S10: Critique & Contemplation

[ReganX]

I think jonas lived a rather cloistered life. I think in Langaran society, smart kids were segregated and educated for the good of the govt. and a way to keep control over them is to keep thier knowledge base narrow.

I could see that. A very intelligent child, with an ability to learn very quickly, groomed for public service from an early age.

[smurf]

I've never really understood the "moral-centre" thing going on for Daniel, maybe because of that inconsistancy in his morality I get from various episodes - We mustn't change their culture it would be wrong of us. We must change their culture it's wrong. We shouldn't allow people to die. Whoops, killed everyone.
I think it's because he's written to oppose Jack's viewpoint, and Jack is a morally and emotionally complex character. So, being essentially a plot device to force conflict has made it difficult for me to really care about the character properly.


Jonas, in my view, was never innocent. Not by a long shot. He was niave only through his lack of knowledge/experience, and through his desire to believe in the best in people (until shown otherwise). He is a scholar, and probably not well travelled (I doubt there would be anywhere he would be allowed to travel to), but he would have experienced war in his lifetime. Through his work he has moved far enough away from any purely idealistic attitude to actually make the decision that he would trade one man's reputation for millions of lives.
I would have loved to have seen him written with a bit more of that edge he was allowed in Meridian when not a main character.

I love the Adrian Conrad exposition moment from Nightwalkers. It's not just an infodump, it's a wonderful little character interaction moment.

[Rogue]

LOL

you want to write a fic that no one reads???? write a daniel centric fic and not be a member of the HC/slash crowd. I've noticed, if i write a fic and i put DAniel's name in the synopsis or state that it's about him, fewer people read it than if i write a sam or sam/jack or sam/teal'c fic.

I think characterization was part of my issue with daniel in the beginning. I see him as a worldly man, certainly as well traveled as jack if not better. intelligent, savvy and, yes, a bit high maintenance. He's used to being on his own or working soliatary and isn't used to a tight rein and discipline

many daniel fans like to accentuate his innocence, his naivete. they like to make him selfless, caring, sweet and adored. he's the guy that carries extra tampons for sam in his vest (yes, i've read that in fic...now honestly, don't you think that sam would DIE before she has daniel carry tampons for her????)

since much of the fic i was reading had this idealized daniel in it, i could never connect with him. My daniel is always darker than they like. He has an edge to him. and while he may not be as much 'glass is half empty' as jack is, daniel is a rather practical man whose main failing is looking short term instead of the long term ramifications of his actions

Currently I find Daniel very boring. He seems to be reduced to a one-dimensional character. If is not the focus of one of Valas jokes, he is talking so fast that the closed caption on my TV goes into hyperdrive.

[ReganX]

Currently I find Daniel very boring. He seems to be reduced to a one-dimensional character. If is not the focus of one of Valas jokes, he is talking so fast that the closed caption on my TV goes into hyperdrive.

The poor guy probably only has a limited amount of non-Vala's sidekick screentime. He has to speak quickly to get what lines he has delivered in that time.

[AGateFan]

I've never really understood the "moral-centre" thing going on for Daniel, maybe because of that inconsistancy in his morality I get from various episodes - We mustn't change their culture it would be wrong of us. We must change their culture it's wrong. We shouldn't allow people to die. Whoops, killed everyone.
I think it's because he's written to oppose Jack's viewpoint, and Jack is a morally and emotionally complex character. So, being essentially a plot device to force conflict has made it difficult for me to really care about the character properly.


Jonas, in my view, was never innocent. Not by a long shot. He was niave only through his lack of knowledge/experience, and through his desire to believe in the best in people (until shown otherwise). He is a scholar, and probably not well travelled (I doubt there would be anywhere he would be allowed to travel to), but he would have experienced war in his lifetime. Through his work he has moved far enough away from any purely idealistic attitude to actually make the decision that he would trade one man's reputation for millions of lives.
I would have loved to have seen him written with a bit more of that edge he was allowed in Meridian when not a main character.

I love the Adrian Conrad exposition moment from Nightwalkers. It's not just an infodump, it's a wonderful little character interaction moment.

Daniel gets the "moral center" thing from the same place green peace people, peta people and other hippie type people get it. He is your liberal cultural civilian on a team of more conservative military types. He spends a lot of time thinking and probably thinking about how others (like mean government people) have screwed things up and how HE is going to stop them from making further mistakes. Sometimes green peace and the peta types have really good points, sometimes they are waayy out there but they always claim the moral superiority. Daniel is like that.

