S10: Critique & Contemplation

[Skydiver]

part of the 'magic' i think is that it was simply allowed to happen...it wasn't forced and crammed down your throat every other episode.

don't tell me that they're friends, let me see it and then i'll believe it

[suse]

part of the 'magic' i think is that it was simply allowed to happen...it wasn't forced and crammed down your throat every other episode.

don't tell me that they're friends, let me see it and then i'll believe it

Yep. Too much of S9 was forced. S10 tried to fix the worst bits, but by then the damage permanent (to me).

Every time I think about it I hear Londo (from B5) say "Great Maker, I need a drink." in that crazy accent.

suse

[Fresh_Horse]

Yep. Too much of S9 was forced. S10 tried to fix the worst bits, but by then the damage permanent (to me).

Every time I think about it I hear Londo (from B5) say "Great Maker, I need a drink." in that crazy accent.

suse

Funny, I see him standing on Centauri Prime looking up at the Shadow ships flying overhead and thinking "What have I done?"

[suse]

Funny, I see him standing on Centauri Prime looking up at the Shadow ships flying overhead and thinking "What have I done?"

ROFL

suse

[Gregorius]

Yep. Too much of S9 was forced. S10 tried to fix the worst bits, but by then the damage permanent (to me).

Every time I think about it I hear Londo (from B5) say "Great Maker, I need a drink." in that crazy accent.

suse

I think this B5 quote is also fitting:

Elric: Well, take this for what little it will profit you. As I look at you, Ambassador Mollari, I see a great hand reaching out of the stars. The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds–the sounds of billions of people calling your name.
Londo: My followers?
Elric: Your victims.

[suse]

<<wanders in from SAGC>>

Stuff was mentioned about frat regs and those in charge coming down on Cam should Vala do something (not sexual, but use that whatever relationship they have to incapacitate) Daniel. Cam would be would (??) be held responsible for not reining them in and Daniel a bit for vouching for her.

Pardon me... I still have issues with comparing Vala to Teal'c. Grrrrrrrr.

I wish she had betrayed them. It would have made for better/more in keeping with her character storytelling. Because her suddenly being a team player - except for the "treasure" jokes - didn't ring true. To me, she was obviously retrofitted to work with the team. Except... It didn't work for the team.

Bah. They'd have found some way to blame it on Sam anyway. "Don't you girl types bond and talk a lot? Why didn't you notice she was doing to betray us?"

<sigh>

suse

[Jackie]

<<wanders in from SAGC>>

Stuff was mentioned about frat regs and those in charge coming down on Cam should Vala do something (not sexual, but use that whatever relationship they have to incapacitate) Daniel. Cam would be would (??) be held responsible for not reining them in and Daniel a bit for vouching for her.

Pardon me... I still have issues with comparing Vala to Teal'c. Grrrrrrrr.

I wish she had betrayed them. It would have made for better/more in keeping with her character storytelling. Because her suddenly being a team player - except for the "treasure" jokes - didn't ring true. To me, she was obviously retrofitted to work with the team. Except... It didn't work for the team.

Bah. They'd have found some way to blame it on Sam anyway. "Don't you girl types bond and talk a lot? Why didn't you notice she was doing to betray us?"

<sigh>

suse

The forced bonding between Vala and Sam made me want to vomit. In all honesty, I saw more bonding between the two actresses than the characters.

The biggest mistake next to a boring bad guy was brining in CB as Vala. The best thing tptb could have done to keep cb full time was cast her as a different character all together.

Why bring her back as a character that you need to drasitcally retool in order to fit. Might as well just make a new character up that would wokr better.

After all tptb were counting on CB to attack fans and not Vala...if they were counting on Vala to attract fans they wouldn't have changed her so much.

They were determined to put CB on the team. At the same time, toptb were determined to put Mitchell on the team but not have them share much screen time due to their farscape days. Next major mistake. Take away one of the reasons people would watch the show...to see BB and CB in scenes together. CB and BB...even as different characters...still act like a little old married couple.

If tptb wanted CB to play a fun, carefree addition to the team they should have cast her as such...from season 9. Then have the character go missing and return later with a bit more maturity.

Moving Sam to SGA in season 9 would have made season 4 more acceptable for many fans, for Carter would have already been there. Maybe have Sam there as Rodney's boss and actually given Sam real bonding time with Wier. I would have liked to have seen Sam and Wier work together...might even have helped keep Wier.

If Sam was on SGA with a few Jack specials and the Daniel special it would have help boost the spin of series, given Sam a firmer footing and helped really pass the torch IMO.

