S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Skydiver]

they are ofteen brought into an existing group. Felger could have been seen as a marty stu had he not been a bumbling idiot

Just about every character starts out OTT, but grow into the role and the show. With cam's case, they built him up to unsustainable levels and then wondered why we rolled our eyes and laughed.

the cmoh? crack pilot? special ops? given command of the flagship team when he'd never even set foot off the base? friends with sam?

it was just too much

[jckfan55]

TPTB made a big mistake in not letting us get to know him in a natural way. As for the special ops thing, I interpreted it as him having gone through the training after his accident when he was getting ready to join an SG team, but maybe that was wishful thinking on my part. If they had only referred to him having gone through training (and he wasn't such a loose cannon ) that would have made him more believable.
Before S9 started, I was ready to accept him *on* the team, but not as *leader.* And more so after we saw his singular lack of leadership ability.

[Skydiver]

yeah, i would have liked that. 'special ops' = 'they didn't cover that in the SGC off site training i took' or however that line came up.

let us know that, as an extension of the academy program, there is also training for those joining the SGC where they prove their mettle for a 'special program' before they even see the gate. And cameron, in training for his flight, learned about the sgc and took the training, then got shot down before he could transfer to the SGC and join a team.

they just crammed him down fans throats and got offended when some of us said 'dude, i need to know him better first '

[jckfan55]

Right. It would seem that any SG team member's training would have to include some version of special ops training b/c of the unique nature of their missions. I sort of took the training in Proving Ground to be a reference to that kind of thing.
O'Neill was already AF special ops & Sam (& Daniel) sort of learned on the job. They'd have us believed he sprung fully trained from the head of Zeus. Except he clearly wasn't.

[Mandysg1]

Right. It would seem that any SG team member's training would have to include some version of special ops training b/c of the unique nature of their missions. I sort of took the training in Proving Ground to be a reference to that kind of thing.
O'Neill was already AF special ops & Sam (& Daniel) sort of learned on the job. They'd have us believed he sprung fully trained from the head of Zeus. Except he clearly wasn't.

If it was that the training to be in the SGC included special ops, then why would he say it? It came out more as the writers trying to prove he was as good as O'Neill and throwing in the line to prove he should be there, even if they didn't show us he belonged.

[jckfan55]

If it was that the training to be in the SGC included special ops, then why would he say it? It came out more as the writers trying to prove he was as good as O'Neill and throwing in the line to prove he should be there, even if they didn't show us he belonged.

Right. We had no real sense that Mitchell had any training for ground operations whatsoever, until that line--which I'm inclined to believe came about b/c they realized they hadn't established his qualifications in any believable way.
But I think the training *should* include that.

[scifithinker]

They'd have us believed he sprung fully trained from the head of Zeus. Except he clearly wasn't.

Nice metaphor.

You, Colonel Mitchell, are no Athena!

[Jackie]

TPTB made a big mistake in not letting us get to know him in a natural way. As for the special ops thing, I interpreted it as him having gone through the training after his accident when he was getting ready to join an SG team, but maybe that was wishful thinking on my part. If they had only referred to him having gone through training (and he wasn't such a loose cannon ) that would have made him more believable.
Before S9 started, I was ready to accept him *on* the team, but not as *leader.* And more so after we saw his singular lack of leadership ability.

yeah, i would have liked that. 'special ops' = 'they didn't cover that in the SGC off site training i took' or however that line came up.

let us know that, as an extension of the academy program, there is also training for those joining the SGC where they prove their mettle for a 'special program' before they even see the gate. And cameron, in training for his flight, learned about the sgc and took the training, then got shot down before he could transfer to the SGC and join a team.

they just crammed him down fans throats and got offended when some of us said 'dude, i need to know him better first '

If it was that the training to be in the SGC included special ops, then why would he say it? It came out more as the writers trying to prove he was as good as O'Neill and throwing in the line to prove he should be there, even if they didn't show us he belonged.

Right. We had no real sense that Mitchell had any training for ground operations whatsoever, until that line--which I'm inclined to believe came about b/c they realized they hadn't established his qualifications in any believable way.
But I think the training *should* include that.

Air Force has it's own sp ops...commandos or air force special tactics. Akin to the navy seals, green berets(airborne), army rangers, marines recon units.

As for "gate sp ops training" I would expect anyone assigned to these teams would have to be from of branch special forces training to even be considered for a gate team. Then complete even more training for off world situations to be even cleared for a team. Then, assigned to a team...under another commander. Go through a probationary period of support roles and then finally clear for front line.

Mitchell had none of that. He just showed up, said..."I deserved this for getting my butt shot down" ...in not so many words....and then looked upon the gate for the first "dramatic" time. Awe, he touches it. *barf*

Then, as the show progressed someone said...Hmm, better give him a few lines to indicate training for this, huh?

To me...he had nothing and should never, ever been given command much less command of sg-1.

Ya don't throw an EMT in training in the back of the rig without supervision. Why on earth would he get command...if he never set foot off world before?

tptb were so worried about making sure their hewo "deserved" sg-1 they never thought about what a person would really have to go through to get on such a covenant team.

