Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Jack4Sam]

Too much for me to catch up on, no idea what's been said, but thought I'd chime in anyway, the topic seeming to be whether Sam would have/want kids?... Sam was on maternity leave in that reality where she broke up with Marty because her heart belonged to another. *cough* Jack *cough*. Which says to me she wants them at least. She left SG-1 for while so she could. If I remember right, only saw that ep once.

[Major Ryan]

I have yet to hear anyone say they know what parenthood is about before having a child. Sure they could want them and have extensive experience with raising children, but it is never the same as your own.
That's my take on the whole "Drop the baby off at day care" scene. Character wise I think Sam would have a child if it happened and would be a wonderful mother, but I don't think she would go out of her way to quit her career to have a family. Also with marriage, I feel she would judge the situation then and there, if it came about. I never saw her as one to 'dream' about what could be. She might once in a while let it brush her thoughts, but never let it consume her daily life.

non canon though is a whole other entity.....make babies with her smile and his humor...

hope that makes sense.

[fems]

Holy crap, so much to catch up with!

When Sam is with Pete at the end of season 8 when he buys her the dream-house that she always wanted, and she realizes it's absolutely not what she wants, I never thought it was just about Jack.

Frankly, I think the whole scene with Pete showing her the house was her horror at the idea of him buying a house for them without even consulting her! It was just creepy, who does that? Yeah, so he picked a house he thought she would like based on a conversation they had once, but seriously, that's not enough to actually make a down payment and buy a freaking house for the two of you! I do wonder how he could afford it on his detective salary, though, unless he miraculously managed to get Sam's income into the mortgage etc too without her actually knowing about it, let alone signing for it.

Then, once the shock is over and he mentions a dog Sam realizes this is what the rest of her life is going to be like if she goes ahead with the wedding. No wonder the poor woman changed her mind! If this is how her fiance handles the two of them getting a house (there have been absolutely no hints that they even discussed where to live etc after getting married) then will he even 'allow' her to give any input in future decisions as a couple?

Personally, I'm not too surprised by Pete's behavior considering he did a background check on her and stalked her to that stakeout at Daniel's place, but apparently Sam, TPTB and even AT thought was completely normal behavior for a love interest (never mind that as a detective he should know the meaning of 'classified'), but maybe upon being confronted with the house and hypothetical dog Sam finally realizes Pete is not the man for her.

Then, there are still her feelings for Jack and I wouldn't be surprised if she briefly thinks something along the lines of Jack never doing something like that if they were in a relationship because he actually respects her.

So, no, I don't think it was just about Pete but I also don't think the scene was all about Jack. I think it was a mix of both but mainly what a disastrous decision it would be to marry Pete and spend the rest of her life with him, with her feelings for Jack being secondary in the situation.

The entire character is build up as strong, independent. She doesn't need to get married to find fulfillment in her life.

No, Sam doesn't need to get married to find fulfillment in life but she has been engaged twice! So, obviously, she thinks marriage is a good concept - even if her choice in men leaves something to be desired.

And Jack - well, he's been married once, he had a son who died, and he's coming to be an age where he might not even want kids anymore.

Except Jack didn't seem too opposed to giving Laira a child... and that was only a few years after Charlie had died, so it's more than likely that Jack would still want children later on, too. I do agree, however, that he wouldn't want to be eighty when the kid graduates high school, so there would be a time limit and thus it really depends on when he and Sam got together.

I don't think, marriage or kids is what is on the mind of either of them - they most certainly don't rule it out, but it's career that matters most to both of them.

Again, Sam has been engaged to be married twice in the past and Jack has been married (and divorced) once, so it doesn't seem like they are opposed to marriage at all. I don't agree with career being all that matters to them. Yes, Sam is very career-orientated and would most likely want to become a general one day. Jack, on the other hand, doesn't seem to give a crap about career advancement. He did say he loved the Air Force (when General Ryan was visiting) and I believe that to be true, however, he had absolutely no problem with going against orders on several occasions. His record probably has quite a few black marks and he's also said on several occasions that he was retired and they wanted him back, not the other way around.

If his career was the most important thing in his life then he wouldn't have hesitated to take the promotion to brigadier general, yet he had doubts and wasn't sure whether that was something he really wanted and/or capable of doing.

Not to mention that he typed up his resignation letter in Zero Hour, even if he didn't go through with it. He wrote it and didn't seem too upset at the prospect of retiring/resigning, regardless of Sam being in the picture.