[atfan]

Certain fans are like that as well. MS can leave and come back and it's no problem. RDA wants to come back and it's the end of the world. In a way I can understand it. RDA brings back memories when Jack was the star and the show was a hit and it touches a nerve for certain fans.

I think that is true to a certain extent but even Daniel was changed when he returned and the relationship with Sam such a part of the early show was non-exsistent.

RDA & the character of Jack was a big part of what worked about the show. But the original 4 just had a chemistry that you can't duplicate. Not to mention the fact that the writers didn't have to write in lines like "he's part of this family" and stuff like that to convince us that the characters' had a bond with each other. It grew and developed over time.

I agree plus RDA was also part of the production team so the loss was even greater. Am I hearing right RDA wanted to come back but they said no or something? What a huge mistake.

<<wanders in from SAGC>>

Stuff was mentioned about frat regs and those in charge coming down on Cam should Vala do something (not sexual, but use that whatever relationship they have to incapacitate) Daniel. Cam would be would (??) be held responsible for not reining them in and Daniel a bit for vouching for her.

Pardon me... I still have issues with comparing Vala to Teal'c. Grrrrrrrr.

I wish she had betrayed them. It would have made for better/more in keeping with her character storytelling. Because her suddenly being a team player - except for the "treasure" jokes - didn't ring true. To me, she was obviously retrofitted to work with the team. Except... It didn't work for the team.

Bah. They'd have found some way to blame it on Sam anyway. "Don't you girl types bond and talk a lot? Why didn't you notice she was doing to betray us?"

<sigh>

suse

I think the main problem with Vala she was originally written as a guest star come in make a big impact then leave but instead they tried to make her part of the team in season ten which didn't work for me I would have bought it more if they would have had her be stuck on earth temporarily and help SG-1 with the Ori similar to how Jacob and Bratak were utilized. When they tried to tone down Vala and make her less abrasive and thief-like it distroyed the original and didn't work. Seems to me Sam got it the worst given her storyline they should have just made her TAD to area 51 and then when she came back there would have been no questions about her retaking her place as leader of SG-1. Instead they tried to do the co-command thing which was stupid and would never work in a combat situation orders must be followed and someone must give orders not two people it doesn't work.
Cam on the other hand is not a bad character, the problem came when TPTB decided to make him lead of SG-1 without any combat or off-world experience. To me it would have made more sense to have him be in a training situation with Jack or someone else for awhile and when Sam was recalled have her be in charge of SG-1. They distroyed the team in season nine having the D/V show and Tea'c was sort of just there and Cam was just clueless not a team in any stretch of the imagination. Besides going against the established canon of the show Proving Ground,Shades of Grey and others showing training and how hard it was to actually be assigned to an SGC team.

In the end does anyone think that just maybe they were intentionally trying to alienate the fans and force cancellation because 2 productions was too expensive for the network?

[Jackie]

I agree plus RDA was also part of the production team so the loss was even greater. Am I hearing right RDA wanted to come back but they said no or something? What a huge mistake.

In the end does anyone think that just maybe they were intentionally trying to alienate the fans and force cancellation because 2 productions was too expensive for the network?

I never heard that. I heard that RDA expected to be in SG-1 more than he was in season 9 and 10 but never he was told not to come back. If anything, tptb should be begging him to come back and save their hind ends.

I don't think the alienation is intentional. I think tptb are so far out of touch with the fan base that what they think is fun, cool, hip and humorous is just distasteful to the majority.

TPTB almost seem shocked by certain fan reaction. Like Lucius in Irresistible. TPTB intended for him to be likable and an irritating lush. Instead fans hated him and revealed he was guilty of date rape. In my own generation "date rape" was a term hardly ever heard. TPTB are from that generation where you only "really" drug someone if you put it in their drink. Also, it's the same generation that grew up in the shadows of the hippies and drugs back then were thought off as "fun and hip." people for most part thought drugs were harmless and everyone wanted to get high.

Times have changed so much that an ep that would have been looked upon as "fun and hip" in the 70's or 80's is now looked upon as distasteful and low. Fans are not out to get high and date rape is a real issue. TPTB seem to be writing for another time frame IMO.

Same can be said for Miller's Crossing in SGA. It took Shep so far out of the norm and threw out the "officer and a gentelman" regulations that tptb used to pride themselves on.

I can't help but wonder how that ep would have panned out if RDA and Gekko were in charge and looking at the finished project.

[atfan]

I never heard that. I heard that RDA expected to be in SG-1 more than he was in season 9 and 10 but never he was told not to come back. If anything, tptb should be begging him to come back and save their hind ends.

