Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[m_wendy_r]

I think you've just hit on one of the basic differences between 'types' of Sam/Jack shippers, if you will. Many of you have (like you, Sal) been shipping Sam and Jack since the very beginning and have this image in your heads of how you'd like the relationship to be... and for many of you, it's an outright and overt love story. Nothing less than that is ever going to really satisfy.

For others of us (like me), we fell in love with the ship because of the way it was. We love the relationship because of what has happened, not what we hope might happen. So, having come to the ship because we were - essentially - generally satisfied with the angst and overall subtlety of the relationship, we're more likely to remain generally satisfied now that it's continuing to have that subtlety it always has had.

So maybe it has more to do with different expectations of what Sam and Jack's relationship should be than anything else.

I'm the same as you Keaira, in the middle of the two scenarios. I have loved the Sam and Jack interaction in the beginning and the growth of it through the years. We had our confirmation in Threads, but do I want to see it? Well . . . heck yeah, but it isn't the end of the Sam and Jack saga if we don't see it. I know in my heart and Sam/Jack know in their hearts that they are together and it is forever. Until the day the movie comes and "shows" it to us, I will be happy knowing that they are together.

I think this must make me the really complicated shipper. I've been with the ship since the beginning, I've watched both characters grow and have, at times, screamed at the TV screen in the hopes they would hear me and just get on with it. And whilst it's true that I would love to see MORE from them, because this will always be the greatest couple on TV for me, I don't NEED to. I know they're together. I know exactly what fishing means, and there's been enough in the way of "hints" that I'm quite happy without it being spelled out for me. Don't get me wrong, if they were to show me a scene that gave all a confirmation, I would be thrilled because not only would I have gotten to see more, but then I would know no one could doubt it. But it's not too important to me, I just want more of what we've had, more of what we could've had. I'd like to see where they are now.

I think, looking back, their relationship story is EPIC. And because of the nature of their story, you don't necessarily need to complete it on a bang (BHK).

I've grown as the ship as moved forward. I used to read a lot of fanfiction where they would get together in S2, then 3, then 4, then 5... you get the idea. But now I can't read those because not only do they contradict canon, but they don't even suit where I am mentally either. Sticking to canon is my thing, and they get together at the end of Threads -- I'm not only satisfied with this, but if you tell me otherwise, my brain can't even handle it.

(oops, sorry for the ramble)

[JenniferJF]

I think this must make me the really complicated shipper. I've been with the ship since the beginning, I've watched both characters grow and have, at times, screamed at the TV screen in the hopes they would hear me and just get on with it. And whilst it's true that I would love to see MORE from them, because this will always be the greatest couple on TV for me, I don't NEED to. I know they're together. I know exactly what fishing means, and there's been enough in the way of "hints" that I'm quite happy without it being spelled out for me. Don't get me wrong, if they were to show me a scene that gave all a confirmation, I would be thrilled because not only would I have gotten to see more, but then I would know no one could doubt it. But it's not too important to me, I just want more of what we've had, more of what we could've had. I'd like to see where they are now.

Oh... I totally get this. Because of course, while some long term shippers wanted more overt declarations of love and adore the blatancy and in-your-face nature of off-canon fanfic, many are very happy with what has been done on the show and with the characters simply because you like the story that's been told even if it's not exactly what you would have written or wanted (or.... you know... maybe you got very lucky and it's *exactly* what you dreamed about).

I've grown as the ship as moved forward. I used to read a lot of fanfiction where they would get together in S2, then 3, then 4, then 5... you get the idea. But now I can't read those because not only do they contradict canon, but they don't even suit where I am mentally either. Sticking to canon is my thing, and they get together at the end of Threads -- I'm not only satisfied with this, but if you tell me otherwise, my brain can't even handle it.

Well, part of it, I think, is whether you like the people Sam and Jack were revealed to be, with all their flaws and fears. Because, obviously, we didn't know all that back at the beginning of the series and viewers had to fill in a lot of the blanks. And those people, IMHO of course, didn't get together until Threads for a wide and complex variety of personal and professional reasons. If they would have they would have been *fundamentally* different people than the Sam and Jack we have come to know and love. Not simply because other choices weren't possible for our Sam and Jack, but because in making those choices and taking those other paths they would have become different people than the Sam and Jack we see onscreen now. So, I think, if you love who they are now - the people they have grown into - you're less likely to want to change the journey because then they *aren't* that Sam and Jack.