If it was any other way, they would have asked for reassignment or the like. It's possible in the military. But they didn't. Not after Grace, not after Threads - although, their reassignments at the beginning of S9 are handled in a very cryptic way ("i had my reasons"? Give me a break! ), that might or might not mean that they're pursuing a relationship - I'm romantic, I believe that they are, not lastly, because I've read comments by people involved that said it was intended that they do, just not shown on the show explicitly. But they pursue it in a way that allows both of them to follow their career paths still.

Except Sam had already invested at least two years of her life into the Stargate before the SGC was even established and it had given Jack a new lease on life, so they were clearly invested into the Program. Besides, once you've gone through the Stargate flying F-16s apparently isn't all that exiting anymore. And considering Jack's time as a POW in Iraq he might not be too keen on going back there, either.

I really doubt anyone who's been stationed at the SGC would ask for reassignment elsewhere after having been to other planets and interacted with aliens.

Also, how trivial would it seem to be fighting wars and killing other humans on your own planet when you know what kind of big bad is out there? Sam and Jack clearly felt defending the planet and making alien allies was more important than a romantic relationship between the two of them and isn't that really the USAF's motto; service before self?

After Threads they both requested/were reassigned and, however temporary, out of the same chain of command. So, it's very likely they did choose to pursue a romantic relationship, hence their reassignments.

However, I just have to comment on the bolded paragraph. I don't feel the same way about Pete as most other shippers because I think Sam needed Pete at that point in her life to push her to a full realization of what she really wanted - Jack.

I'm not entirely sure about how I feel about Pete. I certainly dislike his character with a passion but I also appreciate the wonderful angst his relationship with Sam brought to us fanfic writers. However, I would like to say that I think they dragged it out too long. It should have ended around Lost City, especially if it had been the last season as they were expecting at the time and there would have been a kiss between Sam and Jack. I simply can't imagine Sam being the kind of person to basically cheat on her partner, regardless of how much she might love Jack.

The engagement was taking things a bit too far, in my opinion, particularly with how random Pete's appearances (or even mentions) were.

I think Sam came to the full realization that she was in love with Jack O'Neill. It wasn't just about marriage, it was about Jack and when you love someone, at some point, marriage becomes the natural next step. Wanting that doesn't take away from Sam's strength or independence, (just ask any married woman on the thread ) .

I disagree with marriage being the natural next step in a relationship but that's probably more of a cultural difference. Still, I do think it would have been the next step for Sam and Jack; not just because they loved each other and had already more or less gone through the best and worst with each other, but also because it would show how serious they are about each other.

I'm not saying unmarried couples aren't serious about their feelings for each other or their intentions in the relationship but I think that in the case of Sam/Jack, it would eliminate the perception of the two of them having carried on an affair for years and Sam sleeping her way to the top, blah blah. After all, Sam is still a high-ranking woman in the Air Force and reputation and perception are very important in such situations, as it could make or break her career and everything she has worked so hard for the last few years.

i'm not sure with sam, but i do think she's thought about it at least. with jack, i think he'd be (very) willing to put his career aside and help raise a child of theirs.

I agree. As a matter of fact, I think he would be the one to insist on taking the majority of child care upon him because he knows how important Sam's career is and how far she can go; he's already at the top of his and he doesn't really care that much about his career anyway, as long as there is an adequate replacement for him.

[fems]

And for Jack however, I'm inclined to think that Charlie's death had a way of putting a things into perspective for Jack. At the point in time when we're introduced to him in the Stargate movie, he was willing to throw it all away because of what he perceives to be his son's senseless death at his own hands. He did, however, say in the episode 'Fallen' (if I remember correctly) to the newly-descended Daniel that things were different from when they first started, so he does indeed recognise that what he's doing is important. I've always felt as well, that his views about his own career have been contradictory at times (verging on retirement, then taking the HWS job) and how much that depends on Sam is also a matter of personal interpretation and the tint of your shippy glasses. Maybe he thought that being with Sam was more important than being a General. Maybe he took the position as head of the SGC because he thought there was no other way for him and Sam to be together. Maybe he simply took it because the SGC was the front line defence, even though he knew he wasn't a paper pusher. Whether his career means the world to him, I'm guessing you could argue either way.

I agree that there are some contradictory views on Jack's intentions regarding his career, but I really think most of that is down to him eventually taking the responsibility (command of SGC, HWS/HWC) because he doesn't think there is anyone else other than Hammond he would trust to do a good job of it. Not yet, anyway. Most likely because of their bad experiences with the NID, Kinsey, General Bauer and the politicians/brass that still oppose the SGC.

