S10: Critique & Contemplation

[hedwig]

Wow, I missed quite the conversation today. I don't have enough green for all of you guys, but consider this some virtual green.

Just a comment on Sam whumping, I made up whumping lists for the original 4 SG-1 characters last year (yes I do sometimes need to get a life ), and the Sam character has actually been shown getting injured more than any other in Stargate.



I personally can't say whether the writers are sexist or not as I don't know any of them. But I do think the way they and the other producers/execs handled season 9 and 10 was quite mediocre.

I remember that list. I just couldn't remember when or where I read it.

[suse]

There were plenty of Teal'c episodes in the earlier seasons. He is a male too, is he not? ( )

You didn't answer my question.

There were also no ways that you could have used brains to avoid those situations, other than just not signing up for the Stargate program in the first place.

Sure did. Pointed out Sam also got thrown against wall when there was no other way.

She also fought when there was no other way. Emancipation. Evolution Pt 2. Jolinar's Memories. The Devil You Know. FOOTHOLD. Upgrades. The Curse. 2010. The Light (both Sam and O'Neill against each other). 2001. Nightwalkers. Prometheus. New Order Pt 2 (torture). Lockdown. Prometheus Unbound (Vala, not Sam.). The Road Not Taken.

Needed to to use brawn instrad of brains. And did.

suse

[Melora]

I think it's a bit extreme to say it "destroyed the previous 8 years of canon" (11 if you count the movie being around for 3 years).

Preserving the narrative is important if you want ratings, which I think were declining during Season 8. It's also important for a cohesive story and for the development of more characters that you care about. Of course, you don't care about Cam so it obviously wasn't for you.

It was important to establish the Ori, Merlin, etc. really fast for the purposes of the story. There was a lot to do and not much time to do it. It would be difficult to have Sam away for five episodes and to keep it cohesive and interesting when she returned.
"Oh, hi guys. So what's this I hear about our new gigantic, galaxy wide unstoppable enemy? What? You say they're called Ori? Eh?"

According to the Nielsen ratings records that GW keeps, the ratings for Season 8 were the highest ratings the series had in its entire 10 year run. The ratings, in fact, grew considerably throughout the season and then started to plateau during Season 9. The ratings dropped considerably during Season 9 and continued to fall in Season 10. They never really recovered, with the exception of the 200th ep.



As to your argument about setting up the Ori and not having time to incorporate Sam into the storyline if she remained the leader, I would argue that they didn't do a good job of incorporating her anyway. The only things she did in Season 9 and for most of Season 10 were to spout technobabble, entertain old boyfriends, and provide reassurance and comfort to Cam.

So, I would have preferred that the writers focus on establishing the new characters, while doing justice to the old ones, instead of devoting so much time to creating this "grand" Ori story arc. There were much more interesting villains that had already been established that could have been brought in that wouldn't have needed a huge amount of story time to re-introduce. In fact, I've always thought the Lucian Alliance could have been a much more satisfying and realistic enemy (before they became the comic relief) and they wouldn't have required a whole new mythology to be created to introduce them into the storyline.

In fact, the major problem I have with Season 9 and 10 is not Cam or Vala or Daniel having a personality transplant. It is the Ori and their whole entire story arc. I found them unbelievably boring and the whole Merlin/Black Knight thing to be incredibly cheesy and over the top.

[Vladius]

Sure did. Pointed out Sam also got thrown against wall when there was no other way.

She also fought when there was no other way. Emancipation. Evolution Pt 2. Jolinar's Memories. The Devil You Know. FOOTHOLD. Upgrades. The Curse. 2010. The Light (both Sam and O'Neill against each other). 2001. Nightwalkers. Prometheus. New Order Pt 2 (torture). Lockdown. Prometheus Unbound (Vala, not Sam.). The Road Not Taken.

Needed to to use brawn instrad of brains. And did.

suse

I agree that Sam could have easily been leader, but she just wasn't. I don't think it's really any fault of the writers for doing it that way.