[Rachel500]

I firmly believe that each shipper is in a category of their own in terms of their expectations, wants, desires, happiness with the ship to date. Generalising about what one type of shippers want versus another type shippers is fundamentally just that a generalisation - and assumes that there are only two types when there are many, many different variations of grey between the black and white extremes.

I've just read an article which defines shippers as fans for whom their enjoyment of a show HINGES on a romantic relationship. And I reeled back from my computer because this is so NOT my definition. And that definition annoys me. Hugely. Because I consider myself a shipper but I don't agree that my enjoyment HINGES on a romantic relationship.

Personally, I think a shipper is a supporter of a particular romantic relationship - and that's it. Yes, there are shippers for whom their enjoyment of a show probably does hinge on the romantic relationship but there will be many more for whom it doesn't, for whom the romantic relationship and the story told there simply enhances the rest of a show.

And for me that's how I feel about Sam and Jack. I ship them. I am a proud Sam/Jack shipper. Yet my enjoyment of Stargate has never hinged on their relationship. The story of Sam/Jack though has enhanced my enjoyment of SG1 and Stargate.

For me SG1 is a sci-fi action/adventure with a team of people at the heart of it - that's its vanilla version. The ship of Sam/Jack has just been this extra fabulous squeeze of chocolate sauce on top - and in some episodes the chocolate sauce has been missing, in some there has been so much sauce that you could argue its chocolate ice-cream.

Which brings me onto the second part of what I wanted to talk about...subtle versus ambiguity. I love the subtlety of the Sam/Jack dynamic. A lot of that subtlety is down to the way Rick and Amanda played the dynamic. It's down to the looks they exchanged; the touches; the way they reacted to each other's dialogue and actions. It's them losing the dialogue in the force-shield scene and simply telling the story through their expressions, looking at each other.

There have been times when the show has not been subtle for me in regards to the Sam/Jack dynamic. There was nothing subtle about the Broca Divide kiss - or the WOO kiss - or the Grace kiss for that matter - or There But For the Grace of God, of POV, or the whole of Moebius, or for that matter much of Threads bar the ending.

The thing that annoys me is not subtlety but ambiguity. Even TPTB admitted they played the ship the way they did in Threads/Moebius so that people could think what they want; that they continued that mindset through S9/S10. If you want to think they're together, fine - if you don't, well, that's OK too. They weren't being subtle in these seasons - they were being purposefully ambiguous.

And I don't think they were doing it to annoy us or frustrate us per se just that TPTB were trying to have their cake and eat it too - trying to please all sides of the fandom, and in the latter seasons move on in terms of story.

And fine.

If they never do unambiguously confirm Sam/Jack, the world isn't going to end and I'm still going to enjoy my SG1 DVDs and the story of Sam/Jack - and yes, I can pretend and imagine that they're together all I want (I do with my other ship which never actually went anywhere on screen). But I will be disappointed that given that the ship has had its less than subtle moments, given the build-up of the relationship throughout the seasons in SG1, that we never got shown that one moment of unambiguous happy ending for the couple on screen - and at the end of the day, I am a happy ending type of a girl.

[XFchemist]

I think this must make me the really complicated shipper. I've been with the ship since the beginning, I've watched both characters grow and have, at times, screamed at the TV screen in the hopes they would hear me and just get on with it. And whilst it's true that I would love to see MORE from them, because this will always be the greatest couple on TV for me, I don't NEED to. I know they're together. I know exactly what fishing means, and there's been enough in the way of "hints" that I'm quite happy without it being spelled out for me. Don't get me wrong, if they were to show me a scene that gave all a confirmation, I would be thrilled because not only would I have gotten to see more, but then I would know no one could doubt it. But it's not too important to me, I just want more of what we've had, more of what we could've had. I'd like to see where they are now.

I think, looking back, their relationship story is EPIC. And because of the nature of their story, you don't necessarily need to complete it on a bang (BHK).

