S10: Critique & Contemplation

[ButterflyFullofGrace]

part of the reason is that McKay actually has a presence.

Unfortunately, it's an extremely annoying presence, especially for the guys I know. My one guy friend says it's evidence that the writers for this show are really awful and don't go into anything with a plan. If they did, we'd have much more coherent storylines and we'd have more than one character with something approaching emotional depth.

(He especially likes to compare it to Heroes, where the writers are juggling an ensemble cast. I can't say that any of those characters are wallpaper. As he says, they all play a part and you can't afford to put any of them in "Stock Character Box A" because that almost guarantees that the writers will pull a switch and change everything you think you know, as in the case of HRG. I don't argue with him. That show hits on all cylinders and is evidence of what happens when the showrunners actually have a plan. )

[saberhagen83]

part of the reason is that McKay actually has a presence. McKay is right there and in your face-kind of up close and personal-none of them came close to having anything resembling a personality-for the first two years I didn't think Rachel Lutrell could "act" and although Tori grew on as far as Wier is concerned-she was just window dressing-and speaking of dressing-who dressed her? or who did her hair?? talk about just blending into the background.

You know, that is actually some of the problems that SGA share with S9 & 10 of SG1. The characters aren't handled that well. I like Atlantis, I even like McKay, but the characters have been poorly developed. It's Sheppard/McKay that get the screen time and stuff to do. I used to think SG1 handled the characters really well before. There could be a ep that developed Teal'c but the team was still important, everyone got screentime and stuff to do that contributed to the story, for example S1 "Cor Ai", or S3 "Crystal Skull" for Daniel.

SGA suffers from the same problem SG1 has been in recent times. SG1 have Mitchell/Vala/Daniel, Sam and Teal'c are background characters. I thought SGA had much more teamish episodes in the 1st season, but S2 and most of S3 has been Sheppard/McKay that has been front and center while the others are forgotten. There are several eps that Weir, Ronon, Teyla and Ford could just as well have stayed home.

Now I like most of the episodes, but it still lacks something that will make it as good as SG1 was. If the episodes wasn't entertaining, I wouldn't have bothered with SGA, just like SG1 when it became the Mitchell/Vala/Daniel show with boring stories.

[smurf]

You are a brave, brave soul. I came over here today to see if I could figure out why the shows have slipped into such suckitude, and I have to confess I've found very little useful info and solid fact, except for your posts. I think you've called it exactly right. These ratings are abysmal! Don't syndicated shows and daytime soap operas do better than this?

It seems perfectly clear to me that the reason is the writing - of the characters and the plots. The effects and the general look of the show is still good, it's had more publicity in the last couple of years than ever before, and it's still on on Friday night.

Of course, getting the people in charge to see that it is the writing staff which needs a shake-up rather than the acting side is going to take a bit more doing.

[ses110]

It's like you said Seberhagen.TPTB are relying on only a couple of there characters. The key to SG-1 in the earlier seasons were Jack Sam Daniel and Teal'c all had there share of screentime. The show was not built around one or two characters and each character got a chance to star.Atlantis is basically Sheppard and McKay.

[the dancer of spaz]

It's like you said Seberhagen.TPTB are relying on only a couple of there characters. The key to SG-1 in the earlier seasons were Jack Sam Daniel and Teal'c all had there share of screentime. The show was not built around one or two characters and each character got a chance to star.Atlantis is basically Sheppard and McKay.

I totally agree. And it's all indicative of how the production changed after S8/S1. For me, even though Atlantis' S1 might not have been very strong, the characters still connected. And then, as soon as production directives changed, they did seem to focus on a couple of characters to carry the shows. S9 and parts of S10 focused on Daniel/Vala, and S2 and S3 focused on McKay/Sheppard to the extreme.

I don't know if they decided it would be more economical, or if it was a collective decision to bank on what "worked" for them, but it turned out a rather abysmal display of "teamwork" - especially when, like you said, SG-1 was built upon the fabric of team interaction.

That's why I can understand why so many Atlantis fans would be worried about Carter coming over. Carter, in her own right, is half of a Dominating Banter Pairing-in-the-making with McKay. If I wasn't a Carter fan, and if I didn't like McKay, I'd be terrified of the possibilities.

[ses110]

I'm not surprised at all with some Fans being worried about the Sam character on Atlantis. TPTB are paying these other Actors why not use them? It's very difficult for a show to find itself when TPTB are making cast changes every year. I just wonder if the Scifi channel has put pressure on Bridge to focus SG-1 on Daniel Vala and Mitchell and Mckay and Sheppard with Atlantis? IMO the biggest problem with stargate ahs been the loss of RDA and Gekko. They knew how to run a Show. I'm not sure why SciFi and the current TPTB at Bridge would want to change a winning formula? It's almost like they rather the shows go down in flames by following there forumal than to go back to what was working.