Granted, tptb for Stargate do a lot of 'duh' moments with common sense...like having the head of department...Carter, Daniel, ect...going off world in the first place but Mitchell and his lack of leadership and training blew every 'duh' moment before off the map.

I half expected Mitchell to be on the phone, calling "uncle Jack" to get him in good with everyone after he screwed the mission up. His character would have worked great if he was a whinny, under qualified, pain that got into the SGC and landed SG-1 through Uncle Jack or Uncle Hank. But...shot down and "earned" it...nah.

Sorry, but one line couldn't save that big boo-boo the writer's made.

[gateraid]

oh yeah...not only was he an ace pilot but also...a commando...lol. The only thing missing from Marty Mitchell was the arm candy. Vala was busy with Daniel. TPTB did some minor hinting with Sam and Mitchell....I am truly surprised tptb didn't completely throw Sam's character out the window and have her fall for the newbie after he heoically runs through a blazing wall of fire and saves her with motuh to mouth rescue breathing.

I obviously don't follow. Is your issue that he *is* these things, or that he *isn't* believable as those things? That description doesn't sound too different from O'Neill, and yet I wouldn't call him a Marty Stu. How was O'Neill credible as someone who could seemingly fly anything (yet spent hardly any time practicing by, ya know, actually flying) was quite insubordinate yet had the respect of everyone in authority. And if not then those people were evil. Plus he had the fastest promotion from 1 to 2 stars in history.

Mitchell wasn't very well written (IMO of course). To me, he never seemed credible as someone who would walk in and takeover SG1 (Reynolds??) without any real experience. The career path that he had been on previously (in the 302 programme) would make it more likely he would become a 304 commander (also, not credible) than the leader of a 4/5 person stargate team. And the flagship team no less.

I didn't have a problem with his being pilot, commando..... etc. As I said earlier it's a conceit of television that everyone is good at everything. I did have a problem with him not being written in a credible matter

EDIT: Look above, Jackie said it better
They obviously didn't learn from the character's hash of an introduction, as they made a similar attempt with Keller on SGA

[Skydiver]

see, that would have been interesting too...had mitch been the 'golden child' of the IOA, put onto the team and is suspected to be a spy/plant. But while mitch's 'sugar daddy' might have gotten him put there with ulterior motives, mitch, in reality, isn't a bad guy and eventually turns on his 'sugar daddy' to do the right thing, thus giving some conflict and giving mitch some depth and character

And that would have even worked with Major Mitchell. let him be younger than Sam. this whole neanderthal idea of 'male lead must be the boss of all' idea doomed mitchell

[Jackie]

see, that would have been interesting too...had mitch been the 'golden child' of the IOA, put onto the team and is suspected to be a spy/plant. But while mitch's 'sugar daddy' might have gotten him put there with ulterior motives, mitch, in reality, isn't a bad guy and eventually turns on his 'sugar daddy' to do the right thing, thus giving some conflict and giving mitch some depth and character

And that would have even worked with Major Mitchell. let him be younger than Sam. this whole neanderthal idea of 'male lead must be the boss of all' idea doomed mitchell

Mitchell as a real screw up with Uncle George, Dick or Harry keeping him there would have been far better than what we got.

Especially if Daniel and Teal'c both saw him as taking command away from Sam and thus..demoting her. The character would have made a great spoiled brat, who only wanted the team for the title, then got himself into hot water and realized SG-1 really was a tough team to be on and even harder to survive.

I think eh should have died...at least once...and then re-examined his standing in his own little world. I would have liked to have seen him evolve from an un-deserving to a deserving.

Then...there's Vala.......

[scifithinker]

Air Force has it's own sp ops...commandos or air force special tactics. Akin to the navy seals, green berets(airborne), army rangers, marines recon units.

As for "gate sp ops training" I would expect anyone assigned to these teams would have to be from of branch special forces training to even be considered for a gate team. Then complete even more training for off world situations to be even cleared for a team. Then, assigned to a team...under another commander. Go through a probationary period of support roles and then finally clear for front line.

<snip>

Sorry, but one line couldn't save that big boo-boo the writer's made.

I disagree with the idea that everyone would have to be special ops to get on a team. The number of people with that training is just too small, even if you don't limit your choices to just the Air Force and the Marines. It would also rule out any recruits from the Air Force Academy, and we know they didn't do that because of the episode when SG-1 trains Grogan, Satterfield, Hailey and Elliott. ("Proving Ground"?) I would expect that SGC training would have special ops-type elements in it as well as offworld training.

The throwaway line that would have made a difference for me in my perception of Mitchell is not that he was special forces but that he had trained with another SGC team before taking command of SG-1.

[Jackie]

I disagree with the idea that everyone would have to be special ops to get on a team. The number of people with that training is just too small, even if you don't limit your choices to just the Air Force and the Marines. It would also rule out any recruits from the Air Force Academy, and we know they didn't do that because of the episode when SG-1 trains Grogan, Satterfield, Hailey and Elliott. ("Proving Ground"?) I would expect that SGC training would have special ops-type elements in it as well as offworld training.

