S10: Critique & Contemplation

[suse]

Catering. clearly.



Bolded for emphasis, quoted for truth.

It would have taken way more than that for me to like S9/S10. The Ori were a nightmare. And not because they were well-written. But I have issues with "ascended" beings being used a a crutch anyway. And they were. For 2 years. And Vala... Oy. What a waste of CB's talent.

suse

[Ashizuri]

It would have taken way more than that for me to like S9/S10. The Ori were a nightmare. And not because they were well-written. But I have issues with "ascended" beings being used a a crutch anyway. And they were. For 2 years. And Vala... Oy. What a waste of CB's talent.

suse

I could have watched it as mindless entertainment with a few (major) tweaks in the beginiing, like the Mitchell situation. I wouldn't have loved it, but had those first few episode been less horrifically awful, I probably could have bought it and stuck around longer than I did in the hopes it would have gotten better.

Get rid of Vala, change up Mitchell's intro/back story to something that at least exists in the same universe as the shows canon, give me a logical reason for Sam giving up command, give Teal'c lines, get Beau Bridges to give us the kind of performance we know he's capable of, get the stick out of Daniel's back-side, lose Dr. Lam and her "woe is me, I hate my dad" stories, and create a better villian than the lame-o Ori and I likely would have adored it the way I did the first 8 seasons.

Just a small list of changes...

[knowsfords]

Teal'c would not be amused.

Yes he would, he would definately find the concept of him unable to lead amusing.

[Crazedwraith]

Although again this thread has gained a ridiculous amount of posts since you said it'd like to take issue with the snark directed against the spelling of "Lightsabre." Obviously 'Vladius' is unaware that sabre is actually the correct spelling of the word and 'saber' is in fact an americanisation of the word. Lightsabre is in fact a legitimate spelling of the word. In fact I recall hearing that the original Star Wars scripts actually included that spelling rather than 'lightsaber' which is found in the licensed works.


Slightly more on topic: I'd like to agree with people who felt the lucien alliance were uderused as were the Free Jaffa Nation. Season 9 would have been better off dealing with the aftermath of the goa'uld's collapse rather than introducing a new galaxy wide threat.

[HPMom]

Then who is responsible? The catering staff? The make-up artists? I know! The costumers!

/sarcasm

suse

I just noticed this post. This is hilarious! But you forgot the gaffer and I think that's who's responsible.

[suse]

I just noticed this post. This is hilarious! But you forgot the gaffer and I think that's who's responsible.

Noted.



suse

[Petra]

Wow, I go away for 2 days and have almost 10 pages to catch up on! That's impressive.

I don't want to repeat everything that has been said (brilliantly I might add), I just have 2 things to say to Vladius:

Firstly, when you said that guys can't identify with a female lead, does it mean that according to you there weren't any males who watched/enjoyed shows like "Xena: The Warrior Princess", "Buffy" or BSG? Not to mention "Alien(s)"?

Secondly, exactly how Mitchell was similar to Jonas Quinn? I loved Jonas, his character and his introduction and frankly I find this comparison to be a bit offensive towards him. Of course I may change my mind if you explain in which way were they similar and provide examples.

However, seeing that you still didn't answer my question (examples of Cam's leading capabilities and examples showing that neither Teal'c nor Sam possess such capabilities; something other than "because she's a woman" would be nice ) nor Suse's, I guess there's not much point in asking for some justification, is it?

I think it would have been far more interesting and original to examine the aftermath of the war that the team had been fighting for eight years. What happens when you destroy an enemy that has been dominating the galaxy for centuries? How does the SGC cope with the entire galaxy looking to them for guidance b/c they are the ones who liberated the galaxy? How do they deal with all of the competing interests in the galaxy, some of which do not like or appreciate them? It could have been such a rich, complex direction to take the show. They could have examined the Jaffa nation in more detail, the power vacuum in the galaxy, and the struggle for power.

I love this idea. It would make an awesome show to watch indeed.

However, given the whole mess with Mitchell and Vala, and most of all - the lack of contuinity I'm kinda glad that writers didn't do it. If the execution overall was as bad as in "our" season 9 & 10 it would put me off completely. The way it played out at least I could pretend it was a different show.

