S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Angarag89]

Watch Outer limits - Relativity Theory episode which has everything is shared with stargate SG1. ship, hyperdrive and aliens all are the same kind of interesting.

[LaCroix]

I re-watched the movie last week. And as I watched it, I found myself more interested in it then I was in seasons 9 and 10. In the movie that team used their brains and wits to get out of a sticky situation.

There was no need for beaming devices, bigger weapons, lo-jacks or ships ( except Ra's, of course).

[EvenstarSRV]

I didn't take the Ark to be mystical. It was created before the ancients ascended, so was a product of their technology. I think we just didn't understand it. I'm not sure that we can really judge the Ori arc fairly given that it was supposed to go another season. There would certainly have been discussion of what it actually was, some guesses at how it worked, and a whole lot of attention to the implications of using it.

I do know what you mean about the modern day team battling against their enemies. It was a major part of what I liked about SG-1. By this point, though, they had become so powerful that it took something like the Ori to really put them at risk.

The alternative would have been to have their technology taken from them in some manner, but there were enough fans of the new high tech that while it may have pleased some of us, it would certainly have disappointed just as many.

Well, the fact that the mechanics of the Ark were never explained on screen leaves it as 'mystical' to me. If they'd gotten another season it could have been explained, though the fact that for 2 seasons they never even tried to explain the basis of the Ori's power, just that they get it simply from the belief of their followers, makes me doubt it.

And then I compare how the Ark was treated in the Ark of Truth to how the weapon on Dakara was treated in the Reckoning two-parter. Jacob, Carter and Ba'al were able to find the Ancient tech, explain how it worked, calibrate it to work, and activate it, while also showing O'Neill's, Daniel's, and Teal'c's battles against their respective enemies.

Ark of Truth had about the same running time as Reckoning, but when not tied up (needlessly IMO) with the Replicators on the ship, SG-1 were only able to find the Ark and activate it, with no attempt (that I can recall) to explain how the Ark can change the Doci's mind, or how the Priors can then send that message along to all of the Ori followers; it's just said to happen.

I did like how they explained how the anti-prior device worked in the Fourth Horsemen, and I wonder if instead of relying on the Ark, they could have modified this device to permanently disable the highly evolved part of a Prior, essentially making them human. Then in the movie, SG-1's mission could have been to infiltrate the city in Celestis and use this device on the Doci...and then I guess you would just have to handwave how this change would then be transmitted to the other Priors. But I personally think it would have been better if it was a human-built device that changed the Doci's mind, rather than an unexplained Ancient device that was luckily kept in the same room with Vala, Daniel, Teal'c, the Doci and Adria during their showdown.

That's very true, and also why the last couple of seasons felt more like Atlantis than SG-1. It started to rely more on the spaceships and aliens angle and less about the characters and the ethical dilemmas. Even the ships introduced one more unbelievable thing. I understand that the Stargate program might to have been expected to develop some kind of spaceship, but if they'd left it at the Prometheus level (and let it get destroyed) it wouldn't have changed the nature of both shows so much. Atlantis could have stayed isolated and the stargates would have remained front and center. To have the last ep take place on a ship was sadly symbolic.

I rather liked the Prometheus because it felt like a technological development that made sense. It took the SGC 4 years to get the 301 which failed, then 2 more years to get a workable 302, and at ~7 years into the program the SGC finally got a 303, which still had hyperdrive problems.

But then within only about 3 years (season 7/8-10) Earth is suddenly able to produce 4 fully-functioning 304s (Daedalus, Odyssey, Korolev, and Apollo)? That was too big of a technological jump, IMHO, and made it much harder to believe that these were modern-day people accomplishing this stuff.

[Gregorius]

I rather liked the Prometheus because it felt like a technological development that made sense. It took the SGC 4 years to get the 301 which failed, then 2 more years to get a workable 302, and at ~7 years into the program the SGC finally got a 303, which still had hyperdrive problems.

It doesn't make sense, at all. When a new (fighter/freighter) aircraft is developed it takes years before even a prototype is built. Example: The JSF project was started in 1992, in 1996 prototype contracts were awarded and in 2000 the prototypes flew and only in 2011 it'll be introduced. That's 19 years for a 5th generation fighter plane to be introduced and 8 years for the prototypes to be designed and built. Another example would be the airbus 380 for which the initial ideas were created in 1988, market research was done in 1991, it's maiden flight in 2005 and in 2007 the first 380s were delivered; that's again at least 14 years until the maiden flight.

