Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[leiasky]

Pol, I can't wait to read that Campfire. . .

Which, along with the insignia, is an example of how Stargate - more than most TV - really does expect a certain amount of intelligence from it's viewers. As I once heard it said, we're expected to keep up with the group. The tour will *not* be waiting for stragglers and you'll have to catch up on your own.

RDA was big on not insulting the intelligence of the fans. There's this great interview with him where he talks about it.

Still think they were a little *too* vague at the beginning of S9, what with there being no on screen evidence I've ever seen detailing why Jack left for Washington, though as I've said before, here we pretty much assumed it was to get out of Sam's direct chain-of-command and that any 'real' reason they might have given would have been just an excuse Though that seems *too* obtuse even for Stargate, though maybe that was the point?

There's an interview with Michael Shanks somewhere where he talks about filming a scene before Jack leaves for Washington. I wish that transcript was around because it was really needed. There were too many sweeping changes into Season 9 and some needed to be further explained.

[SnowWhite]

Pol, I can't wait to read that Campfire. . .

me neither

RDA was big on not insulting the intelligence of the fans. There's this great interview with him where he talks about it.

Does anybody have that interview? Sounds really interesting

[Petra]

OT: Mitchell

Spoiler:

I understand where you're coming from. For me, it made sense that he was given command initially since the Gou'ald had been taken care of, and the Replicators too, and the rest of SG-1 was gone. It was time to bring in new blood and get them experience. And for all we know, he did get that intital "Off-World" training that they showed in the episode Proving Ground. They never said he didn't I don't think, but I could be wrong. Or he may have recieved it as part of his F-302 training. He had been part of the SG program before this after all. Plus, pilots receive a lot of combat training. They go through the survival school, they plan and execute combat missions constantly. But, you're right, not everyone knows that.

Spoiler:

Thanks for understanding I'm sorry to say that while I sort of see your POV, I can't agree with it myself. Argument with getting "new blood" makes no sense to me, because it's clear that the SGC was steadily receiving new blood throughout the first 8 years. In season 1 there was only 9 teams, in season 8 - how many? Over 20 I believe. We were shown how the SGC was recruiting people and we were shown how they went about giving them experience (training - becoming a team member - getting your own team). Why would they change the formula that worked for years? As for Cam possibly receiving the training - it's never been stated explicitly one way or the other but the very first scene introducing Cam strongly implied that he didn't: because he said himself that he had never before even seen the 'Gate or the Gateroom prior to this very scene. And the next thing we saw was him receiving command and putting together his team. So: no time for training.

Thanks for the info about the pilots, I didn't know that.

Spoiler:

I never really saw him as incompetent, more that he made mistakes. And he recovered and learned from them. And honestly, SG-1-Classic made mistakes all the time. Off the top of my head, Sam almost killed a planet (Red Sky), Jack slept around and got nanites (okay, he was drugged, but still...), Sam broke cover to go to Jack and got killed (and later revived by the Nox), Sam let her evil twin lose on the universe, Jack essentially created "Evil" Fifth, Daniel touched things to often, Teal'c... uh... Teal'c... I got nothing. Teal'c's perfect.

Spoiler:

Of course SG-1 made mistakes: they were fallible human beings, they couldn't have been always right (but I insist that Jack was a victim in BC: he was essentially date-raped and if we must point fingers I'd say it was a screw-up on Daniel's part, because as a resident culture expert he should have pointed out possible implications of the cake offer, especially given his own wedding). The difference is in magnitude of those mistakes and what caused them. I can't compare Sam's mistake with dialling computer from Red Sky to Mitchell leaving super-secret alien technology unattended in some hospital because he felt bad about hurting his friend. Or Jack leaving Fifth behind (which is debatable as being a mistake btw) with Mitchell going AWOL because he couldn't keep it in his pants. Basically, when classic SG-1 made a mistake they had an important reason storywise; when Mitchell made a mistake it was usually something totally stupid, making him look like an idiot and likely there because the writers didn't think how it could be perceived.