[Melora]

What if there's no missile to jerry rig and no sun to blow up?

What if there is no big, brawny Jaffa or Sodan to fight hand-to-hand? You assume that the team runs into enemy warriors on every mission and they always have to fight back with their fists. If I recall correctly, Jack O'Neill and Teal'c did most of their fighting with a P-90 and a staff weapon. And I remember Sam standing right there beside them, holding off the enemy with just as much skill and effectiveness as her teammates. I think I would still rather have Sam and her P-90 protecting me than Cam and his amazing ability to get the crap beat out of himself.

I'm not making "sweeping generalizations." I'm simply taking patterns of behavior that apply in most places that are backed up by biology, and explaining how that means anything in the face of "hollywood sexism." (Not that I don't think Hollywood is extremely sexist, just not in the ways you're talking about.)

It's a fact that women feel more pain, and react differently to situations than men do, sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. I'm not saying Sam isn't qualified or that she can't handle it, I'm just stating that you see patterns like that with men and women for good reasons.

Let me see. You are arguing that men are biologically more capable of withstanding pain than women. That sort of sounds like a generalization to me. There are some women who can fight just as well as most men. There are some men who would fall down unconscious with one punch. There are some women who can undergo torture and hold out longer than most men. And there are some men who will crack when they are just threatened with the possibility of torture.

But I'll tell you what... I'll believe that men biologically can endure and withstand more pain than women when a man pushes a ten-pound baby out of one of his orifices without the aid of drugs.

[Vladius]

According to the Nielsen ratings records that GW keeps, the ratings for Season 8 were the highest ratings the series had in its entire 10 year run. The ratings, in fact, grew considerably throughout the season and then started to plateau during Season 9. The ratings dropped considerably during Season 9 and continued to fall in Season 10. They never really recovered, with the exception of the 200th ep.



As to your argument about setting up the Ori and not having time to incorporate Sam into the storyline if she remained the leader, I would argue that they didn't do a good job of incorporating her anyway. The only things she did in Season 9 and for most of Season 10 were to spout technobabble, entertain old boyfriends, and provide reassurance and comfort to Cam.

So, I would have preferred that the writers focus on establishing the new characters, while doing justice to the old ones, instead of devoting so much time to creating this "grand" Ori story arc. There were much more interesting villains that had already been established that could have been brought in that wouldn't have needed a huge amount of story time to re-introduce. In fact, I've always thought the Lucian Alliance could have been a much more satisfying and realistic enemy (before they became the comic relief) and they wouldn't have required a whole new mythology to be created to introduce them into the storyline.

In fact, the major problem I have with Season 9 and 10 is not Cam or Vala or Daniel having a personality transplant. It is the Ori and their whole entire story arc. I found them unbelievably boring and the whole Merlin/Black Knight thing to be incredibly cheesy and over the top.

So I was wrong about the ratings. That's interesting...

I thought the Lucian Alliance would get really boring really quickly. They use all the technology that we've seen for the entire run of the show. There's only so many times you can look at a Ha'tak. The episode where Cam infiltrated them was about as interesting as it would get. Which do you take more seriously?
An epic, large scale invasion of our galaxy that works on multiple fundamental levels including religion and pathogenic disease, or a criminal organization that we should barely take seriously if we just leave them to their business?

The heroes are only as good as their villains. I'm pretty sure most people liked the Ori, judging from what I've seen.

[suse]

I think it's a bit extreme to say it "destroyed the previous 8 years of canon" (11 if you count the movie being around for 3 years).

Was 8years at the start of S9

Preserving the narrative is important if you want ratings, which I think were declining during Season 8. It's also important for a cohesive story and for the development of more characters that you care about. Of course, you don't care about Cam so it obviously wasn't for you.

Actually ratings were at their highest in S8. And took a nosedive during S9. For various reasons, but imo some of it was Mitchell. Odd. I found myself caring about these new characters *less*, and I was poised to like Mitchell! Wasn't so sure about Vala, though I was willing to forgive PU if they used her well. Oops.