And he might also not want to let Hammond down, as I got the impression Hammond was the one who recommended Jack for both positions and had been grooming him as a replacement for his entire duration at the SGC. If Jack hadn't been willing to step up and take over for Hammond he never should have accepted the position of his 2IC on base.

In a way, I think it was Pete who made her grow up. (Just think of that dislogue with Jack/her unconscious mind in Grace for example. She was holding on to Jack so much because she knew it wouldn't happen, and that would give her the security to not be hurt. She had to step away from Jack to stop seeing him as her shield.)

I've got to disagree with this, as I cannot take a lot of what happened aboard Prometheus serious considering the ridiculous conclusions Sam came to while suffering from a severe concussion and talking to hallucinations!

However, what really put me off was the fact that neither of them did resign after 'Threads'. The entire episode was building towards it, and even though I do believe they started a relationship after it - which was the cause for their reassignments - this is based on speculation. I read an article the other day stating that it couldn't happen, because Jack became Head of Homeworld Security and was therefore still Sam's superior officer - just way way up the chain of command.

So either the writers did a really shi**y job in resolving this after building up the entire Threads episode to them finally getting together - or they actually did mean to portray the Sam character in a way that did indeed make the statement that she chose career over Jack once again; they both did.

Then again in season 9 when this NIS agent asks her if she's single again now, she replied "Not exactly" - whatever that is supposed to mean. 'Not exactly' sounds like an in between kind of thing... I don't know.

I blame the writers for this, though. They never wanted to take the risk of confirming the Sam/Jack relationship out of fear of chasing away other fans. I don't entirely agree with that premise but then I've also seen enough shows suffer from two main characters getting together that I don't disagree with it either. Not to mention how much lovely material it has given fanfic writers to play with!

Also, someone (maybe hlndncr?) recently pointed out to me how we never really got a proper description of what Homeworld Security (it only became Homeworld Command in SGU) was. Personally, I believe it was a new military department and overseeing everything alien/Stargate-related but other than what Weir said about Hammond's new job in New Order we don't know anything for surel, so it's possible the chain of command thing isn't that big a problem for Sam and Jack onwards from season 9.

However, I do think Sam and Jack got together post season 8 but they've decided (or were ordered) to keep it low-key, hence her comment to Barrett. I also believe they were married to prevent any CoC issues since it was clear Sam could be recalled to the SGC at any moment, like what happened in Beachhead even though it was supposed to be temporary.

Then, of course, there is also the vague talk in the deleted scene from Trio, which I prefer to think is Sam's way of telling Keller it's none of her business as Sam's marriage to Jack is something personal that she doesn't want to flaunt to her co-workers/subordinates because of their working relationship/history. Then again, depending on what fic idea I have I might also interpret it as nothing has happened yet and they're waiting to get together once Jack retires! Still, the scene was deleted for a reason and Jack was supposed to retire soon, until TPTB came up with SGU and undoubtedly wanted Jack/RDA (and Sam) in it to draw Stargate fans.

I never understood why the writer's didn't let him retire after season 8. Especially because RDA was leaving the show anyway - no idea.

TPTB probably didn't want to alienate any fans of RDA/Jack by having Jack retire. Plus, it's also possible RDA still had some say in what was going to happen to his character considering his position at the time... and this way he could still come back for future guest appearances in the entire franchise.

What other kind of legacy? I think Sam would consider Cassie a part of her legacy. Not only did she save Cassie, but I think she had a hand in raising her. We aren't really told, but I think Cassie turns out to be a great young lady and I'm sure Sam would be proud of whatever she did with her life.

Nah, Cassie turns out to be a great old lady with lots of knowledge of solar flares, physics, time travel and Stargate stuff!

And actually, if you think back about it and watch the characters up until the Zatarc point, the only hints and flirtations were always coming exclusively from Jack.
[snip]
We never see Sam do anything the like until actually very late on the show. The first direct hint is 'Grace', where she actually considers fantasizing about kissing Jack for a moment, but then opts against it.

And actually that behavioral pattern is kind of mirrored later on in Moebius, when he makes the pass on her, and first she declines, but in the very end she's the one taking the first step to kiss him.

I know, it is really nothing but a thought experiment I'm conducting here, but you could well argue it that way as well, because the show never actually gives answers. Or am I mistaken?