Since the pilot S/J intrigued me, and I think that I became definitely shipper after Solitudes.
Of course, I agree with the fact that the evolution on their story, angsty included, made this ship so particular and fantastic.
OK, I think that after Threads they're together, but I need the same to watch it clearly showed on the screen. Damn! I'm just asking a REAL BHK!!!

I've grown as the ship as moved forward. I used to read a lot of fanfiction where they would get together in S2, then 3, then 4, then 5... you get the idea. But now I can't read those because not only do they contradict canon, but they don't even suit where I am mentally either. Sticking to canon is my thing, and they get together at the end of Threads -- I'm not only satisfied with this, but if you tell me otherwise, my brain can't even handle it.

(oops, sorry for the ramble)

I believe that you take the ffs in a wrong way. For me they are just a "what if".
What can happen betweeen them if they are forced to face different situations from those descripted in the show. ff set after S4 are simpler cos they already shown their feelings on the screen, but I also like ff set in the early seasons. I mean, for me the important thing is that they're in-character.
Ah, but I love sooo much also the missing scenes from the different episodes

[JenniferJF]

I firmly believe that each shipper is in a category of their own in terms of their expectations, wants, desires, happiness with the ship to date. Generalising about what one type of shippers want versus another type shippers is fundamentally just that a generalisation - and assumes that there are only two types when there are many, many different variations of grey between the black and white extremes.

Oh.. absolutely. I didn't mean to be putting forth a one-person-fits-all generalization as much as I was establishing one specific X,Y axis (expectations based on what you wanted from 'the ship' vs satisfaction with the story you saw unfold, basically) as a way of examining where some of the different opinions on the state of the ship now originate from. As with any axis, specific people fall all over the place on the plane itself depending on where they fall on each axis and not simply at the extreme ends.

As with all such ideas, it was meant simply as a tool, and I wasn't trying to generalize by implying everyone had to be either totally dissatisfied because of their own expectations or completely dissatisfied because they'd had none.

[Akamaimom]

Which brings me onto the second part of what I wanted to talk about...subtle versus ambiguity. I love the subtlety of the Sam/Jack dynamic. A lot of that subtlety is down to the way Rick and Amanda played the dynamic. It's down to the looks they exchanged; the touches; the way they reacted to each other's dialogue and actions. It's them losing the dialogue in the force-shield scene and simply telling the story through their expressions, looking at each other.

This is interesting, because we never would have seen these looks--especially if they aren't in the same camera shot--if the editors and directors hadn't spliced the film that way. For the makers of the show then to plead that they didn't mean for the relationship to be seen that way is disingenuous. They led the audience to see things a certain way just by the manner of their creation of a finished copy.

And I think that the PTB DID mean for us to interpret the scripts this way--I just think that they thought that we didn't need to see the culmination--er--completion--er--peak--er--climax--er--zenith--er--well, you know what I mean--of the relationship. I really do think that they figured that we'd seen them together in Threads and that was enough.

And in reality, seeing Sam pregnant with a toddler hanging on her leg would have brought some stigma once she decided to command the Hammond, and do a term in Atlantis. i think that part of the reason for the ambiguous way they left "things" was to allow plot points for her later in the series and spin-offs.

[Rachel500]

This is interesting, because we never would have seen these looks--especially if they aren't in the same camera shot--if the editors and directors hadn't spliced the film that way. For the makers of the show then to plead that they didn't mean for the relationship to be seen that way is disingenuous. They led the audience to see things a certain way just by the manner of their creation of a finished copy.

And I think that the PTB DID mean for us to interpret the scripts this way--I just think that they thought that we didn't need to see the culmination--er--completion--er--peak--er--climax--er--zenith--er--well, you know what I mean--of the relationship. I really do think that they figured that we'd seen them together in Threads and that was enough.

And in reality, seeing Sam pregnant with a toddler hanging on her leg would have brought some stigma once she decided to command the Hammond, and do a term in Atlantis. i think that part of the reason for the ambiguous way they left "things" was to allow plot points for her later in the series and spin-offs.

Oh I agree. I think the direction, editors, producers have a hand and deserve credit in showing the subtle looks Rick and Amanda played. And I agree that I think TPTB thought Threads was enough - and it might well have been for me had the show and the characters involvement with the show ended there.