I don't think the alienation is intentional. I think tptb are so far out of touch with the fan base that what they think is fun, cool, hip and humorous is just distasteful to the majority.

TPTB almost seem shocked by certain fan reaction. Like Lucius in Irresistible. TPTB intended for him to be likable and an irritating lush. Instead fans hated him and revealed he was guilty of date rape. In my own generation "date rape" was a term hardly ever heard. TPTB are from that generation where you only "really" drug someone if you put it in their drink. Also, it's the same generation that grew up in the shadows of the hippies and drugs back then were thought off as "fun and hip." people for most part thought drugs were harmless and everyone wanted to get high.

Times have changed so much that an ep that would have been looked upon as "fun and hip" in the 70's or 80's is now looked upon as distasteful and low. Fans are not out to get high and date rape is a real issue. TPTB seem to be writing for another time frame IMO.

Same can be said for Miller's Crossing in SGA. It took Shep so far out of the norm and threw out the "officer and a gentelman" regulations that tptb used to pride themselves on.

I can't help but wonder how that ep would have panned out if RDA and Gekko were in charge and looking at the finished project.

I agree some people even look at Brief Candle and say Jack was raped as well.
The Lucius thing was more than just date rape in essence he was like a Goa'uld they had no free will with the drug. As for Miller's Crossing I agree sacraficing a human any human was wrong and that Carter was in charge and not even seen on screen for that episode made it worse like he did it w/o her knowing it and that is just wrong on a whole other level but then look at the whole FRAN thing just glossed over in SGA BAMSR.

Instead of real and believable we get it is just Sci-Fi get over it - no what I love about SG-1 and Stargate is it's moral codes and equality. Now it just doesn't seem to matter as long as the plot progresses. Kindler was right to leave when he did. What happened to Gekko?

[jckfan55]

Pardon me... I still have issues with comparing Vala to Teal'c. Grrrrrrrr.

Me too! They dealt with Teal'c past as First Prime and didn't make pillaging into "fun." I recently watched "Cor'ai" and I have to say, though they made a good case for Teal'c being a changed man, they didn't shy away from the fact that TEal'c did horrible things, and could be considered a war criminal.

I wish she had betrayed them. It would have made for better/more in keeping with her character storytelling. Because her suddenly being a team player - except for the "treasure" jokes - didn't ring true. To me, she was obviously retrofitted to work with the team. Except... It didn't work for the team.

Bah. They'd have found some way to blame it on Sam anyway. "Don't you girl types bond and talk a lot? Why didn't you notice she was doing to betray us?"

<sigh>

suse

True. I think she would have made a much better periodic enemy than a team member, but then I guess we'd have to have had less of the Bori. Like RCC would go for that.

The forced bonding between Vala and Sam made me want to vomit. In all honesty, I saw more bonding between the two actresses than the characters.

Me too. They cut out the one Vala-Sam scene where Sam offers to be someone Vala can talk to--which would have been kind of in character actually for Sam. (If you get past the whole accepting a criminal into the SGC thing.)
The least forced moments for me were when Vala patted Sam on the back in the Quest & hugged her in The Road not Taken & those were actually added by the actresses, not in the script.

I think the main problem with Vala she was originally written as a guest star come in make a big impact then leave but instead they tried to make her part of the team in season ten which didn't work for me I would have bought it more if they would have had her be stuck on earth temporarily and help SG-1 with the Ori similar to how Jacob and Bratak were utilized.

Yep, me too.

I don't think the alienation is intentional. I think tptb are so far out of touch with the fan base that what they think is fun, cool, hip and humorous is just distasteful to the majority...

TPTB almost seem shocked by certain fan reaction. Like Lucius in Irresistible. TPTB intended for him to be likable and an irritating lush. Instead fans hated him and revealed he was guilty of date rape....
I can't help but wonder how that ep would have panned out if RDA and Gekko were in charge and looking at the finished project.

Never would've happened.

[jckfan55]

Pardon me... I still have issues with comparing Vala to Teal'c. Grrrrrrrr.

Me too! They dealt with Teal'c past as First Prime and didn't make pillaging into "fun." I recently watched "Cor'ai" and I have to say, though they made a good case for Teal'c being a changed man, they didn't shy away from the fact that TEal'c did horrible things, and could be considered a war criminal.

I wish she had betrayed them. It would have made for better/more in keeping with her character storytelling. Because her suddenly being a team player - except for the "treasure" jokes - didn't ring true. To me, she was obviously retrofitted to work with the team. Except... It didn't work for the team.