[the dancer of spaz]

I'm not surprised at all with some Fans being worried about the Sam character on Atlantis. TPTB are paying these other Actors why not use them? It's very diffucult for a show to find itself when TPTB are making cast changes every year. I just wonder if the Scifi channel has put pressure on Bridge to focus SG-1 on Daniel Vala and Mitchell and Mckay and Sheppard with Atlantis? IMO the biggest problem with stargate ahs been the loss of RDA and Gekko. They knew how to run a Show.

Yeah, I think it was probably a combination of factors. The long-standing for some has been the loss of RDA/Gekko. For others, it was the loss of Greenburg before that.

In this case, I would not be surprised if SciFi had a hand in the Daniel/Vala/Mitchell/McKay/Sheppard issue. Then again, I do wonder sometimes (though TPTB have denied it repeatedly) if it does have something to do with whatever section of fandom is crying the loudest.

That's not to say that it's all crying. Sometimes it's honest critique that is repeated throughout the fandom. Loudly.

For instance, Cameron was pushed front and center in S9, and then he was sometimes almost held as an afterthought in S10. Vaniel was the big deal in S9, but then towards mid-S10, it was toned down. Sam didn't have much to do in S9 and early S10, and then suddenly she had a purpose towards the mid-way point of S10. The relationship between Sam and Vala was added towards the end of S10; the same happened to Teyla and Liz. Fans showed how much they loved Beckett, so then he became a main character. Fans have said that Teyla doesn't have much development, so now they're supposedly giving it to her in spades. There's been complaints of too much McKay, and now they're dialing him down in S4.

I could go on, but those are the issues that stick out the most to me. I don't think that TPTB hang on our every word, and I don't think they try to please everybody. But I do think that, to some extent, they do listen and check to see what's popular or what's not working. And I think Daniel/Vala and McShep proved to be pretty popular a year ago. Now, it would seem, there are more and more people who've complained about Vaniel and McShep on a wider scale.

[ReganX]

For instance, Cameron was pushed front and center in S9, and then he was sometimes almost held as an afterthought in S10. Vaniel was the big deal in S9, but then towards mid-S10, it was toned down. Sam didn't have much to do in S9 and early S10, and then suddenly she had a purpose towards the mid-way point of S10. The relationship between Sam and Vala was added towards the end of S10; the same happened to Teyla and Liz. Fans showed how much they loved Beckett, so then he became a main character. Fans have said that Teyla doesn't have much development, so now they're supposedly giving it to her in spades. There's been complaints of too much McKay, and now they're dialing him down in S4.

I would say that they are aware of the opinions of the online fandom and, although fan opinion isn't allowed to dictate their actions, they may still allow it to guide them in some areas.

The real problem is the time delay - most of Season Nine was probably made before anyone saw "Avalon, Part 1" so while there were some things that could not easily be undone, fan opinion could influence other factors.

Take the co-command situation as an example - I don't think it ever occured to TPTB that people would have a problem with a new leader coming in ahead of Sam because I don't think they ever really thought of her as truly being leader of SG-1, since Season Eight shifted a lot of focus to Jack and the base.

They bring in Mitchell, make him leader and once the team is reformed, they don't allow any of the characters to indicate that Sam is more suited to or deserving of the job. Naturally, there are fans who are very angry about this and justifiably so. The idea of co-command is put forward offscreen and next season sees Mitchell himself acknowledging that he's not really leader in anything but name. There is also a marked decrease in focus on Mitchell as a character.

While I do think that TPTB could and should have foreseen the reaction to a newbie taking command, they don't seem to have and by the time they were aware of feelings on the subject, it was too late to do anything. Their window of opportunity to rectify the situation was "Beachhead", or maybe the episode immediately after but both episodes would have been made before "Avalon, Part 1" aired.

In a lot of cases, by the time TPTB are aware of the fan's opinions and make a move to take them into account and adjust the shows accordingly, it's too little, too late.

[the dancer of spaz]

True. Though JM did suggest that there were some arguments (or something like that) in the writer's room about how to incorporate Cameron Mitchell into the lead role of the team. It might not have been as clear-cut, but I agree that they might not have realize how big of a deal it would be to fans.

You're right: The time delay is a major issue. Makes me all the more concerned for S4 in some ways.

[ReganX]

True. Though JM did suggest that there were some arguments (or something like that) in the writer's room about how to incorporate Cameron Mitchell into the lead role of the team. It might not have been has clear-cut, but I agree that they might not have realize how big of a deal it would be to fans.

There's the problem - if they were thinking of the "how" rather than the "why", the "does this make any sense whatsoever" and the "what are the other options", then they were just begging for trouble.

If manouvering the character into the lead could only be done by breaking apart the team the show is named for, that'd be a big, red THIS IS A CRAP IDEA!!! sign for me.

You're right: The time delay is a major issue. Makes me all the more concerned for S4 in some ways.

Maybe they'll keep an eye on reactions to spoilers before the season airs, find out what people would like to see and what they don't want to see.