Now don’t get me wrong Daniel wasn’t a far left liberal and Jack wasn’t a far right conservative but the conflict between moderates on both sides can still sometimes be contentious. Over time Daniel has lost his “hippiness” which makes sense, most hippies do as time goes by. Jack had lost some of his conservative edge, though his change is not as obvious (he still pigeonholes the Russians just as much as he ever did) but then he was older when he started so the change would not be so obvious.

So, does Daniel want to save the world and would he sacrifice himself to do so? Sure. Does he see himself as the moral compass to the less moral military types? I think so. So basically what I am saying is that what the fanfic people write about Daniel is pretty much how I think Daniel sees himself. And just like the green peace or peta people they (the fic writers or Daniel) cannot see when he is correct and being genuinely self sacrificing and when he is just being selfish and insisting that everyone agree with some waay out there (or just unrealistic) opinion.

[smurf]

Daniel gets the "moral center" thing from the same place green peace people, peta people and other hippie type people get it. He is your liberal cultural civilian on a team of more conservative military types. He spends a lot of time thinking and probably thinking about how others (like mean government people) have screwed things up and how HE is going to stop them from making further mistakes. Sometimes green peace and the peta types have really good points, sometimes they are waayy out there but they always claim the moral superiority. Daniel is like that.

Now don’t get me wrong Daniel wasn’t a far left liberal and Jack wasn’t a far right conservative but the conflict between moderates on both sides can still sometimes be contentious. Over time Daniel has lost his “hippiness” which makes sense, most hippies do as time goes by. Jack had lost some of his conservative edge, though his change is not as obvious (he still pigeonholes the Russians just as much as he ever did) but then he was older when he started so the change would not be so obvious.

So, does Daniel want to save the world and would he sacrifice himself to do so? Sure. Does he see himself as the moral compass to the less moral military types? I think so. So basically what I am saying is that what the fanfic people write about Daniel is pretty much how I think Daniel sees himself. And just like the green peace or peta people they (the fic writers or Daniel) can see when he is correct and being genuinely self sacrificing and when he is just being selfish and insisting that everyone agree with some waay out there (or just unrealistic) opinion.

That's a very good way of putting it. Thanks.
Just one point though, I've found people like that (the more "enthusiastic" shall we say) do not know when they are being self-sacrificing and when they are being selfish. By taking what they believe is the moral high ground there is a tendancy for them to assume that everything they believe is right, and therefore everything they do is selfless. That's how I see Daniel on the show, and that's how he comes across in the (few) Daniel fics I've read where he isn't poor ikkle Daniel.
That's in my experience though. I find the conversations normally end in the "you're selfish and want to destroy earth/kill fluffy animals" manner. **implied footstamp**

I don't think he is any more moral than any of the other characters. Just that his is the voice that speaks mostly in black & white, and so more likely to have a viewpoint easily understood.
I haven't watched most of S9, and with a number of posters talking about darker Daniel, has he started living in the grey areas of life (like the rest of us)? That would be an interesting change of character for me... if I hadn't become bored of the show already.

[kazzyk]

Interesting takes on Daniel--I never saw him as weak just more open to the possibilitys of each new world.

I had a real problem with the whole Daniel :" I dont feel I belong anywhere" or
the whole "what good is my life stuff".
He did not strike me as someone trying to figure out his greater purpose or place in the grand sheme of things ( I think he knew).

The Daniel we have now is only a weak imposter to what he was. A side kick to Vala and even Mitchell.

[ParadoxRealities]

The tragedy of Jonas was that - a taste of things to come in S9 - TPTB simply never got to grips with blending him into the team properly or handled his character properly.

