S10: Critique & Contemplation

[RealmOfX]

Amconway please use spoilers!!

[Gregorius]

And that would be a require more thinking. And at that time they had 40 eps to produce a year. not the time to introduce originality.

What I don't get is that they basically used their entire writing staff for both shows instead of splitting it into two and hiring a few new writers. Then again, who needs good writing if you can have CGI and SFX?

So instead they criticize religions (a bit more forcefully that with the Goa'uld). At least they make it obvious those particular religions are false. Still, it's not hard to see parallels in thinking.

Well, religions are earlier to criticize and add the right references (Medieval, holy war, etc...) you won't get as much backlash. Plus, Arthurian myths are cool.

Adding to the "cool factor" was Mitchell being introduced as having been awarded a Congressional Medal of Honor - the US military's highest honor.

Oh, right, I forgot that. I wonder how he managed to get that seeing as the Stargate program and its affiliates such as the F302 program are top-secret and the CMOH is usually a big deal and not to mention, iirc, a public award. Furthermore, if Mitchell managed to get one, then why didn't SG-1 get their MoH since they've done a lot more things worthy of it.

Spoiler:

I'm thinking that Atlantis won'e be staying on, or in the immediate vicinity of Earth. Not sure how theyll do the, because it makes sense to keep it around and start doing proper research there, but I think Atlantis fans would be unaccepting of that.

Besides, you're right. It makes Earth too powerful.

Spoiler:

It doesn't make Earth too powerful, it makes Earth go from "Too powerful" into "too ****ing powerful" territory. They've already got Asgard technology which was the most powerful in use in the galaxy after the Replicators and the Ancients, and as result they can kick everyone's arses with ease now the Ori are gone.

Seriously, what enemy, short of the Ascended Ancients or ZPM powered Wraith, can challenge Earth? First line of defense: Iris; Second line of defense: Fleet of 304s (One ZPM powered and capable of cloaking iirc) all armed with Asgard technology and F302s; Third line of defense: Atlantis and the chair.

The Goa'uld, Lucian Alliance, normal Wraith, PG Asgard, Genii, Aschen, Tollen, etc... aren't a match for the defenses Earth has at this moment in the show. Add to that that the best and brightest (McKay, Carter, Zelenka, etc..) are also on Earth - amongst their achievements are blowing up solar systems, phasing an entire planet, etc.. - and you've got so much power concentrated that it's not even funny. Even phase technology like the Tollan used wouldn't be capable of harming Earth since the Atlantis gate take presendence over the gate at the SGC.

Basically Earth's so powerful at the moment that no a single race in the series is capable, at the moment, of posing a threat, and the only way to have Earth face a threat would be: Destruction of Ancient/Asgard tech. with no way of recovery, internal betrayal, Goa'uld stealing Ancient tech from Earth, have yet another, more powerful, enemy come attacking Earth.

[amconway]

Amconway please use spoilers!!

Sorry about that! I was responding to a comment using the same phrase that wasn't spoilered, so it slipped by me. Went back to fix it, but it looks like the mods did it for me. You didn't mention what you were referring to, so I'm assuming that it's what I think you are referring to, and is now fixed. If it isn't, let me know.
I always try to use spoilers, so if you see something like that, it is entirely accidental. Feel free to PM me with the details, and I will fix any such errors as soon as possible. I'm much more likely to see that quickly than a post in the forum. It's entirely a lucky chance that I saw this post, although, since a mod had already fixed it, it is a moot point.

[EvenstarSRV]

Exactly, add to that a storyline where the Jaffa Nation and other species (Think Aschen) want to trial Earth/SG-1 for the crimes they commited and you'd have a far better arc than what we got. Although, I have to add this, it might've been seen as criticism on the Iraq war.

That would have been quite interesting to see, especially since they'd been hinting at tensions between the Jaffa and Earth for a while. SGA attempted to do something like this with Inquisition this season, but it was rather poorly done, IMO.

I was glad to see the Lucian Alliance go. They, and the emphasis on Vala's criminality, were the things I really didn't care for in season 9. It seemed like a move into Star Wars territory, although I did laugh when Daniel recognized that.
All of a sudden there were hundreds of worlds capable of interstellar travel, wide ranging smuggling operations, etc. That happened way too fast after the fall of the system lords and, really, an intergalactic mafia weren't all that interesting to me. It also provided too much of a platform for 'Vala teaches SG-1 to be Space Pirates'.