Teal'c disregarded Jack's opinion in Exodus and got them both stranded, does it count?

I know we won't convince each other - it's been *years* and the fandom is still divided over this - but it's nice to have a respectful discussion and learn new things. All I'm trying to say is that I don't dislike the last 2 seasons "just because"; I have my reasons, which IMO are valid and the way Cam was written or the whole command issue is just the tip of an iceberg. But I won't get into it further and ruin your fun, I promise.

EDIT: Actually, it might have been better if they'd started out with Cam as a Colonel rather than an LTC as that would have cleared up any questions about why he was in command rather than Sam. Seriously. And then her calling him Cam rather than Sam would have been more significant, too.

As much as I enjoy finding out new things about American military (it's not sarcasm; it's really interesting to me) I think - and I'm saying this as respectfully as I can - that you are missing the point. I honestly don't care what rank Cam had at any point in time. Obviously I can't speak for all antis but personally I don't know anybody who'd have reacted differently to Cam if he had been introduced as a full bird. That's not the issue. Even if he had been given command of SG-1 as a Colonel it wouldn't have changed the fact that TPTB/network/studio/whatever couldn't handle having woman in charge and continued to portray Sam as happy about always being second to a guy, even when her knowledge and experience were vastly superior to that of her new male boss.

re: names. As a shipper I agree that it would have been more significant to *us*. But it would have sent the wrong signal to the rest of the fandom, as in: "look, she can be friends with anyone, regardless of their rank, except Jack. What chance do they have together if he's the only guy in the universe she can't bring herself to call by his name? Obviously it's not because of their professional relationship".

Sorry for hijacking your thread, but since the Discussion one is dormant at the moment...

[leiasky]

me neither


Does anybody have that interview? Sounds really interesting

I'm sure its on You Tube but I also think its in one of the special features on one of the dvd sets. Probably the focus on RDA special.

[SnowWhite]

I'm sure its on You Tube but I also think its in one of the special features on one of the dvd sets. Probably the focus on RDA special.

Thanks, I'll try the dvds, then yt

[Cagranosalis]

Too many pages and too many good posts to MQ but I have been enjoying the recent discussions about S9, ranks etc. Apologies if this is a mammoth post but probably the only chance I'll get to do so this week.

On ranks.
To me, there's no real argument; I understood (probably from the last time Seahen explained it all) that Cam outranks Sam in terms of time in role but that was almost incidental given that they are the same rank.
In terms of how that fits in to Cam's apparent leadership of SG-1. Well he was given that leadership; to take it off of him just because Sam came back would have been as wrong as Sam kind of being sidelined on SG-1. Basically, I think TPTB just didn't think out the scenario properly - or how it would play out on screen - and it kind of ended up confusing half of us and peeing off the other half of us. I do think they made efforts to explain/rectify this later on (hence the scene in Uninvited). You can't really blame TPTB though; they were faced with a situation of not having AT available for the first few episodes and they also had to work around RDA's leaving too whilst introducing new characters. In an ideal world, yes, they should have slowly introduced us to Cam perhaps starting in Season 8 some time to make it a 4 man team then, yes Sam should have been IC of SG-1 with Cam maybe being a major and yes, when she was absent the first bit of S9 they could have come up with a "temporary special assignment" for her but... meh, they didn't. And I understand why. Time and money play a factor. They did the best they could with the actors, situation and finances they had available to them... I do believe that's something I've found myself repeating from time to time. Frankly, if I look beyond the intricacies of who was doing what where and when and focus on the stories they are telling then none of it really spoils my enjoyment of the series.