The issues that Jack had with him were more or less resolved in Descent (in fact the episode, partly, was designed to end those issues and prove that Jonuas was someone Jack could trust to watch his six and save his team when the chips were down) and that would have been fine if it had ended there. But thereafter, they seemed to change their minds and decide they didn't want Jack to accept Jonuas that quickly, so we had this curious mix for the rest of the season where Jack accepted him, Jack didn't accept him, Jack was okay with him, Jack deliberately kept him off a team mission, despite there being no sound reason for him not to be with them...right up to Prophecy, we were STILL mired in 'Jack doesn't think much of Jonas' issues. This constant reset of their relationship - such as it was - didn't help integrate poor Jonas at all.

see, i actually liked that. it actually helped to accept Jonas, to see Jack floundering like that. i thought it was very realistic to the way he would act, wavering like that. i didn't sense that his trust should have been immediate (after that mission) and binding, as it was with Teal'c, and to a less obvious extent, Daniel and Sam. Sam was probably the closest to Jonas, but in Jack's eyes she always had something to offer, she always had the training and the qualifications. sure, he didn't want to hear about the science (still doesn't), but they were soldiers, moreover, soldiers in the USAF. Jonas didn't have that advantage.

P.S. Is now a bad time to rant about how badly done that scene in Descent was?

I remember reading a load of posts saying they should have brought back Nyam (? Daniel's alien research assistant) and they would have accepted him without trouble...

hah. HAH. that's funny.

jonas, in my interpretation, rarely left the school and had very little knowledge of the world as a whole (certainly nothing beyond his own planet) whereas daniel, even before he went through the gate for the first time, was very well traveled.

that's one of the things i DID NOT like about Jonas. Daniel i could see on a field team, even at the beggining. maybe not so much combat, but he got better (slowly). Jonas i can't see doing that at all. especially not with what they knew in s6 about the kind of combat they were going to get into. there's a scene somewhere, i wanna say its in Unnatural Selection, where we see Jack training Jonas in reloading his mag. i'm not sure if i wanted to shoot Jonas or Jack more. you didn't teach him that before!?!!? or you KIDDING ME?! ...course, Daniel had his 9mm reloading scenes as well. what was that...Forever in a Day? so i guess it goes both ways. still bugged me though.

[smurf]

that's one of the things i DID NOT like about Jonas. Daniel i could see on a field team, even at the beggining. maybe not so much combat, but he got better (slowly). Jonas i can't see doing that at all. especially not with what they knew in s6 about the kind of combat they were going to get into. there's a scene somewhere, i wanna say its in Unnatural Selection, where we see Jack training Jonas in reloading his mag. i'm not sure if i wanted to shoot Jonas or Jack more. you didn't teach him that before!?!!? or you KIDDING ME?! ...course, Daniel had his 9mm reloading scenes as well. what was that...Forever in a Day? so i guess it goes both ways. still bugged me though.

It occurred to me when I was watching Shadowplay again that given the situation his country/planet was in it shouldn't really be a surprise that he knows how to handle a weapon. Also Dr. Keiran imagines Jonas being fairly confident with a pistol which suggests some prior experience - given their closeness if Jonas never had any previous skill in that area it's seems a bit of a jump to believe otherwise.

And it was Unnatural Selection.


ETA: Mentioning Shadowplay (although not my favourite episode) reminds me that Stargate always did adult stories, just not "adult" as in computer game.

[Skydiver]

see, i actually liked that. it actually helped to accept Jonas, to see Jack floundering like that. i thought it was very realistic to the way he would act, wavering like that. i didn't sense that his trust should have been immediate (after that mission) and binding, as it was with Teal'c, and to a less obvious extent, Daniel and Sam. Sam was probably the closest to Jonas, but in Jack's eyes she always had something to offer, she always had the training and the qualifications. sure, he didn't want to hear about the science (still doesn't), but they were soldiers, moreover, soldiers in the USAF. Jonas didn't have that advantage.

personally? i don't think jack accepted sam as anything other than the scientist he was saddled with until Solitudes. I think as they were stuck together, trying to survive and figure a way out that he truly respected her as an officer.

he and daniel had the prior friendship. Teal'c proved himself by turning on his god and saving the team. Sam???? sam was someone that jack HAD to have on the team

I wonder, had ITOLD happened in season one if Jack would have trusted her as much as he did in s2. It, to me, was a combo of solitudes, then in Serpents Grasp, when she willingly disobeyed orders to go with them, those two things cemented his trust in her

With Jonas, honestly, i think descent started Jack trusting him, but i think it took until Prophecy for him to really trust Jonas. I think the main reason Jack allowed him to join the team - other than sticking it to the russians - was because both Sam and Teal'c wanted Jonas. And Jack's trust in them bought Jonas some leeway

That's one of hte huge issues with Mitchell. He's done NOTHING to earn anyone's trust. Yes, sam was gone and mitch kinda fell into the job....but Mitch is more the 'friend of a friend who called in favors to get him into a position he's barely classified for' than a competant officer who earned his way into a plum assignment.