I have to disagree here again: there were plenty of moments where Sam's feelings for Jack were more than platonic, the first one coming to mind is her reaction to Jack walking away in the middle of her explanation to talk to Laira at the end of A Hundred Days.

Also, Sam did kiss him back in WoO and looked incredibly awkward in PoV when Jack kissed her double and not just because he was kissing someone that looked like her and she felt weird about it because she didn't feel the same way.

Too much for me to catch up on, no idea what's been said, but thought I'd chime in anyway, the topic seeming to be whether Sam would have/want kids?... Sam was on maternity leave in that reality where she broke up with Marty because her heart belonged to another. *cough* Jack *cough*. Which says to me she wants them at least. She left SG-1 for while so she could. If I remember right, only saw that ep once.

Good point, I'd forgotten one of the Sams was on maternity leave! I also never interpreted Sam's talk with Jack in Affinity to mean she didn't want children, because if she didn't then she wouldn't have worried about what to do with the baby while she went to work at the SGC.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

now is Homeworld Command a combination of Homeworld Security and Stargate Command (With the stargate being stationed in washington? (and be a kind of nice nod to 2010 when that stargate was located in washington and the fact that in the Real world Cheyenne mountain closed down recently). or is it just a new name for Homeworld Security?

[ErikaMariia]

"Quote Originally Posted by Kimberley Jackson View Post
And actually, if you think back about it and watch the characters up until the Zatarc point, the only hints and flirtations were always coming exclusively from Jack.
[snip]
We never see Sam do anything the like until actually very late on the show. The first direct hint is 'Grace', where she actually considers fantasizing about kissing Jack for a moment, but then opts against it.

And actually that behavioral pattern is kind of mirrored later on in Moebius, when he makes the pass on her, and first she declines, but in the very end she's the one taking the first step to kiss him.

I know, it is really nothing but a thought experiment I'm conducting here, but you could well argue it that way as well, because the show never actually gives answers. Or am I mistaken?

I have to disagree here again: there were plenty of moments where Sam's feelings for Jack were more than platonic, the first one coming to mind is her reaction to Jack walking away in the middle of her explanation to talk to Laira at the end of A Hundred Days.

Also, Sam did kiss him back in WoO and looked incredibly awkward in PoV when Jack kissed her double and not just because he was kissing someone that looked like her and she felt weird about it because she didn't feel the same way."


I see it this way: I think that Sam's feelings towards Jack are shown exclusively on her expressions. Jack acts, Sam doesn't. Maybe Jack doesn't see them but we see. But they both know they're there. In the Zatarc scene where they have a private moment it is Sam who says that maybe there something neither of them can admit, Jack says "oh, that" very casually, he knows. I don't think that at that point Sam would ever dream about flirting like Jack. She may respond but not take the initiative There's also that double standard thing which I cannot explain in English but I think everyone knows what I'm talking about.

(sorry for bad quoting I just couldn't get it right so I had to copy paste)

[Kimberley Jackson]

Oooohhh... great arguments, and lots of people even still replied, I was already worried that people might start to tire on the subject.

I'm just gonna work my way up here and there...

I've got to disagree with this, as I cannot take a lot of what happened aboard Prometheus serious considering the ridiculous conclusions Sam came to while suffering from a severe concussion and talking to hallucinations!

True, they were her hallucinations that she was talking to, and they were caused by her concussion. But the fact is, that it was her subconscious mind created them, and the way she interacted with them - the way her subconscious mind portrayed them (cause let's face it they were all different from how they usually are on the show!) - does tell heaps about her own character.
So, for example her subconscious mind did indeed portray Jack as caring and respecting her (knowing he would never make her choose to give up on her career). But some part of her must have also realized that her motives for hanging on to Jack at that point in her life were not because of love, but because loving him prevented her from being hurt otherwise. It is convenient to fall for somebody who is unattainable in a way, because as long as you're holding back for them, you don't have to face your fears regarding relationships.

I'm really not so much into psychology and I know way too little about it to claim that any of my assumptions have a valid ground at all - and I really didn't care much for 'Grace' either - but I wonder how a person who was into that stuff would interpret the episode. Anybody here?

Then, of course, there is also the vague talk in the deleted scene from Trio, which I prefer to think is Sam's way of telling Keller it's none of her business as Sam's marriage to Jack is something personal that she doesn't want to flaunt to her co-workers/subordinates because of their working relationship/history. Then again, depending on what fic idea I have I might also interpret it as nothing has happened yet and they're waiting to get together once Jack retires! Still, the scene was deleted for a reason and Jack was supposed to retire soon, until TPTB came up with SGU and undoubtedly wanted Jack/RDA (and Sam) in it to draw Stargate fans.