[Vladius]

I do think the Lucian Alliance wasn't used to its fullest potential. The writers decided to turn them into a joke when they could have been very interesting. If pirates, mobsters, and terrorists aren't interesting, then why are there so many movies and TV shows about them? If the writers had consistently presented them as a real and serious threat, they would have been a very worthy enemy for the team.

I thought the Ori were just a more boring and less flamboyant version of the Goa'uld - beings with more knowledge and technology who passed themselves off as gods to gain power. Except the Ori were an anonymous, faceless enemy which made them even more boring IMO.

I think it would have been far more interesting and original to examine the aftermath of the war that the team had been fighting for eight years. What happens when you destroy an enemy that has been dominating the galaxy for centuries? How does the SGC cope with the entire galaxy looking to them for guidance b/c they are the ones who liberated the galaxy? How do they deal with all of the competing interests in the galaxy, some of which do not like or appreciate them? It could have been such a rich, complex direction to take the show. They could have examined the Jaffa nation in more detail, the power vacuum in the galaxy, and the struggle for power.

Instead, they went with the tried and true formula that they established with the Goa'uld and Wraith. The Ori were simple, two-dimensional bad guys. They were not original and they didn't take SG-1 in a new creative direction. It was just a replay of the same good vs. evil fight that had already played out in the first eight seasons of the show.

And personally, I don't watch the show for the cool ships, the tech, and the big explosions. I would just as soon watch another Hatak as a big flying toilet bowl.

If they reexamined it again, we would have to endure another speech from Jacob Carter about "power vacuums." (Except he's dead.)

It was definitely time for something new. Another problem is that it wasn't an actual war - one side was essentially fighting itself, and the other side was trying to sustain the other side fighting itself.

I thought the Ori were very original in some respects. Unlike the Goa'uld, they had large amounts of "actual power" and used it in ways that were biblical in proportion. They didn't care about their own deaths; they just used them to further the cause. It made them seem much more unstoppable than the Goa'uld, and much more dangerous because they were all one unified body.

You don't need to be fascinated by the technology to get bored looking at the same things over and over again. You can only take so much of the bronzed egyptian look. I think the pseudo-medieval Ori was a step in the right direction in terms of how the series felt and looked.

[jasminaGo]

If they reexamined it again, we would have to endure another speech from Jacob Carter about "power vacuums." (Except he's dead.)

It was definitely time for something new. Another problem is that it wasn't an actual war - one side was essentially fighting itself, and the other side was trying to sustain the other side fighting itself.

I thought the Ori were very original in some respects. Unlike the Goa'uld, they had large amounts of "actual power" and used it in ways that were biblical in proportion. They didn't care about their own deaths; they just used them to further the cause. It made them seem much more unstoppable than the Goa'uld, and much more dangerous because they were all one unified body.

You don't need to be fascinated by the technology to get bored looking at the same things over and over again. You can only take so much of the bronzed egyptian look. I think the pseudo-medieval Ori was a step in the right direction in terms of how the series felt and looked.

Actually the Ori weren't original at all IMO. They were just an expansion of the Ancients story. We met the Ancients back in season 3. *shrugs*

[Vladius]

Wow, I go away for 2 days and have almost 10 pages to catch up on! That's impressive.

I don't want to repeat everything that has been said (brilliantly I might add), I just have 2 things to say to Vladius:

Firstly, when you said that guys can't identify with a female lead, does it mean that according to you there weren't any males who watched/enjoyed shows like "Xena: The Warrior Princess", "Buffy" or BSG? Not to mention "Alien(s)"?

Secondly, exactly how Mitchell was similar to Jonas Quinn? I loved Jonas, his character and his introduction and frankly I find this comparison to be a bit offensive towards him. Of course I may change my mind if you explain in which way were they similar and provide examples.

However, seeing that you still didn't answer my question (examples of Cam's leading capabilities and examples showing that neither Teal'c nor Sam possess such capabilities; something other than "because she's a woman" would be nice ) nor Suse's, I guess there's not much point in asking for some justification, is it?

Not as such, if the writing is good enough. (Which, paradoxically, most people here think the writing wasn't good in seasons 9 and 10 anyway.)

What I meant was not pejorative, even though I prefer Daniel to Jonas. What I meant is that he's "the new guy."