Even the Space Shuttle plans were begon in 1968, made public in 1972, Enterprise glider in 1976, first fully functional orbiter in 1979 and first launch in 1981. That's, counting from the formal introduction, 19 years from announcement to first flight. And that's when basically starting from scratch.

It takes time for an aerospace vehicle to be designed, tested and used, and usually that entire road, especially for manned flight, takes more than a decade to complete. Not to mention that even building an aircraft carrier or a nuclear submarine takes at least a few years.

The Prometheus was introduced in S6. It's brand new technology in terms of propulsion, gravity generation, etc... Even with the enormous budget of the department of defense it would've taken them more than 6 years to complete because the engineers designing the thing would've had to get familiar with the new technology and its effect on the structural design (Remember, it had to be capable of surviving re-entry, planet side flight, hyperspace, etc..). Also, designing a fighter aircraft (Like 301/302) is nothing like designing a carrier as the design parameters and requirements are completely different. To have the Prommie in S6 make sense would mean that the program would've had to started in S1.

The only way for the Prommie to make sense would be if they'd manage to capture a Goa'uld hyperspace capable ship somewhere around, I guess, S1 or S2, reverse engineered it during S3/S4 (Reverse engineering an alien craft in 2 years is very, very quick) and started building the thing in S4. Or if they started managed to capture an alien, hyperspace capable vessel, and retrovitted it with Earth tech and repaired it.

For example, had the Goa'uld ship found in Nightwalkers been introduced in, lets say, S8 or S9 it would've made sense because the ship was built by the Goa'uld on Earth with Earth technology and they'd have a far easier time to finish it, figure out how it works and launch it.

[EvenstarSRV]

Points taken. I guess my main point was that it seemed relatively more realistic for the SGC to take 6-7 years to get a partially-functioning X-303 than it was for it get 4 fully-functioning 304s in only 3 years.

Was getting the Prometheus in S6 absolutely realistic? No, but I do think getting the 304s in S8-10 was even more unrealistic and required the writers to take a larger amount of dramatic license compared to the 303.

[Mandysg1]

Points taken. I guess my main point was that it seemed relatively more realistic for the SGC to take 6-7 years to get a partially-functioning X-303 than it was for it get 4 fully-functioning 304s in only 3 years.

Was getting the Prometheus in S6 absolutely realistic? No, but I do think getting the 304s in S8-10 was even more unrealistic and required the writers to take a larger amount of dramatic license compared to the 303.

If they wanted a large fleet of ships it would have made more sense to steal Goa'uld ships. I recall there was a reason they didn't want to do that, but I can't remember

[Callista]

If they wanted a large fleet of ships it would have made more sense to steal Goa'uld ships. I recall there was a reason they didn't want to do that, but I can't remember

Maybe the price of gold paint went up that year?

[Gregorius]

Points taken. I guess my main point was that it seemed relatively more realistic for the SGC to take 6-7 years to get a partially-functioning X-303 than it was for it get 4 fully-functioning 304s in only 3 years.

Well, the thing is the your prototype works and passes all the tests then you can start mass producing (Aircraft assembly halls are huge). This is because in the aviation industry it's nearly always the case that the machines used to create the prototype(s) are also the machines you'll use to create the production model (Something to do with it being cheaper in a few ways, I could get into it but it would get boring). Although since the 304 was a new design based on the 303 I'd say that it's still very unrealistic.

What I don't get is why they only construct it in the USA. If it were me I'd build the construction facilities off-world where I can work in public and draw all the resources from multiple other off-world bases without running the risk of the secret leaking out to other countries such as Russia.

And on the topic of off-world bases, why on Earth would they keep the main connection hub on Earth? In the earlier seasons it made sense but after all those infiltrations and the replicators nearly taking over Earth, I would've moved the main base off-world to a site I can afford to lose should it even be taken over by a hostile force. It would've prevented a lot of the stuff that happened in S9 and S10.

Was getting the Prometheus in S6 absolutely realistic? No, but I do think getting the 304s in S8-10 was even more unrealistic and required the writers to take a larger amount of dramatic license compared to the 303.