On the issue of ambiguity of their current relationship status.
I like that it's ambigious. I do believe TPTB have achieved a very rare thing and kept the (majority) of shippers fairly pleased and the majority of antis happy too. There will be some who want more - and hey, I'm not going to turn it down if they want to show it to us - but I'm happy with what we've had so far and, most importantly, I am happy that they've done nothing on screen to contradict the idea of them as a couple in the intervening time.
There was a point, back when they were first talking about movie #3 that I was sort of thinking they might well write them as not a couple but this being the them-getting-together moment. It wouldn't have fitted into my personal canon (together since Threads) but it would have made some kind of sense to me. However, I do think that, if that was indeed what they intended, they must realise it does not now work. For Sam and Jack not to have gotten together immediately(ish) after Threads is quite difficult for me to swallow anyway; to think they might have waited another 4+ years after that.... nah! So, I don't know what I think now. I just hope they bloody well hurry up and sort out the finances and get the ball rolling on it because, I think it's pretty clear, even after all this time, the interest is still out there and it will turn a small but significant profit if they make it.



SGU. I am spoilering this just in case; it's just the respectful thing to do until I'm sure everyone has had a chance to see it:

Spoiler:

Yes!

Jack calls her Sam


*happy shippy sigh*



Actually, to me, what also significant was the earlier conversation (the pyramid one) because there's a nice ease that felt very old style Stargate to me. One of the things that made SG-1 so good - and Sam and Jack such a great couple - is the ease of their friendship. And they are friends beyond anything else they may or may not also be (depending on your ship tendencies).
I like SGU for its own reasons but I miss some of the easy humour and lightness that was mixed into the tapestry that was SG-1 and SGA. People have described SGU and "Stargate does Battlestar Gallactica" but, you know, I think of Space: Above and Beyond when I watch it (for those of you who remember/watched that series).

I'm not actually a fan of having SG-1 characters appearing on SGU. While I appreciate the chance to see them and I'm not complaining about them given the lack of movement in the movie department but SGU has its own set of characters/situations/events and it really doesn't need SG-1 characters to make it work. I don't believe we will see any outright confirmation there - nor will we really see any subtle hints - until after the movie because I do believe they are saving the "big reveal" for that. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt them to have a strategically placed picture in his office that we perhaps don't quite get a decent enough glimpse of... something to, y'know, keep us watching out for and ask Joe about on his blog. )

And final-but-shallow comment on this SGU episode: I finally have the same hairstyle/colour as Sam Carter. Having changed absolutely nothing about mine except a few fairish highlights to disguise the alarming amount of grey in it. I probably have more split ends mind.
(In other words, that wasn't even slightly blonde, was it? Or is it my TV that makes me think that?)


But enough waffle about SGU.


He called her Sam! He called her Sam!

Aaand... Pol. nice observation on that scene in Shades of Grey (and me too chomping at the bit for that Campfire... no pressure and Congrats on the writing too, because that's fair awesome!)

On the subject of significant inflection on certain words: funnily enough, last night I was capping a certain scene from Grace... go on, see if you can't guess which one...







Want a clue?







OK here's a Big Fat Hint:

*stares*


Umm, where was I? Oh yeah...

Anyway, going back to significant words in dialogue, I was watching the bit just before this wonderful oh-so-angsty-yet-guttery kiss... umm, where was I again? Kiss... yes... focus... anyway, the talk Sam has with hallucination Jack here:

O'NEILL: Maybe it's not me that's the problem here. Let's face it, I'm not that complex.

CARTER: Me?

O'NEILL: Sam. I'm a safe bet.

CARTER: As long as I'm thinking about you, setting my sights on what I think is unobtainable, there's no chance of being hurt by someone else.


On that bolded bit. I think it's fairly significant because here she is, hallucinating him, fully aware that she is (and thus everything he says is merely a translation of what she thinks he is thinking but that's a whole other discussion). But even knowing this is all in her head, she's acknowledging that it's her that thinks he's unobtainable not necessarily that he actually is. It's not "Setting my sights on what is unobtainable", it's "I think". She's obviously worked out - conciously or not, rightly or wrongly - that he's not interested in her that way or that there's absolutely no chance of there ever being a them; she has no basis on which to come to this conclusion other than how he has acted towards her and the current nature of their relationship. Wrongly, as it turns out. But even in all that, she's allowing a little bit of wiggle room for herself to doubt whether he is really that unobtainable.
As it turns out Sam, er, no, he really isn't.