It was important to establish the Ori, Merlin, etc. really fast for the purposes of the story. There was a lot to do and not much time to do it. It would be difficult to have Sam away for five episodes and to keep it cohesive and interesting when she returned.
"Oh, hi guys. So what's this I hear about our new gigantic, galaxy wide unstoppable enemy? What? You say they're called Ori? Eh?"

Perhaps she could have read the reports. It was a few weeks worth. Worked for Mitchell and he had years worth of reports to read.

suse

[suse]

I agree that Sam could have easily been leader, but she just wasn't. I don't think it's really any fault of the writers for doing it that way.

Then who is responsible? The catering staff? The make-up artists? I know! The costumers!

/sarcasm

suse

[Melora]

So I was wrong about the ratings. That's interesting...

I thought the Lucian Alliance would get really boring really quickly. They use all the technology that we've seen for the entire run of the show. There's only so many times you can look at a Ha'tak. The episode where Cam infiltrated them was about as interesting as it would get. Which do you take more seriously?
An epic, large scale invasion of our galaxy that works on multiple fundamental levels including religion and pathogenic disease, or a criminal organization that we should barely take seriously if we just leave them to their business?

The heroes are only as good as their villains. I'm pretty sure most people liked the Ori, judging from what I've seen.

I do think the Lucian Alliance wasn't used to its fullest potential. The writers decided to turn them into a joke when they could have been very interesting. If pirates, mobsters, and terrorists aren't interesting, then why are there so many movies and TV shows about them? If the writers had consistently presented them as a real and serious threat, they would have been a very worthy enemy for the team.

I thought the Ori were just a more boring and less flamboyant version of the Goa'uld - beings with more knowledge and technology who passed themselves off as gods to gain power. Except the Ori were an anonymous, faceless enemy which made them even more boring IMO.

I think it would have been far more interesting and original to examine the aftermath of the war that the team had been fighting for eight years. What happens when you destroy an enemy that has been dominating the galaxy for centuries? How does the SGC cope with the entire galaxy looking to them for guidance b/c they are the ones who liberated the galaxy? How do they deal with all of the competing interests in the galaxy, some of which do not like or appreciate them? It could have been such a rich, complex direction to take the show. They could have examined the Jaffa nation in more detail, the power vacuum in the galaxy, and the struggle for power.

Instead, they went with the tried and true formula that they established with the Goa'uld and Wraith. The Ori were simple, two-dimensional bad guys. They were not original and they didn't take SG-1 in a new creative direction. It was just a replay of the same good vs. evil fight that had already played out in the first eight seasons of the show.

And personally, I don't watch the show for the cool ships, the tech, and the big explosions. I would just as soon watch another Hatak as a big flying toilet bowl.

[suse]

So I was wrong about the ratings. That's interesting...

I thought the Lucian Alliance would get really boring really quickly. They use all the technology that we've seen for the entire run of the show. There's only so many times you can look at a Ha'tak. The episode where Cam infiltrated them was about as interesting as it would get. Which do you take more seriously?
An epic, large scale invasion of our galaxy that works on multiple fundamental levels including religion and pathogenic disease, or a criminal organization that we should barely take seriously if we just leave them to their business?

The heroes are only as good as their villains. I'm pretty sure most people liked the Ori, judging from what I've seen.

And I'm pretty sure "most" people don't. I remember reading a con report on GW that when the room was asked about the Ori there was a very lackluster response. And the asker seemed surprised. We'll never know, though the ratings drop might give some indication...

Oh yes, Cam infiltrating the Lucien Alliance. And the Best!Line!Eva! "Damn you Cam Mitchell!"

If they hadn't been made a laughingstock they might have been interesting.