Very true. The 304s caused a lot of the rot in the show. It's annoying how the Stargate got abandoned in favour of those - ugly, and for a battle cruise oddly designed - starships.

If they wanted a large fleet of ships it would have made more sense to steal Goa'uld ships. I recall there was a reason they didn't want to do that, but I can't remember

Steal Goa'uld ships, store the off-world and reverse engineer them there with the help of friendly alien civilization such as the Naquada generation one.

[suse]

It's odd to say this, but I think that SG-1 became to much of a "sci-fi" show. The beauty of it, was that even people who generally don't like "sci-fi", liked SG-1, because it was "the people next door being thrown into difficult situations, but not insurmountable." It wasn't all that different from other tv dramas, and while some suspension of belief was necessary, you felt like it could really be happening. As the series progressed, and especially into the Ori arc, it became more unbelievable, especially for those who are not used to the unbelievability of sci-fi.

Yeah, sci-fi requires a suspension of disbelief some cannot do.

S8/S10 required me to suspend not only my disbelief which isn't an issue because I love sci-fi in general, but to also forget the earlier season canon. And not just canon but character writing. I didn't mind them adding/tweaking what they already had - though I never bought the ships... not with the worldwide surveillance satellites - but the wholesale change... no.

[amconway]

S8/S10 required me to suspend not only my disbelief which isn't an issue because I love sci-fi in general, but to also forget the earlier season canon. And not just canon but character writing.

Where did seasons 8-10 contradict canon?
I disagree about the character writing, but I've heard enough of what's been said to know where you're going with that.

[suse]

Points taken. I guess my main point was that it seemed relatively more realistic for the SGC to take 6-7 years to get a partially-functioning X-303 than it was for it get 4 fully-functioning 304s in only 3 years.

Was getting the Prometheus in S6 absolutely realistic? No, but I do think getting the 304s in S8-10 was even more unrealistic and required the writers to take a larger amount of dramatic license compared to the 303.

Take a look at this:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...6287/index.htm

7 years

And this is for something that doesn't require gravity, O2, H2O reclamation... as well as a host of other things,

[suse]

Where did seasons 8-10 contradict canon?
I disagree about the character writing, but I've heard enough of what's been said to know where you're going with that.

I said forget, not contradict. They did that too though.

Neither Hammond or O'Neill would allow a person who never even saw the gate to lead a team - much less the flagship team - through the gate. Not with so many other trained personnel available.

As others noted they had steadily been losing the 'little team that could' status. In S9/S10 almost any conception of them getting out of the mess though their own ingenuity was gone. In 4th Horseman they needed Garrik to heal everyone - with a magic staff. In Ark of Truth they needed the Ark to change people's mind.

suse

[amconway]

I said forget, not contradict. They did that too though.

Neither Hammond or O'Neill would allow a person who never even saw the gate to lead a team - much less the flagship team - through the gate. Not with so many other trained personnel available.

As others noted they had steadily been losing the 'little team that could' status. In S9/S10 almost any conception of them getting out of the mess though their own ingenuity was gone. In 4th Horseman they needed Garrik to heal everyone - with a magic staff. In Ark of Truth they needed the Ark to change people's mind.

That's not actually canon. The first is a supposition, and the second is a matter of style.

[jckfan55]

I said forget, not contradict. They did that too though.

Neither Hammond or O'Neill would allow a person who never even saw the gate to lead a team - much less the flagship team - through the gate. Not with so many other trained personnel available.

As others noted they had steadily been losing the 'little team that could' status. In S9/S10 almost any conception of them getting out of the mess though their own ingenuity was gone. In 4th Horseman they needed Garrik to heal everyone - with a magic staff. In Ark of Truth they needed the Ark to change people's mind.

suse

That's not actually canon. The first is a supposition, and the second is a matter of style.

I would say the first is extrapolation. Based on what we know about Hammond and O'Neill over several seasons I agree with suse's statement.

[suse]

That's not actually canon. The first is a supposition, and the second is a matter of style.

Not supposition. Both actually stated that a leader with experience was desired. Hammond in Shades of Gray and O'Neill in... whatever that ep was.

What you call style I call canon. Obviously milage varies.

suse