Bloodlines (111)

[amconway]

But those larval Goa'uld have done absolutely nothing but swim around in that tank. They do present a danger, but one that can be managed without resorting to killing them all, IMO. That treads far too close to genocide for me to be comfortable with.

And since they themselves haven't done anything evil yet, then yes I believe they have a right to life just like any other sentient being.

Stepping outside what the characters know, for just a second, these Goa'uld are inherently evil. There's a big difference between them and humans or Jaffa. They are inately corrupt, so while they haven't done anything evil, they are evil. I would argue that fact makes the decision about what to do with them entirely unique.
I fear that we're going in circles at this point, though. I'm pretty darn sure we've covered this ground before. I recognize that tree...

[EvenstarSRV]

Stepping outside what the characters know, for just a second, these Goa'uld are inherently evil. There's a big difference between them and humans or Jaffa. They are inately corrupt, so while they haven't done anything evil, they are evil. I would argue that fact makes the decision about what to do with them entirely unique.
I fear that we're going in circles at this point, though. I'm pretty darn sure we've covered this ground before. I recognize that tree...

Then I guess the main problem is I'm not convinced that symbiotes are inherently evil. Somehow one of them chose to become something different, to oppose the ways of the System lords and from Egeria came the other Tok'ra.

If one symbiote could essentially change it's mind like that, I believe others could do the same. As rare as it may be, there's some potential for good in a symbiote, which means they are not wholly evil.

[amconway]

Then I guess the main problem is I'm not convinced that symbiotes are inherently evil. Somehow one of them chose to become something different, to oppose the ways of the System lords and from Egeria came the other Tok'ra.

If one symbiote could essentially change it's mind like that, I believe others could do the same. As rare as it may be, there's some potential for good in a symbiote, which means they are not wholly evil.

Well, that's one, in the entire history of the Goa'uld--millions of them over, well, a long time. That makes it so rare an occurance as to be virtually impossible. Frankly, I think that was a bit of sketchy writing, that a Goa'uld, as corrupted as the rest of them ( and unique in their history) would up and decide they were being nasty. I don't buy it, but I have to because it's canon. It wasn't adequately explained though. Anyway, the odds are infinitesimally small, way too small to be significant, and given that her offspring are entirely devoted to killing their brethren, I don't see that as an issue.
It's also important to note that as the Tok'ra have no genetic memory, and don't use the sarcophagus, none of them were faced with the same choice and went for 'good', so the Tok'ra can't be used as an example of potential Goa'uld behavior. They're an abheration from everything that the Goa'uld are.

[EvenstarSRV]

Well, that's one, in the entire history of the Goa'uld--millions of them over, well, a long time. That makes it so rare an occurance as to be virtually impossible. Frankly, I think that was a bit of sketchy writing, that a Goa'uld, as corrupted as the rest of them ( and unique in their history) would up and decide they were being nasty. I don't buy it, but I have to because it's canon. It wasn't adequately explained though. Anyway, the odds are infinitesimally small, way too small to be significant, and given that her offspring are entirely devoted to killing their brethren, I don't see that as an issue.
It's also important to note that as the Tok'ra have no genetic memory, and don't use the sarcophagus, none of them were faced with the same choice and went for 'good', so the Tok'ra can't be used as an example of potential Goa'uld behavior. They're an abheration from everything that the Goa'uld are.

But it is canon that, for whatever reason, Egeria did decide to oppose the System Lords and passed those traits on to her offspring, which suggests some type of genetic memory to me. IMO, it happened once so it could happen again.

Also, we've seen Tok'ra revert to Goa'uld-like behavior, Jolinar in ITLOD, but then make the conscious choice to make-up for their errors and do good, Jolinar giving up her life for Sam. I would say the Tok'ra's existence is a good case against the symbiotes themselves being inherently corrupt, because then wouldn't they be just as evil and bent on enslaving the galaxy as the Goa'uld?

We've even seen a System Lord as evil as Ba'al make the choice to collaborate with the Tau'ri in order to do something good, rid the galaxy of the Replicators. This doesn't mean that Ba'al isn't a bad guy, but apparently his symbiote did have the potential to do good, albeit on a short-term basis.

[amconway]

But it is canon that, for whatever reason, Egeria did decide to oppose the System Lords and passed those traits on to her offspring, which suggests some type of genetic memory to me. IMO, it happened once so it could happen again.

No, what she passed on was the lack of genetic memory.

Also, we've seen Tok'ra revert to Goa'uld-like behavior, Jolinar in ITLOD, but then make the conscious choice to make-up for their errors and do good, Jolinar giving up her life for Sam. I would say the Tok'ra's existence is a good case against the symbiotes themselves being inherently corrupt, because then wouldn't they be just as evil and bent on enslaving the galaxy as the Goa'uld?

The Tok'ra don't have genetic memory, making them not inherently corrupt. What I was saying about them is that because they don't have genetic memory, they never had to make the choice, like Egeria did, making her the only Goa'uld to have made such a choice, so they can't be used as an example of normal Goa'uld being able to choose. Egeria is still the only exception. I think that makes it so unlikely as to be practically impossible.

We've even seen a System Lord as evil as Ba'al make the choice to collaborate with the Tau'ri in order to do something good, rid the galaxy of the Replicators. This doesn't mean that Ba'al isn't a bad guy, but apparently his symbiote did have the potential to do good, albeit on a short-term basis.

Ba'al made a strategic decision for his own benefit. 'Good' didn't enter into it.

[EvenstarSRV]

No, what she passed on was the lack of genetic memory.