And I even accept that much of the S9 ambiguity may have been partially because they didn't know if Rick would ever want to come back and therefore they were leaving it vague so they could do what they wanted with Sam as a character sans Jack without complicating it with the prior history.

However, once Rick agreed to appear in S10 and made it clear he was available, I think a confirmation of what had happened with the couple would have been an appropriate thing to do especially as their characters have continued to make appearances.

Personally, I don't think a happy ending needs to have Sam shown pregnant and with kids, (and they were happy to show Teyla being a mother and working to save the universe so rather negates the idea of them having stigma as the reason for not showing this for Sam). The happy "ending" for the storyline the way I see it is simply unambiguous confirmation the characters are together in a romantic relationship.

[Akamaimom]

The happy "ending" for the storyline the way I see it is simply unambiguous confirmation the characters are together in a romantic relationship.

And I think that's what we're looking for. So I completely agree with you there!

In my opinion, however, there is a slight difference between Teyla's working motherhood and Sam's (were it to have been portrayed that way). Teyla at least stays within the same galaxy for the most part as her child. Sam could not have done that. (Although I know many military families where mom is deployed as well as dad. And I just know that many people would have wanted to see that vision of them--baby makes three and all that.)

I, personally, don't need to see the baby and white picket fence--I think that these characters are complex enough that they would work out their relationship decidedly out of the norm.

[JenniferJF]

This is interesting, because we never would have seen these looks--especially if they aren't in the same camera shot--if the editors and directors hadn't spliced the film that way. For the makers of the show then to plead that they didn't mean for the relationship to be seen that way is disingenuous. They led the audience to see things a certain way just by the manner of their creation of a finished copy.

Which is why I really do think it was about subtlety and showing instead of telling. And Martin Wood will admit he saw the relationship angle way back in Solitudes - as far as I've seen, it's only PdL who has claimed it wasn't until S3. As you say, they filmed it a certain way and the actors made those looks in the first place. They meant to show the Sam/Jack story sub-textually (and a few times overtly) or they never would have filmed it that way. However, part of the price for showing is that it really does leave the thing open for interpretation. D&C itself is a great example of that... Jack never outrightly *says* he loves Sam, it's implied through his caring more for her than he's supposed to. That may be less ambiguous than the relationship normally is, but it's still not absolute 100% proof.

I guess my point is...

They've never ever ever been absolutely 100% unambiguous with the Sam/Jack relationship. It's always been about the subtle looks and gestures. And I have a hard time believing they're going to start being so now.

EDIT: This is not, to clarify further, to say I wouldn't be over the moon to be proven wrong about this. I'm just sayin'.. realistically.. based on their track record.....

[Akamaimom]

EDIT: This is not, to clarify further, to say I wouldn't be over the moon to be proven wrong about this. I'm just sayin'.. realistically.. based on their track record.....

***Sigh*** You're right, you're right, I know you're right.

[Rachel500]

<snipped>
I guess my point is...

They've never ever ever been absolutely 100% unambiguous with the Sam/Jack relationship. It's always been about the subtle looks and gestures. And I have a hard time believing they're going to start being so now.

EDIT: This is not, to clarify further, to say I wouldn't be over the moon to be proven wrong about this. I'm just sayin'.. realistically.. based on their track record.....

And this is where I disagree with you.

WOO was not unambiguous. Jack resigned and kissed Sam; she kissed him back. There was no ambiguity.

Sam and Jack being engaged in TBFGOG = not ambiguous.

Sam and Jack being married in POV = not ambiguous.

Sam discussing with hallucinatory Jack whether he just felt friendship, whether she could let him go if he did = not ambiguous.

AT Sam and Jack in Moebius getting together = not ambiguous.

Heck, even the wedding scene despite the fact it was a tongue-in-cheek poke at the whole thing, acknowledged the existence of the ship in a very unambiguous way.

There have been *moments* when the ship has not been 100% ambiguous. All I'm looking for is one more moment.

[Everlovin]

Hi, all! Catching up, here and still a couple of pages behind, but I wanted to comment.

I so want the novelization of Stargate Revolution. If we can't have the actual movie that is. I really do not want anything about our ship on SGU. Subtleties aside. I'm in the minority here regarding SGU, and I plan on avoiding it like the plague.