Phew... it's been ages since I did a mammoth post like that... have some fluff as a thank you for sticking with me:

[yessika]

Speaking of S9 and S10, I like about half of all the things done (for example: I hate Cam but I love Vala). So they were not too bad

*goes off to find RDA interview*

[mad_gater]

Spoiler:

Thanks for understanding I'm sorry to say that while I sort of see your POV, I can't agree with it myself. Argument with getting "new blood" makes no sense to me, because it's clear that the SGC was steadily receiving new blood throughout the first 8 years. In season 1 there was only 9 teams, in season 8 - how many? Over 20 I believe. We were shown how the SGC was recruiting people and we were shown how they went about giving them experience (training - becoming a team member - getting your own team). Why would they change the formula that worked for years? As for Cam possibly receiving the training - it's never been stated explicitly one way or the other but the very first scene introducing Cam strongly implied that he didn't: because he said himself that he had never before even seen the 'Gate or the Gateroom prior to this very scene. And the next thing we saw was him receiving command and putting together his team. So: no time for training.

Thanks for the info about the pilots, I didn't know that.

Spoiler:

Of course SG-1 made mistakes: they were fallible human beings, they couldn't have been always right (but I insist that Jack was a victim in BC: he was essentially date-raped and if we must point fingers I'd say it was a screw-up on Daniel's part, because as a resident culture expert he should have pointed out possible implications of the cake offer, especially given his own wedding). The difference is in magnitude of those mistakes and what caused them. I can't compare Sam's mistake with dialling computer from Red Sky to Mitchell leaving super-secret alien technology unattended in some hospital because he felt bad about hurting his friend. Or Jack leaving Fifth behind (which is debatable as being a mistake btw) with Mitchell going AWOL because he couldn't keep it in his pants. Basically, when classic SG-1 made a mistake they had an important reason storywise; when Mitchell made a mistake it was usually something totally stupid, making him look like an idiot and likely there because the writers didn't think how it could be perceived.

Teal'c disregarded Jack's opinion in Exodus and got them both stranded, does it count?

I know we won't convince each other - it's been *years* and the fandom is still divided over this - but it's nice to have a respectful discussion and learn new things. All I'm trying to say is that I don't dislike the last 2 seasons "just because"; I have my reasons, which IMO are valid and the way Cam was written or the whole command issue is just the tip of an iceberg. But I won't get into it further and ruin your fun, I promise.



As much as I enjoy finding out new things about American military (it's not sarcasm; it's really interesting to me) I think - and I'm saying this as respectfully as I can - that you are missing the point. I honestly don't care what rank Cam had at any point in time. Obviously I can't speak for all antis but personally I don't know anybody who'd have reacted differently to Cam if he had been introduced as a full bird. That's not the issue. Even if he had been given command of SG-1 as a Colonel it wouldn't have changed the fact that TPTB/network/studio/whatever couldn't handle having woman in charge and continued to portray Sam as happy about always being second to a guy, even when her knowledge and experience were vastly superior to that of her new male boss.

re: names. As a shipper I agree that it would have been more significant to *us*. But it would have sent the wrong signal to the rest of the fandom, as in: "look, she can be friends with anyone, regardless of their rank, except Jack. What chance do they have together if he's the only guy in the universe she can't bring herself to call by his name? Obviously it's not because of their professional relationship".

Sorry for hijacking your thread, but since the Discussion one is dormant at the moment...

not to mention the new bad guy in the last 2 seasons, the Ori, was kinda cliche....not to mention the false gods bit gets kinda old after awhile....