Teal'c is an alien. He is also used to only making commands when he barks in another language. The IOA wouldn't really be comfortable with it.

Not saying Sam can't lead, just saying she isn't really the "leader" type of person. No, I am not saying this because she's a woman.

[Vladius]

Actually the Ori weren't original at all IMO. They were just an expansion of the Ancients story. We met the Ancients back in season 3. *shrugs*

But it shows how the ancients can manifest themselves in so many different ways. The ones in season 3 were buddhists, essentially.

Ori are a deviant sect that gives the Ancients a whole new branch to their history, and a possible reason why they left their galaxy and are severely restricted in power. It also gives them more internal conflicts sometimes in the form of offscreen ethical debates between Merlin and Morgan le Fay. It also expands the Stargate mythos in a significant way when compared with the rest of the canon.

[Petra]

You don't need to be fascinated by the technology to get bored looking at the same things over and over again. You can only take so much of the bronzed egyptian look. I think the pseudo-medieval Ori was a step in the right direction in terms of how the series felt and looked.

for the bolded part
Does it mean then that the series in those last seasons was/felt medieval?

Personally I got bored with the design in the last 2 seasons, when we got medieval village/Ori ships every other episode. The first 8 seasons had much more variety design/costium/location-wise.

What I meant was not pejorative, even though I prefer Daniel to Jonas. What I meant is that he's "the new guy."

I know that you meant it in "the good way". That's why I'm asking what is so similar about them apart from being "the new guy"? I found Jonas and his interactions with the team to be believable, while Mitchell's case is the opposite. However I'm assuming you see some parallels between them (again, apart from being new), so I'm curious what those are in your opinion?

And if you think Jonas was a good character than you sort of undermine your own claims that Mitchell had to be the leader, instead of a member, of the team in order to get some character development.

Teal'c is an alien. He is also used to only making commands when he barks in another language. The IOA wouldn't really be comfortable with it.

That's not what you said earlier. Then you claimed Teal'c doesn't have leadership capabilities, which is why I asked you to prove it somehow, because he wouldn't have been leading an entire army if he wasn't a good leader. It has however nothing to do with his leading SG-1, because as many here has said, an alien in charge of SG-1 also wouldn't be realistic.

Not saying Sam can't lead, just saying she isn't really the "leader" type of person. No, I am not saying this because she's a woman.

Okay then, what is the "leader" type? Who is this type of person and WHY?

So far I've seen you make some general statements which you refuse to back up in any way. Give us some examples, try to prove what you are saying - that's how discussion works, you know.

[jasminaGo]

But it shows how the ancients can manifest themselves in so many different ways. The ones in season 3 were buddhists, essentially.

Ori are a deviant sect that gives the Ancients a whole new branch to their history, and a possible reason why they left their galaxy and are severely restricted in power. It also gives them more internal conflicts sometimes in the form of offscreen ethical debates between Merlin and Morgan le Fay. It also expands the Stargate mythos in a significant way when compared with the rest of the canon.

You're right, and it's good for those that liked the Ancients.

For me personally it was rather painful to watch. What I always liked about Stargate was the realism of the show (as much as a sci fi show can be realistic off course), the things that had a theoretical scientific base expanded into a fictional world. So the Ancients showing up here and there on occasions weren't much of a problem, but when they become the center of the show, it went more into fantasy land instead of science fiction. Just look at the way they were defeated. Magic boxes that no one even tries to understands how they work just happen to be laying around waiting for SG1 to find them. It's like something pulled out of a fairy tale.

p.s Two more things. One, the Ancient in S3 wasn't the only one we met, we found out more about them as the seasons went on. And two, wasn't Atlantis supposed to be the show that discovered the secrets of the Ancients and not SG1?

You said that people shouldn't blame the writers. They are the people that create the stories we're watching. Ignoring what was said and done in the previous seasons of the show just because it didn't work in the new stories was done by the writers.

[jasminaGo]

Okay then, what is the "leader" type? Who is this type of person and WHY?

The one that gets beat up all the time.

[Ashizuri]

You said that people shouldn't blame the writers. They are the people that create the stories we're watching. Ignoring what was said and done in the previous seasons of the show just because it didn't work in the new stories was done by the writers.

Thank you for repeating this. I've spent the last 15 pages not knowing who to blame.