And, all this talk about 'cake' tells me. . .

[JenniferJF]

And this is where I disagree with you.

Yeah. We're going to have to disagree (it happens sometimes ) Cause I feel that, by their very nature, hallucinations and AUs and alternate timelines are ambiguous because, technically, they're not actually happening to Sam and Jack under the circumstances in which they really have to live and thus the *meanings*, at least, for our Sam and Jack in their actual time and place are ambiguous. We may know what they mean in that timeline, but what they mean about *our* Sam and Jack in this timeline requires inference.

The very fact the list consists entirely of those moments is actually further proof to me, at least, that they really have intentionally retained that ambiguity in our timeline and for our Sam and Jack.

[Rachel500]

Yeah. We're going to have to disagree (it happens sometimes ) Cause I feel that, by their very nature, hallucinations and AUs and alternate timelines are ambiguous because, technically, they're not actually happening to Sam and Jack under the circumstances in which they really have to live and thus the *meanings*, at least, for our Sam and Jack in their actual time and place are ambiguous. We may know what they mean in that timeline, but what they mean about *our* Sam and Jack in this timeline requires inference.

The very fact the list consists entirely of those moments is actually further proof to me, at least, that they really have intentionally retained that ambiguity in our timeline and for our Sam and Jack.

LOL. Yes, well, disagreeing does happen sometimes.

At least we agree Sam and Jack make a great couple.

[Pol]

Catching up a bit...

I think you've just hit on one of the basic differences between 'types' of Sam/Jack shippers, if you will. Many of you have (like you, Sal) been shipping Sam and Jack since the very beginning and have this image in your heads of how you'd like the relationship to be... and for many of you, it's an outright and overt love story. Nothing less than that is ever going to really satisfy.

For others of us (like me), we fell in love with the ship because of the way it was. We love the relationship because of what has happened, not what we hope might happen. So, having come to the ship because we were - essentially - generally satisfied with the angst and overall subtlety of the relationship, we're more likely to remain generally satisfied now that it's continuing to have that subtlety it always has had.

So maybe it has more to do with different expectations of what Sam and Jack's relationship should be than anything else.

Wow...brava Jen, really. Very succinct and so true.

Off to bed guys.

It's been quite a while since I've spent this much time on the thread and I really enjoyed it.

And all the kiss and subtlety talk has inspired me so I leave you with this.


Sam and Jack walked up the pathway to her house. Their first date had been as she hoped it would be; comfortable and subtle enough not to be awkward, but with enough anticipation and novelty not to be predictable.

Spoiler:

After they climbed the six steps that led to her doorway, Jack slowly took Sam's hand. Looking down at the sight of her smaller hand in his, Jack relished the new liberty of just being able to touch Sam in the most casual of ways.

While his gaze fell downward, Sam kept hers on Jack's face. A slight smile was on his lips, and a new depth penetrated his eyes. The subtle change in Jack's expression wasn't lost on Sam when his thumb began to stoke the back of her hand. As his eyes lifted to meet hers again, Sam couldn't miss the love, and desire and the longing she knew mirrored her own.

Squeezing the hand that still securely held hers, Sam's other hand found it's way to the back of Jack's neck, pulling his mouth down to hers, into a kiss that was anything but ambiguous in its intentions.

Sam kissed Jack the way she had wanted to kiss him, after they'd rescued him from Endora; after they'd gotten him off that damned moon with Maybourne; before he'd left to go rescue Daniel in enemy territory while she headed off world to fight super soldiers; after she'd broken up with Pete.

They say before you die your life flashes before you, but as every death and near death experience flashed before her now, Sam realized that death must pass before you when you were about to live; because that's how she felt. Like kissing Jack was awakening every dormant sensitivity in her, and bringing her to life.

So Sam determined: By the end of this date General Jack O'Neill would have no question about how she felt about him, what she wanted from him.

To hell with subtle.

After 8 years,

it was *so* overrated.

What do you think?

Awesome!

I'm jealous. Valenship happens to be my mom's 71st birthday, so I doubt I'll be around much that day. Such sadness!

Okay, Aka, now we've entered into a really weird 'similarity' state. The 13th is my mother's birthday too.