[hlndncr]

Personally, I think the character of Sam works for the story best not being in command. She's the technobabbler. She needs someone to babble too. When she's the boss, she has no one to babble too. I think that's why so many stories in season 8 were told from Earth, so that she could babble to General Jack back at the SGC. But that's just my own personal opinion of course.

So many stories were told from earth in S8 because RDA was the star and he was now the earth-bound general. That's what Brad Wright said in an interview for Gateworld just before S9 aired. And Sam was always happy to technobabble to Daniel, who actually listened to her; so I don't buy that as any kind of a valid reason for Sam not being in command.

[JenniferJF]

As much as I enjoy finding out new things about American military (it's not sarcasm; it's really interesting to me) I think - and I'm saying this as respectfully as I can - that you are missing the point. I honestly don't care what rank Cam had at any point in time. Obviously I can't speak for all antis but personally I don't know anybody who'd have reacted differently to Cam if he had been introduced as a full bird. That's not the issue. Even if he had been given command of SG-1 as a Colonel it wouldn't have changed the fact that TPTB/network/studio/whatever couldn't handle having woman in charge and continued to portray Sam as happy about always being second to a guy, even when her knowledge and experience were vastly superior to that of her new male boss.

Oh, I actually agree with this in general. What *should* have happened if they decided to pull Sam back to the SGC because of the situation with the Ori was for her to be given her own team. For her to be stuck taking orders from someone with less practical experience at what they're doing when she herself is eligible for the same command is ludicrous and does, I believe, reflect a bias somewhere for the formula of the heroic attractive male in charge.

I was just making a comment about the situation with the ranks and how unrealistic I found the situation of two light colonels on the same team, not the wisdom of their not letting Sam command her own team.

[Seahen]

So many stories were told from earth in S8 because RDA was the star and he was now the earth-bound general. That's what Brad Wright said in an interview for Gateworld just before S9 aired. And Sam was always happy to technobabble to Daniel, who actually listened to her; so I don't buy that as any kind of a valid reason for Sam not being in command.

I'm sure there's more than one reason for any decision TPTB make, our points of view here are not mutually exclusive.

EDIT: And I guess I'm confused as to why she would technobabble to Daniel? I guess to bounce off ideas occasionally, but I guess I'm more referring to babbling to the decision maker to help him/her make a decision. Which, if she's the decision maker, why babble to herself? And as I said originally, that's strictly my own opinion. Sam works best for me as the technobabbler. Unless she has a babbler of her own such as McKay.

[hlndncr]

I'm sure there's more than one reason for any decision TPTB make, our points of view here are not mutually exclusive.

EDIT: And I guess I'm confused as to why she would technobabble to Daniel? I guess to bounce off ideas occasionally, but I guess I'm more referring to babbling to the decision maker to help him/her make a decision. Which, if she's the decision maker, why babble to herself? And as I said originally, that's strictly my own opinion. Sam works best for me as the technobabbler. Unless she has a babbler of her own such as McKay.

Sam alway liked bouncing ideas off of Daniel. Even in charge, I still think she would discuss scientific problems with him. And seeing her as a "technobabbler" I think really sells her character short. But we're all entitled to our own opinions.

[Seahen]

Sam alway liked bouncing ideas off of Daniel. Even in charge, I still think she would discuss scientific problems with him. And seeing her as a "technobabbler" I think really sells her character short. But we're all entitled to our own opinions.

Why is that selling her short?

[hlndncr]

Why is that selling her short?

To me it fails to give sufficient credence to other aspects of her character like her leadership and military skills.

[Seahen]

To me it fails to give sufficient credence to other aspects of her character like her leadership and military skills.

Well, I never said she didn't have those things. But I believe her main role on the team was science. Not that they didn't use her skills in those other areas, obviously they did. But the skill that got her the job was her science skill, and that was her position as the technobabbler I was referring to. Military officers with military and leadership skills are a dime a dozen. Military officers who can dissect naquadah reactors in their sleep are not. That's what I believe she brings to the team no one else has.