates when he should be getting interviewed to see if he himself is capable of leading the flagship team of the SGC on missions to alien worlds.

Okay, so the guy fired some rockets to shoot down a Death Glider and he crashed and survived...so did a lot of pilots in that battle...so what the heck what makes Mitchell so special that he deserved to be given the keys to SG-1?! The whole situation is totally nuts!

[HPMom]

The way it looks to me is that he and Sam have a kind of "co-ownership" of the team, but he's technically called in to be the leader. It's not that I don't think the others can command, just that they can't do it as well.

Remember that Jack also got the team into trouble on multiple occasions, and they have all died in some form or another at least once. SG-1 has a high casualty rate for having the same four people for the most of 8 years...

EDIT: It's also shown that Stargate Command is getting large budget cuts during the 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons, so maybe they can't afford a training program and prefer to train their staff through experience.

IMO that would be a foolish place to cut the budget. However, if they did cut in the area of training, then they should get Cam some field experience going through the gate on missions before giving him command. And it's very bad management to not make clear who the leader is and just sort of have somebody be the leader, but not really (I'm talking to you General Landry). SG1 had many dangerous situations. It's not really fair to judge them by casualties, because they got assigned the most difficult and in many cases, hopeless assignments. You wouldn't judge the tunnel rats of the Vietnam War harshly because of casualties when they had one of the hardest jobs going.

[Ashizuri]

The way it looks to me is that he and Sam have a kind of "co-ownership" of the team, but he's technically called in to be the leader. It's not that I don't think the others can command, just that they can't do it as well.

Remember that Jack also got the team into trouble on multiple occasions, and they have all died in some form or another at least once. SG-1 has a high casualty rate for having the same four people for the most of 8 years...

EDIT: It's also shown that Stargate Command is getting large budget cuts during the 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons, so maybe they can't afford a training program and prefer to train their staff through experience.

And the rest of us think that Sam and Teal'c can command just as well, if not better than Mitchell, though I can't imagine Teal'c (an alien) or Daniel (a civilian) ever being put in charge of earth's premier first contact team. Daniel heading up a an archaeological team/expedition yes, Teal'c leading a recon/SAR team, yes. Leading SG-1, not so much, at least IMO.

Every single member of SG-1 has gotten the team into trouble at some point in time, no one is denying that, but I'm not sure how that relates to whether Mitchell was qualified to lead.

If I can emotionally detach myself from the show/characters I can understand and accept why things happened the way they did. AT wasn't available and they needed some one to command in the field and BB was their new action man so it had to be him. Perhaps a better back story would have made his insertion easier to accept, retconning him into the SGC as a member of say, SG-3, with years of experience under his belt instead of giving some one inexperienced in gate travel and commanding a field unit with some of the SGC's hardest to manage members.

There is also the issue of Sam to consider. There were a million ways to have her either continue to lead SG-1 while missing the first few episodes, particularly since the first few episodes were mainly Daniel/Vala/Ori focused. There were also a million and one ways that they could have believably brought her back to help during the Ori threat without her having command of the team.

It was sloppy writing/story planning to not address the issues of Sam's command and apparent demotion and Mitchell's subsequent and unbelievable posting. Technically, Sam and Mitchell never even should have been on the same team, but as with Mitchell's placement, Vala's wardrobe, and Landry going on vacation with SG-1, proper military protocal was thrown out the window. Along with common sense. And the shows previously established canon.

[HPMom]

If I can emotionally detach myself from the show/characters I can understand and accept why things happened the way they did. AT wasn't available and they needed some one to command in the field and BB was their new action man so it had to be him. Perhaps a better back story would have made his insertion easier to accept, retconning him into the SGC as a member of say, SG-3, with years of experience under his belt instead of giving some one inexperienced in gate travel and commanding a field unit with some of the SGC's hardest to manage members.

This is so true. It's like the writers were trying to take a short cut to make us like and respect Cam (see, he saved SG1s butts during the battle with Anubis...like him). I would have much rather had him be an experienced SG team leader, it would have made so much more sense. Heck, they could have engineered a way that as another SG team leader he saved SG1s butts during the battle with Anubis, I'm baffled as to why they didn't.

[Vladius]

There have been plenty of times on the show when it appears as though someone doesn't deserve their rank - if not for all their issues with the authority, SG-1 deserves some kind of gigantic promotion-based compensation or honorary generalship.

Is anyone here an actual authority on the military, or is it all hearsay? Dare I say it, there would never be an "all girl team" like in Atlantis, either.

[Ashizuri]

There have been plenty of times on the show when it appears as though someone doesn't deserve their rank - if not for all their issues with the authority, SG-1 deserves some kind of gigantic promotion-based compensation or honorary generalship.

Is anyone here an actual authority on the military, or is it all hearsay? Dare I say it, there would never be an "all girl team" like in Atlantis, either.

I kind of feel like you're not listening to us.

No one is saying that Mitchell doesn't deserve his rank, only that based on the shows previous canon, Mitchell should never have been given command.

We're not saying we hate him (though some do), we're simply of the opinion that the show runners did a very poor job of bringing him into a show and adding him in cohesivley with established characters, blending him in with them instead of overpowering them.

As for being a military rules and regs, I do have some knowledge (my brother was in the army for 8 years and I dated a man in the air force for around 2) though i would never consider myself an "authority" on the subject. That being said, it's not to difficult to obtain copies of military Rules and Regulations or the UCMJ. Example: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/. There ya go, air force rules and regulations.

[EvenstarSRV]

The way it looks to me is that he and Sam have a kind of "co-ownership" of the team, but he's technically called in to be the leader. It's not that I don't think the others can command, just that they can't do it as well.

I agree with what Kat and others have said, that having co-leaders on an elite team like SG-1 is rather silly and IMO, unnecessarily muddles the chain of command. I also think that Sam was shown as a quite capable leader in episodes like Nightwalkers, Icon, and Stronghold.

EDIT: It's also shown that Stargate Command is getting large budget cuts during the 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons, so maybe they can't afford a training program and prefer to train their staff through experience.

With the budget cuts, I can definitely see the SGC perhaps shortening the training program shown in Proving Ground and assigning new SGC members sooner to field units. But IMHO, a trainee should have sufficient experience simply serving on a field unit before they are given command of one.

To give a RL example, I'm currently working in an EMS system that is under such heavy budget cuts we're running low on essentials like oxygen tanks and IVs. But even now a paramedic new to the system, no matter how many hours they have logged as a medic elsewhere, cannot be the leader in a medical call until they've been trained through hands-on experience for a number of hours under the direct supervision of a field training officer. You simply do not stick a brand-new medic into the back of the truck and let them figure things out as they go.