She did that intentionally in the Cure to sabotage the Pangaran's efforts to make tretonin. But the Tok'ra that came from her, Jolinar, Garshaw, Lantash, etc held her beliefs about the Goa'uld, so she must have passed something unique to her offspring, something like a genetic memory different from that of other Goa'uld.

The Tok'ra don't have genetic memory, making them not inherently corrupt. What I was saying about them is that because they don't have genetic memory, they never had to make the choice, like Egeria did, making her the only Goa'uld to have made such a choice, so they can't be used as an example of normal Goa'uld being able to choose. Egeria is still the only exception. I think that makes it so unlikely as to be practically impossible.

I still feel choices like the ones Jolinar made can be used as an example. In ITLOD, at first Jolinar made a fairly instinctual choice for Goa'uld symbiotes, she took an unwilling host, completely controlled her, and used her for its own interests.

But by the end of the episode, Jolinar made a conscious choice to give up her life for Sam's, something that is not instinctual for symbiotes who would usually release toxins into their host while dying. That suggests to me that the symbiote had the potential for both good and evil, it simply depended on which instincts it chose to act on.

Ba'al made a strategic decision for his own benefit. 'Good' didn't enter into it.

It was for his own benefit, but IMO, it doesn't change the fact that his actions were for the 'good' of the galaxy, as defined by the Tau'ri of course. SG-1 is shown many times making strategic decisions for their own benefit, and whether they are considered good or evil often depends on your perspective.

In Rite of Passage, the decision to let Nirrti go was a strategic one for SG-1's own benefit, to save Cassie, but ultimately it resulted in the deaths of many innocents in Metamorphosis. So was it good or bad or perhaps somewhere in between?

[amconway]

But the Tok'ra that came from her, Jolinar, Garshaw, Lantash, etc held her beliefs about the Goa'uld, so she must have passed something unique to her offspring, something like a genetic memory different from that of other Goa'uld.

I'm sure that it was mentioned that the Tok'ra are offspring who didn't get the genetic memory. I may be wrong about that, but I'm really pretty sure. If that is the case, then Jolinar can't be used as an example.
Edit: I remember what it was now... She withheld all genetic memory from the symbiotes the were being used for the drug, but she selectively chose the memory for the Tok'ra. She basically created them to fight the Goa'uld.

It was for his own benefit, but IMO, it doesn't change the fact that his actions were for the 'good' of the galaxy, as defined by the Tau'ri of course. SG-1 is shown many times making strategic decisions for their own benefit, and whether they are considered good or evil often depends on your perspective.

In Rite of Passage, the decision to let Nirrti go was a strategic one for SG-1's own benefit, to save Cassie, but ultimately it resulted in the deaths of many innocents in Metamorphosis. So was it good or bad or perhaps somewhere in between?

I think intent matters-a lot. If one does good by accident or in the process of achieving another goal, it's just a lucky accident, not a willful desire to do the right thing. If something bad happens as a result of an attempt to do good, you get credit for trying, however much the results might be less than ideal.

[EvenstarSRV]

I'm sure that it was mentioned that the Tok'ra are offspring who didn't get the genetic memory. I may be wrong about that, but I'm really pretty sure. If that is the case, then Jolinar can't be used as an example.
Edit: I remember what it was now... She withheld all genetic memory from the symbiotes the were being used for the drug, but she selectively chose the memory for the Tok'ra. She basically created them to fight the Goa'uld.

So the Tok'ra do have genetic memory, it just helps them do good while the Goa'uld genetic memory seems to help them do evil.

I think intent matters-a lot. If one does good by accident or in the process of achieving another goal, it's just a lucky accident, not a willful desire to do the right thing. If something bad happens as a result of an attempt to do good, you get credit for trying, however much the results might be less than ideal.

I agree, intent does matter, but it's just part of the equation, IMO, the end results matter as well. I'm sure SG-1 felt their decision in Rite of Passage was a good one since it saved Cassie, though I doubt the people in Metamorphosis would feel the same way. Does the bad result make their decision any less 'good'? Probably not, but does SG-1's good intentions make it any less 'bad' from the others' perspective? Probably not, IMO.

Ultimately, for me, the Goa'uld are a much more interesting enemy because they are not purely evil, it makes them a bit more unpredictable, and therefore makes SG-1's interactions with them more unpredictable.

By the same token, to me, SG-1 are much more interesting characters because they are not purely good, they have dark sides and grey areas that can make them unpredictable as well.

[amconway]

Ultimately, for me, the Goa'uld are a much more interesting enemy because they are not purely evil, it makes them a bit more unpredictable, and therefore makes SG-1's interactions with them more unpredictable.

By the same token, to me, SG-1 are much more interesting characters because they are not purely good, they have dark sides and grey areas that can make them unpredictable as well.

Agree to disagree...

[EvenstarSRV]

Agree to disagree...

Cool, thanks for the discussion.

[amconway]

And the same to you! I think this is the only in-depth analysis I've been able to participate in on Gateworld! Most enjoyable!

[gateship15]

this is a great episode it introduces Teal'c's family and the process of implantation and its importance.it also tells us more about teal'c himself

[The Stig]

a nice little teal'c story. This episode introduces Bratac if i am not mistaken.

[Cheerful Dragon]

A good episode that shows us that Teal'c does have emotions. His reaction when he found his house destroyed and also when he left his wife and son were heart-rending. Teal'c spends so much time looking like there's a nasty smell coming from somewhere, it's nice to see him react to what's going on.

Stig's right, this is the first time we meet Bra'tac. He fights well for some one who's 133 years old. I liked the interaction between him and O'Neill, and I'm glad he became a recurring character.

[gateship15]

i agree with u