Prior to s9, characters on the team have had to prove that they were needed and wanted...but now apparantly that isn't the case. We as viewers are just told over and over and over how needed they are, but are rarely shown that

[ReganX]

That's one of hte huge issues with Mitchell. He's done NOTHING to earn anyone's trust. Yes, sam was gone and mitch kinda fell into the job....but Mitch is more the 'friend of a friend who called in favors to get him into a position he's barely classified for' than a competant officer who earned his way into a plum assignment.

Prior to s9, characters on the team have had to prove that they were needed and wanted...but now apparantly that isn't the case. We as viewers are just told over and over and over how needed they are, but are rarely shown that

Good point.

The story behind Mitchell's inclusion in the team isn't that he earned his position on the team, he asked for it. He wasn't invited to join the team because it was thought that he could bring something of value to SG-1, he is on the team because he decided that he was more deserving of a place than any of the officers stationed at the SGC or any of the officers being trained to join an SG team.

When SG-1 was first formed, the team consisted of an officer experienced in Black Ops, who had led both previous stargate missions; an extremely competent soldier who knew more about how the 'gate operated than anybody else on Earth did; a man who, in addition to being an expert on cultures and languages, had spent a year offworld and spoke the language of the Goa'uld fluently and a warrior with a good seventy plus years of combat experience under his belt, who had held the highest rank possible in an enemy army.

With Jonas, his natural ability to learn quickly allowed him to develop the skills to substitute for Daniel.

And Mitchell? Let's see, he read all of the SG-1's supposedly confidential mission reports which, given that in addition to reading them, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c also wrote their share of them, as well as experiencing the missions in question first hand, is of little use.

The Mitchell they have shown us is somebody I would consider to be more of a hindrance than a help to the team.

If the "Mitchell The Hewo Who Won A CMOH Because He Was So Much Braver And Specialler Than Every Other F-302 Pilot And We Owe Him Everything, Including Leadership Of SG-1 Because He's So Darn Great!" storyline was intended to endear the character to the audience, to justify his place on the team and to demonstate his value to the team, then it failed miserably as far as I'm concerned.

Tip for the writers: If such over the top pimping is needed to justify a character's introduction, that character is better off not introduced.

[LaCroix]

I'm not too sure how many people get over to the Sci-Fi wire page, but I just did. But if the ratings for the first half aren't any higher than the first
listed on this page, it's over

Spoiler:

ECW2.8
Countdown to Doomsday 1.1
Jeepers Creepers 2 1.1
Immortal 1.0
Poseidon Adventure part two 0.9
Bats0.9
SS Doomtrooper 0.9
Hellraiser 8: Hellword 0.8
The Day After 0.8
Black Hole 0.8

Source: Nielsen Galaxy Report, 6/12/06 - 6/18/06

We may be watching this on Skiffy.

[Uber]

I'm not too sure how many people get over to the Sci-Fi wire page, but I just did. But if the ratings for the first half aren't any higher than the first
listed on this page, it's over

Spoiler:

ECW2.8
Countdown to Doomsday 1.1
Jeepers Creepers 2 1.1
Immortal 1.0
Poseidon Adventure part two 0.9
Bats0.9
SS Doomtrooper 0.9
Hellraiser 8: Hellword 0.8
The Day After 0.8
Black Hole 0.8

Source: Nielsen Galaxy Report, 6/12/06 - 6/18/06

We may be watching this on Skiffy.

Aw man. I know this is OT, but I really had hoped the wrestling thing would crash and burn.

[LaCroix]

Aw man. I know this is OT, but I really had hoped the wrestling thing would crash and burn.

I was really hoping for that too. I'm going to write more letters to get RDA back, so maybe, maybe.

[MediaSavant]

I'm not too sure how many people get over to the Sci-Fi wire page, but I just did. But if the ratings for the first half aren't any higher than the first
listed on this page, it's over

I don't know why a rating is a spoiler, but as an FYI, the next week ECW got a 2.3 and the 3rd week it got a 2.2.

I don't see any threat to the Stargates that you do.