The throwaway line that would have made a difference for me in my perception of Mitchell is not that he was special forces but that he had trained with another SGC team before taking command of SG-1.

Proving Ground aside...I always thought that ep was out of the norm anyways. Name one single "military" entity that would be sending "teams" into hostile territory that have not gone through military regulated operations training. I cannot see the US military sending the kinds from "Proving Ground" through an actual gate without further training.

further training would include training found in special operations. (swat teams receive special ops training too). Basic combat is just the first step. I'm not talking sniper school here guys. Advanced level training--that's all. Rangers are advanced level, seals (though one of the hardest) are advanced level, green beret is now airborne, these groups are not as limited in size as you believe. I'm talking the whole group...which includes more than just "Rambo." Even coast guards have special operations teams...but those are more police oriented.

I can see, sending specialist with teams, however the basic security of that team should be special op personnel or have equivalent training.

So, if the IOA ran the gate..yes they could employ swat teams as sg teams.

[jckfan55]

I disagree with the idea that everyone would have to be special ops to get on a team. The number of people with that training is just too small, even if you don't limit your choices to just the Air Force and the Marines. It would also rule out any recruits from the Air Force Academy, and we know they didn't do that because of the episode when SG-1 trains Grogan, Satterfield, Hailey and Elliott. ("Proving Ground"?) I would expect that SGC training would have special ops-type elements in it as well as offworld training.

The throwaway line that would have made a difference for me in my perception of Mitchell is not that he was special forces but that he had trained with another SGC team before taking command of SG-1.

Proving Ground aside...I always thought that ep was out of the norm anyways. Name one single "military" entity that would be sending "teams" into hostile territory that have not gone through military regulated operations training. I cannot see the US military sending the kinds from "Proving Ground" through an actual gate without further training.

further training would include training found in special operations. (swat teams receive special ops training too). Basic combat is just the first step. I'm not talking sniper school here guys. Advanced level training--that's all. Rangers are advanced level, seals (though one of the hardest) are advanced level, green beret is now airborne, these groups are not as limited in size as you believe. I'm talking the whole group...which includes more than just "Rambo." Even coast guards have special operations teams...but those are more police oriented.

I can see, sending specialist with teams, however the basic security of that team should be special op personnel or have equivalent training.

So, if the IOA ran the gate..yes they could employ swat teams as sg teams.

Although we've never seen it, in thinking about it, I would expect all SG teams to go through some kind of special op training even if they didn't come from the special op background. The Proving Ground episode really did focus on "off world situation" training, so that might be in addition to the other advanced training.
Bottom line is, they never really explained in the show what kind of training teams had. (Again, SG1 is special by the nature of them starting the program). The Mitchell "special ops" line was nausea inducing to me b/c of the hard sell & the way his "good at everything" minimized the original team.
Each of the SG1 members was unbelievable expert, if you thought about it, but none diminished the others.

And for the record--it did annoy me that Jack suddenly was a pilot. And Sam too. Not all AF officers are pilots. And I love both Sam and Jack. I can deal with it though, because it allows for certain story elements & neither is like "whoo hoo, look at me! I'm a cool pilot!"

[Jackie]

And for the record--it did annoy me that Jack suddenly was a pilot. And Sam too. Not all AF officers are pilots. And I love both Sam and Jack. I can deal with it though, because it allows for certain story elements & neither is like "whoo hoo, look at me! I'm a cool pilot!"

The show is noted for suddenly making the character have a secret talent...lol.

Yes, Jack doesn't strike me as "pilot" material either. However, I live near a small private airport that does offer flight school and I did look into what I would have to go through for flight school. (of course this is civilian prop engine plane)

It would cost me $3,500 dollars in total. Would require a physical (which i couldn't pass) hours of ground school and flight time. Then hours of solo flights and night flights before I could get my license would take anywhere from 6 months to a year. So, I ended up taking a sewing course instead.

Commercial license was offered too but that would be added time and expense.

I suppose it would be possible for Jack and Sam to have taken pilot's courses earlier on in their careers but they wouldn't have been flying very much...due to the program and career path.

What get's me is Sheppard....the SGA marty stu. He was recruited by jack cause he could out fly a drone in a chopper. However, he never had special ops trainig before and Jack wouldn't have known about the puddle jumpers on Atlantis at the time. Then...on top of the drone, he just sits down in a chair that Jack could only control while downloaded with the anceint knowledge and just starts playing with everything.

Practicllly made shep into an ancient right off the bat. A few eps he just sits down in a cockpit of something he's never flown before...nor knows how to operate and suddenly..poof...he's flying it. LOL

Then, there is Daniel. Who started out speaking just about every known language on planet earth. Within 2 seasons he was speaking every known language on earth plus other planets.

Sam...went from basic geeky scientis too...pilot, command, doctor, you name it...she can do it. LOL

Poor Teal'c...he just became the intergalactic dictionary/muscle man.

Then there is Rodney McKay. Another Carter type scientist who has so far managed to save all of atlantis every week all by himself...lol.

yep, tptb are very consistent at inconsistency.