[AGateFan]

Yeah, I couldn't belive "Irresponsible" got even better ratings than "Echoes" or, like you said, TRNT which was much better episode. "Irresponsible" is possibly the worst episode ever on SGA, and I hope that kind of eps won't be included next season.

I like Atlantis, and I would hope it goes on. It made it good enough in ratings to be renewed for a S4, and it's cheaper than SG1. However I used to think S5 was very possible, but I'm starting to have my doubts about that now. I wonder if it could survive with these kind of ratings, or even more possibly, lower ratings? Cause I really can't see it picking up in ratings next season, the trend seems to be loss of viewers for every season. SG1 increased in ratings by every season, and peaked in S8, then we all know what happened.

I think ratings are more of a reflection of what the fans thought of the previous week. They probably liked Echoes and told their friends about it. Many of whom turned in this week..........I would expect next weeks to be low due to Irresponsible and negative comments that come from it.

But thats just my speculation.

[Jackie]

I cannot stand McKay. McKay gets way too much screen time. IMO it makes no sense to give a character like McKay the amount of screen time he gets.

It's Stargate McKay! I used to like Rodney--before he became half of sheppard. Now, Sheppard and McKay are turning into Vaniel IMO. They don't bicker as badly. But they don't really act with outher characters in the show. Maybe we should call them, McSheppard?

It's like you said Seberhagen.TPTB are relying on only a couple of there characters. The key to SG-1 in the earlier seasons were Jack Sam Daniel and Teal'c all had there share of screentime. The show was not built around one or two characters and each character got a chance to star.Atlantis is basically Sheppard and McKay.

it would be nice to actually see the other actors--act. However, on Atlantis--Teyla and Ronin were soooooo wallpapered that niether is very intresting at all anymore.

I totally agree. And it's all indicative of how the production changed after S8/S1. For me, even though Atlantis' S1 might not have been very strong, the characters still connected. And then, as soon as production directives changed, they did seem to focus on a couple of characters to carry the shows. S9 and parts of S10 focused on Daniel/Vala, and S2 and S3 focused on McKay/Sheppard to the extreme.

I don't know if they decided it would be more economical, or if it was a collective decision to bank on what "worked" for them, but it turned out a rather abysmal display of "teamwork" - especially when, like you said, SG-1 was built upon the fabric of team interaction.

That's why I can understand why so many Atlantis fans would be worried about Carter coming over. Carter, in her own right, is half of a Dominating Banter Pairing-in-the-making with McKay. If I wasn't a Carter fan, and if I didn't like McKay, I'd be terrified of the possibilities.

I would agree that the first season of SGA was the best. Not because they were all alone in a new galaxy with a new enemy. But, becuase the character's interacted with one another more. I think you are right about the writer's "Banking" on a pairing formula. They forgot about the old formulas and went Sheppard/McKay in SGA.

Then the writers figured out the Vala was a hot topic. They then decided to "bank" on Vaniel.

It was stated in a post earlier that the writers had arguments on hos to intro mitchell. I wonder who lost the argument.

[jckfan55]

I feel the same way. I have no interest in the first and I'll take a wait and see on the 2nd. I have some hope since RDA will be in it but I do not like the idea it is about AU. Can we stop with the AU already?

I think AU is sometimes a crutch for writers. They don't have to be as creative in a way, because they can say "anything goes, it's AU! " Much more difficult to write character development for established characters. That said, The Road not Taken was better than I expected. Of course, my expectations are pretty low these days.

[Skydiver]

i do agree that the time delay likely had an effect. but...you know for as much as they say they 'know' the fans or the like...how can they - knowing the general flavor of the show - make such sweeping changes and not have an IDEA what folks will/will not like?

I mean, it's like the head chef for Red Lobster all of a sudden deciding to turn his recipes into BBQ and then going 'hey? why don't you like BBQ? are you stupid? or do y ou have issues?'

[Skydiver]

I would agree that the first season of SGA was the best. Not because they were all alone in a new galaxy with a new enemy. But, becuase the character's interacted with one another more. I think you are right about the writer's "Banking" on a pairing formula. They forgot about the old formulas and went Sheppard/McKay in SGA.

Then the writers figured out the Vala was a hot topic. They then decided to "bank" on Vaniel.

It was stated in a post earlier that the writers had arguments on hos to intro mitchell. I wonder who lost the argument.

yeah. i don't know if it's banking on a pair, or if it's 'they're so easy/fun' and the writers - overworked and stressed - stick to the easy to crank out banter and, given the general attitude that i perceive...a basically rudderless ship of writers careening along...since there doesn't seem to be anyone who's a continuity/quality control, no one notices or has time to care that rod has ranted for 8 of the last 10, or that the shep and rod hour has turned teyla and ronon into wallpaper, or that sam is frequenty made to be stupid to make plots work, etc, etc,

they just seem to settle into their groove, on sga the shep and rod banter hour, on sg1 the vaniel burlesque hour, and kinda forget that they're supposed to be writing for ALL the characters