I think the Lucian Alliance had the potential to be more than just the silly space pirates they ended up being. I thought it made sense that there would be people gradually filling in the power vacuum left by the Goa'uld, which which I saw as happening over several years and not just when most them were killed at the end of season 8.

I think the guy who took over the Odyssey in Company of Thieves was probably the closest they got to making the LA a believably menacing enemy, but he was unfortunately offset by that bumbling guy Mitchell had to deal with.

And I think her intel and experience with the LA would have given Vala a better reason to become an SG-1 member than simply being the mother of Adria, if they could have resisted the temptation to play them for laughs or as a reason to get SG-1 dressed up in leather.

[amconway]

I think the Lucian Alliance had the potential to be more than just the silly space pirates they ended up being. I thought it made sense that there would be people gradually filling in the power vacuum left by the Goa'uld, which which I saw as happening over several years and not just when most them were killed at the end of season 8.

I take your point about the gradual filling of the vacuum. I guess I just see SG-1 as having a larger purpose than policing the galaxy

And I think her intel and experience with the LA would have given Vala a better reason to become an SG-1 member than simply being the mother of Adria, if they could have resisted the temptation to play them for laughs or as a reason to get SG-1 dressed up in leather.

She should have been given a purpose, certainly, but the writers were hampered by 2 pretty major problems; the fact that Vala was not initially intended to join SG-1 (I think this led them to do things with the character that they would never have done if they'd thought they were introducing a new team member), and the actress's RL pregnancy (I can think of worse plotlines that could have come out of that--I just don't want to. )

Whatever the case, I found the shift to crime in the galaxy, whether Vala's or the Alliance's to be pretty small potatoes next to the Goa'uld and the replicators, no matter how dangerous the Alliance might have been made.

[suse]

What I don't get is that they basically used their entire writing staff for both shows instead of splitting it into two and hiring a few new writers. Then again, who needs good writing if you can have CGI and SFX?

Less ways to split the money? Didn't have a learning curve for (many) new writers? <<---pure speculation I also note they promoted more writers to wear more hats. So they had even less time to write.

Well, religions are earlier to criticize and add the right references (Medieval, holy war, etc...) you won't get as much backlash. Plus, Arthurian myths are cool.

Arthurian myths *are* cool. Too bad they screwed that portion up too.

Oh, right, I forgot that. I wonder how he managed to get that seeing as the Stargate program and its affiliates such as the F302 program are top-secret and the CMOH is usually a big deal and not to mention, iirc, a public award. Furthermore, if Mitchell managed to get one, then why didn't SG-1 get their MoH since they've done a lot more things worthy of it.

Because they didn't have to establish how worthy the rest of SG-1 was to lead the team.

suse

[EvenstarSRV]

Whatever the case, I found the shift to crime in the galaxy, whether Vala's or the Alliance's to be pretty small potatoes next to the Goa'uld and the replicators, no matter how dangerous the Alliance might have been made.

I agree about the crime aspect, it was quite silly to see SG-1, the guys who've taken down systems lords and replicators, wasting their time dealing with the rather incompetent band of criminals that the Lucian Alliance was mostly portrayed as.

But the potential I see in the LA is that they could have been much more than just the band of criminals they became. With the decline of the Goa'uld as the central governing authority in the galaxy, I think it would have been interesting to see something like the Lucian Alliance arise to try to take its place, since it was pretty clear the SGC had no interest in policing all these planets.

I think they could have been the human counterpart to the rise of the Jaffa Nation, and similarly had all the growing pains that come with forming a working government/civilization after the defeat of their oppressors. You could have rogue criminal elements who simply want to take advantage of the new power structure, but you could also have others who want to work with the SGC to resist the Ori or help make the galaxy more stable.

[amconway]

I think they could have been the human counterpart to the rise of the Jaffa Nation, and similarly had all the growing pains that come with forming a working government/civilization after the defeat of their oppressors. You could have rogue criminal elements who simply want to take advantage of the new power structure, but you could also have others who want to work with the SGC to resist the Ori or help make the galaxy more stable.