On the bolded part: Oh, I can agree with that assessment, especially with Mitchell as Lead Hero.

suse

[suse]

I do think the Lucian Alliance wasn't used to its fullest potential. The writers decided to turn them into a joke when they could have been very interesting. If pirates, mobsters, and terrorists aren't interesting, then why are there so many movies and TV shows about them? If the writers had consistently presented them as a real and serious threat, they would have been a very worthy enemy for the team.

I thought the Ori were just a more boring and less flamboyant version of the Goa'uld - beings with more knowledge and technology who passed themselves off as gods to gain power. Except the Ori were an anonymous, faceless enemy which made them even more boring IMO.

I think it would have been far more interesting and original to examine the aftermath of the war that the team had been fighting for eight years. What happens when you destroy an enemy that has been dominating the galaxy for centuries? How does the SGC cope with the entire galaxy looking to them for guidance b/c they are the ones who liberated the galaxy? How do they deal with all of the competing interests in the galaxy, some of which do not like or appreciate them? It could have been such a rich, complex direction to take the show. They could have examined the Jaffa nation in more detail, the power vacuum in the galaxy, and the struggle for power.

Instead, they went with the tried and true formula that they established with the Goa'uld and Wraith. The Ori were simple, two-dimensional bad guys. They were not original and they didn't take SG-1 in a new creative direction. It was just a replay of the same good vs. evil fight that had already played out in the first eight seasons of the show.

And personally, I don't watch the show for the cool ships, the tech, and the big explosions. I would just as soon watch another Hatak as a big flying toilet bowl.

<<chokes>>

Wish I had your way with words.

suse

[Melora]

And I'm pretty sure "most" people don't. I remember reading a con report on GW that when the room was asked about the Ori there was a very lackluster response. And the asker seemed surprised. We'll never know, though the ratings drop might give some indication...

Oh yes, Cam infiltrating the Lucien Alliance. And the Best!Line!Eva! "Damn you Cam Mitchell!"

If they hadn't been made a laughingstock they might have been interesting.

On the bolded part: Oh, I can agree with that assessment, especially with Mitchell as Lead Hero.

suse

I love that line. It's just so... mockable.

[suse]

I love that line. It's just so... mockable.

And has been from the before it's echoes stopped ringing in my ears.

suse

[HPMom]

This is one of my main issues too. If they had brought in Mitchell as an experienced SG team leader, to replace a missing Sam, then remaining in charge, with Sam, once she returned, posted temporarily to SG-1 until the Ori threat was contained, I could have "bought" S9/S10. This would have allowed for some adjustments to be made, but could have ultimately led to more of a team feel, rather than a sense of no one on the team really knowing who was in charge or what they were supposed to be doing.

I agree with this too. Everyone seemed really annoyed by Vala and rolled their eyes every time she spoke. The rest of the team respected Cam only slightly more, but really didn't have a whole lot of respect for his leadership. Cam had some sort of hero worship "please be my friend Sunshine" vibe going with Daniel. And Teal'c and Sam pretty much did their own thing. Not a great team dynamic. I guess S9 & 10 could be called, Stargate SG1 - The Dysfunctional Years.

The frustrating thing here is that many of us said that there maybe some sexism involved, on societies part, the writers part, who the heck knows. But that is really a small part of the point most of us are trying to make yet it's the part most discussed. I think for most of us it's all the other stuff mentioned that really gets under our skin. Primarily that they put a completely inexperienced leader in charge of SG1. If it were Camilla Mitchell rather than Cameron Mitchell I would still feel the same way about the character.

[Ashizuri]

Then who is responsible? The catering staff? The make-up artists? I know! The costumers!

/sarcasm

suse

Catering. clearly.

This is one of my main issues too. If they had brought in Mitchell as an experienced SG team leader, to replace a missing Sam, then remaining in charge, with Sam, once she returned, posted temporarily to SG-1 until the Ori threat was contained, I could have "bought" S9/S10. This would have allowed for some adjustments to be made, but could have ultimately led to more of a team feel, rather than a sense of no one on the team really knowing who was in charge or what they were supposed to be doing.

Bolded for emphasis, quoted for truth.