Bah. They'd have found some way to blame it on Sam anyway. "Don't you girl types bond and talk a lot? Why didn't you notice she was doing to betray us?"

<sigh>

suse

True. I think she would have made a much better periodic enemy than a team member, but then I guess we'd have to have had less of the Bori. Like RCC would go for that.

The forced bonding between Vala and Sam made me want to vomit. In all honesty, I saw more bonding between the two actresses than the characters.

Me too. They cut out the one Vala-Sam scene where Sam offers to be someone Vala can talk to--which would have been kind of in character actually for Sam. (If you get past the whole accepting a criminal into the SGC thing.)
The least forced moments for me were when Vala patted Sam on the back in the Quest & hugged her in The Road not Taken & those were actually added by the actresses, not in the script.

I think the main problem with Vala she was originally written as a guest star come in make a big impact then leave but instead they tried to make her part of the team in season ten which didn't work for me I would have bought it more if they would have had her be stuck on earth temporarily and help SG-1 with the Ori similar to how Jacob and Bratak were utilized.

Yep, me too.

I don't think the alienation is intentional. I think tptb are so far out of touch with the fan base that what they think is fun, cool, hip and humorous is just distasteful to the majority...

TPTB almost seem shocked by certain fan reaction. Like Lucius in Irresistible. TPTB intended for him to be likable and an irritating lush. Instead fans hated him and revealed he was guilty of date rape....
I can't help but wonder how that ep would have panned out if RDA and Gekko were in charge and looking at the finished project.

Never would've happened.

[Jackie]

Me too. They cut out the one Vala-Sam scene where Sam offers to be someone Vala can talk to--which would have been kind of in character actually for Sam. (If you get past the whole accepting a criminal into the SGC thing.)
The least forced moments for me were when Vala patted Sam on the back in the Quest & hugged her in The Road not Taken & those were actually added by the actresses, not in the script.

I hated that scene. I can see it being added in by CB, from the behind the scene shots her and AT were close. But, for Sam and Vala...I would expect Vala to pick Sam's pocket.

I would expect Sam to reinforce "no hugging while on duty" stand.

Through all of season 10 I kept expecting Vala to steal something from someone and go back to being a thief. To double cross them because SG-1 started to look like a bunch of sucker marks to me.

Vala as the unpredictable outsider would have worked much better if she had betrayed them.

Instead we got Sam and Vala going shopping...blah...barf...puke.

Make Vala interesting by having her accidently buy narcotics in front of Wal Mart and end up in jail with with some real scum bags that make her truly look like an angel.

Of course, Vala really doesn't fit no matter what you do to her...unless she's the unpredictable crook.

[jckfan55]

I hated that scene. I can see it being added in by CB, from the behind the scene shots her and AT were close. But, for Sam and Vala...I would expect Vala to pick Sam's pocket.

I would expect Sam to reinforce "no hugging while on duty" stand.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I thought it was kind of sweet. I think in the commentary AT said CB just did it. Sam was a bit taken aback. LOL on Vala picking Sam's pocket--good point. Of course, the hug would have made a lot more sense if we had any inkling that Sam & Vala had ever even *talked* before. I mean they had next to zero interaction most of the season.

Instead we got Sam and Vala going shopping...blah...barf...puke.

Yeah, that was retch worthy all right. Talk about forced. My eyes were rolling so much I thought they'd roll out of my head.

[atfan]

I can't help but wonder how that ep would have panned out if RDA and Gekko were in charge and looking at the finished project.

Did RDA have control over Atlantis as well?

I liked some of the Vala moments in Family Ties the shopping scene was cute and didn't seemed forced plus it was in character for Sam who took Cassie shopping with Janet.

I think they tried too hard to make Vala not a serious thief when in reality she stole the Prometheus hello not a minor pick-pocket more like a Mafia type if you ask me. We are supposed to feel sorry for her because of Quetesh but she left the Tokr'a she didn't stay to fight the Goa'uld she just left. She managed to trick Daniel again and then because of one thing, her sacrefice in Beachead we are supposed to love her. I would have rather they kept her a little edgy maybe defensive instead of making her into Daniels playmate in season ten yuck and did I mention yuck talk about no chemistry on screen heck BB and CB had better chemistry and made more sense IMHO.

The worst part they took the natural chemistry of AT and MS and ruined it in favor of D/V ship. I am not an D/S shipper but the science twins were fun to watch bouncing ideas off each other both incredibly smart and yet they were in tune with each other in ways even S/J weren't. Granted some liked the over the top flirting and sexual inuendos but to me it was worse than nails on a chalkboard.