Well, I can see what you mean. That sounds pretty interesting! Still, I liked the Ori arc in general. I thought they were darn creepy, and I liked it that SG-1 was faced with an enemy that was virtually impossible to defeat. The downside of that was that they couldn't do it without the few ancients that were willing to help.
I don't think we ever got an adequate explaination of the ancients willingness to let 2 galaxies be destroyed rather than interfere, and I would have liked to see more about that--maybe we will in the future. That did lead to a fairly interesting moment when, although the Prior couldn't break Daniel, it very nearly came to that with Morgan. After having such hope about the ancients, Daniel's disillusionment must be truly profound.

[EvenstarSRV]

Well, I can see what you mean. That sounds pretty interesting! Still, I liked the Ori arc in general. I thought they were darn creepy, and I liked it that SG-1 was faced with an enemy that was virtually impossible to defeat. The downside of that was that they couldn't do it without the few ancients that were willing to help.
I don't think we ever got an adequate explaination of the ancients willingness to let 2 galaxies be destroyed rather than interfere, and I would have liked to see more about that--maybe we will in the future. That did lead to a fairly interesting moment when, although the Prior couldn't break Daniel, it very nearly came to that with Morgan. After having such hope about the ancients, Daniel's disillusionment must be truly profound.

It's interesting, because that bolded part is a large part of why I personally did not find the Ori to be that interesting of an enemy. I felt like they were made to be so overwhelmingly powerful that ultimately the only thing that SG-1 could do to really stop them and their followers was to use the Ark, which they were rather fortunate the Ancients left around for them to find.

I contrast the Ori's defeat with how SG-1 took out Apophis, Hathor, Cronus, the Replicators the first few times, and the Kull warriors. I really enjoyed watching these modern-day people use mostly modern-day means or weapons they built to take down these larger than life enemies. I liked the Ancient powers when they were used on occasion, like in Maternal Instinct, Full Circle, and Threads, but I was disappointed when it seemed like the only way the team could defeat the Ori was through these more mystical means, like the Fourth Horseman or the Ark of Truth.

[amconway]

It's interesting, because that bolded part is a large part of why I personally did not find the Ori to be that interesting of an enemy. I felt like they were made to be so overwhelmingly powerful that ultimately the only thing that SG-1 could do to really stop them and their followers was to use the Ark, which they were rather fortunate the Ancients left around for them to find.

I contrast the Ori's defeat with how SG-1 took out Apophis, Hathor, Cronus, the Replicators the first few times, and the Kull warriors. I really enjoyed watching these modern-day people use mostly modern-day means or weapons they built to take down these larger than life enemies. I liked the Ancient powers when they were used on occasion, like in Maternal Instinct, Full Circle, and Threads, but I was disappointed when it seemed like the only way the team could defeat the Ori was through these more mystical means, like the Fourth Horseman or the Ark of Truth.

I didn't take the Ark to be mystical. It was created before the ancients ascended, so was a product of their technology. I think we just didn't understand it. I'm not sure that we can really judge the Ori arc fairly given that it was supposed to go another season. There would certainly have been discussion of what it actually was, some guesses at how it worked, and a whole lot of attention to the implications of using it.

I do know what you mean about the modern day team battling against their enemies. It was a major part of what I liked about SG-1. By this point, though, they had become so powerful that it took something like the Ori to really put them at risk.

The alternative would have been to have their technology taken from them in some manner, but there were enough fans of the new high tech that while it may have pleased some of us, it would certainly have disappointed just as many.

[Mandysg1]

It's interesting, because that bolded part is a large part of why I personally did not find the Ori to be that interesting of an enemy. I felt like they were made to be so overwhelmingly powerful that ultimately the only thing that SG-1 could do to really stop them and their followers was to use the Ark, which they were rather fortunate the Ancients left around for them to find.

I contrast the Ori's defeat with how SG-1 took out Apophis, Hathor, Cronus, the Replicators the first few times, and the Kull warriors. I really enjoyed watching these modern-day people use mostly modern-day means or weapons they built to take down these larger than life enemies. I liked the Ancient powers when they were used on occasion, like in Maternal Instinct, Full Circle, and Threads, but I was disappointed when it seemed like the only way the team could defeat the Ori was through these more mystical means, like the Fourth Horseman or the Ark of Truth.

I think that in a nut shell is what made SG1 'the little show that could'. It wasn't a typical space show like Star Trek, it was the people next door being thrown into difficult situations, but not insurmountable. The bad guys were powerful, but could still be defeated. Making the Ori an enemey took us out of that and threw us into the Star Trek realm, it was all about the space ships, and finding the one weapon to defeat the undefeatable enemy. It just didn't feel like SG1 anymore.

[KatG]

It's interesting, because that bolded part is a large part of why I personally did not find the Ori to be that interesting of an enemy. I felt like they were made to be so overwhelmingly powerful that ultimately the only thing that SG-1 could do to really stop them and their followers was to use the Ark, which they were rather fortunate the Ancients left around for them to find.

I contrast the Ori's defeat with how SG-1 took out Apophis, Hathor, Cronus, the Replicators the first few times, and the Kull warriors. I really enjoyed watching these modern-day people use mostly modern-day means or weapons they built to take down these larger than life enemies. I liked the Ancient powers when they were used on occasion, like in Maternal Instinct, Full Circle, and Threads, but I was disappointed when it seemed like the only way the team could defeat the Ori was through these more mystical means, like the Fourth Horseman or the Ark of Truth.

I think that in a nut shell is what made SG1 'the little show that could'. It wasn't a typical space show like Star Trek, it was the people next door being thrown into difficult situations, but not insurmountable. The bad guys were powerful, but could still be defeated. Making the Ori an enemey took us out of that and threw us into the Star Trek realm, it was all about the space ships, and finding the one weapon to defeat the undefeatable enemy. It just didn't feel like SG1 anymore.

It's odd to say this, but I think that SG-1 became to much of a "sci-fi" show. The beauty of it, was that even people who generally don't like "sci-fi", liked SG-1, because it was "the people next door being thrown into difficult situations, but not insurmountable." It wasn't all that different from other tv dramas, and while some suspension of belief was necessary, you felt like it could really be happening. As the series progressed, and especially into the Ori arc, it became more unbelievable, especially for those who are not used to the unbelievability of sci-fi.

[jckfan55]

Despite people's derision for 'filler' I can't help but feel nostalgia for the early days of SG-1 which were more episodic. They go to a planet, get in trouble. get out of trouble and then there's cake.

I'm with you on that. And there was much more team focus. Everyone had something to do even in episodes where the story featured one character a bit more. In the later seasons & certainly in 9&10 if one character was featured it seemed that the others had little to contribute.

[jckfan55]

It's odd to say this, but I think that SG-1 became to much of a "sci-fi" show. The beauty of it, was that even people who generally don't like "sci-fi", liked SG-1, because it was "the people next door being thrown into difficult situations, but not insurmountable." It wasn't all that different from other tv dramas, and while some suspension of belief was necessary, you felt like it could really be happening. As the series progressed, and especially into the Ori arc, it became more unbelievable, especially for those who are not used to the unbelievability of sci-fi.

Or the popular conception of "sci-fi." But I know what you mean. The beauty of early SG1 is that though they were up against a strong enemy in the System Lords, our team could use creative methods to best them. They were heroes fighting the odds, but often having small victories. And of course they were *explorers* in those days too.

In a sense, the more advanced Earth became (e.g. space ships) the less believable it was.

[VSS]

It's odd to say this, but I think that SG-1 became to much of a "sci-fi" show. The beauty of it, was that even people who generally don't like "sci-fi", liked SG-1, because it was "the people next door being thrown into difficult situations, but not insurmountable." It wasn't all that different from other tv dramas, and while some suspension of belief was necessary, you felt like it could really be happening. As the series progressed, and especially into the Ori arc, it became more unbelievable, especially for those who are not used to the unbelievability of sci-fi.

That's very true, and also why the last couple of seasons felt more like Atlantis than SG-1. It started to rely more on the spaceships and aliens angle and less about the characters and the ethical dilemmas. Even the ships introduced one more unbelievable thing. I understand that the Stargate program might to have been expected to develop some kind of spaceship, but if they'd left it at the Prometheus level (and let it get destroyed) it wouldn't have changed the nature of both shows so much. Atlantis could have stayed isolated and the stargates would have remained front and center. To have the last ep take place on a ship was sadly symbolic.