Oooohh... I know! The trio scene! LOVE that scene. (And in it Sam explicitly says, when Keller asks her "Sorry, my default mode is just always work". ) In general, though, I think, producers and writer had meant that scene as kind of a confirmation of the S/J relationship (older man in Washington - could only be Jack) without never saying his name once.
There is an audio commentary by Amanda Tapping on the Atlantis DVDs - unfortunately I have forgotten which episode, I'll check that and edit the info in - in which Tapping and two other commentators discuss Sam's private life and Tapping says something about 'Sam's boyfriend Jack' upon which the other commentators shush her quickly like it's one of those 'secrets' that everybody knows, but that you don't say outloud.

So, yeah - I don't know why they didn't officially confirm it. I know how shows alienate their fans, but I don't think that's what would have happened with SG-1, mainly due to the fact that RDA was off the show anyway.

I have to disagree here again: there were plenty of moments where Sam's feelings for Jack were more than platonic, the first one coming to mind is her reaction to Jack walking away in the middle of her explanation to talk to Laira at the end of A Hundred Days.

Also, Sam did kiss him back in WoO and looked incredibly awkward in PoV when Jack kissed her double and not just because he was kissing someone that looked like her and she felt weird about it because she didn't feel the same way.

Okay, point taken, I did not think of 100 Days. Coming to think of it, there's also the dialogue in there between her and Janet, when Sam confesses that she cares about O'Neill very much, and Janet asks her whether that is a problem.
That does show that she cares for O'Neill - is a 'a lot more than she's supposed to' though? Sam does get pretty upset later on when Daniel dies (the first time ) as well, so it might just be in tune with her character to care.

The look at the end is a good point though, actually. I did not think of that.

Good point, I'd forgotten one of the Sams was on maternity leave! I also never interpreted Sam's talk with Jack in Affinity to mean she didn't want children, because if she didn't then she wouldn't have worried about what to do with the baby while she went to work at the SGC.

Oh, no, no!!! Nononono!!! No bringing AU Sams into this, because otherwise this is just gonna get confusing. There can be major differences between Our-Reality Sam (OR Sam) and AU Sam, as we have seen towards the beginning on the show ("Point of View") when the two Sams are so different at first that they even start fighting a little. (OR-Sam makes a comment about not being able to imagine not joining the military and AU Sam replies kinda snappily that she can't imagine to join.) I mean obviously AU characters can have very different motivations and refined streaks of personality that differ.

So I don't think the fact that AU Sam was pregnant and on maternity leave is a valid argument to prove that OR-Sam wants babies as well.

Personally I agree with Kimberly. I just don't see Sam willing to compromise. In "Affinity" she freaked out at the idea of societal pressure to get married and the idea that she'd have kids and would be an absentee parent ("what do I do? Drop the baby off at daycare on the way to some planet in the Crab Nebula?!"). To Sam, as the perfectionist she is, juggling motherhood and her work would seem like a huge sacrifice. I personally feel that she would feel like she was failing if she couldn't devote 100% of her time and energy to both. And, to me, her work is her 'baby' first and foremost.

I think if Sam and Jack did get married, it would be primarily to get rid of the regs situation. Sam never struck me as a "big white wedding" type, even though she had reservations about marrying Pete, I don't think it was just him that was the problem. She didn't seem to enjoy the prospect of things like picking flowers or organising a wedding in general. Those things just didn't seem to interest her.

I suppose that's the only benefit of leaving the ship open-ended, everyone can envisage a scenario that best fits them

Yes, definitely. And I am really surprised at all the different takes on the character(s). I'm really gaining valuable insight here about how much the show actually did allow the viewer to fill their own gaps.

I always kinda wondered how everybody else could see the character of Sam so (what I perceived to be) OOC. After reading a lot of the arguments, I have to say it's true! I still don't agree with a lot of it, but I see the point, and it's absolutely valid to interpret her character that way.

I like your take on their marriage as getting the regs-situation out of the way. It does sound like something they would do, with Jack being rather pragmatic and Sam caring so much about her career. Not romantic... but still somehow feels in character to me.

(OT but I know how you feel re kids, Kim. I'm the same. I've never dreamed of the marriage/kids scenario and the older I get the more I think it's not for me either. I like my friends' kids but I just don't want one of my own. I'm too selfish to give up my job and my hobbies/travelling etc. to look after a child and I don't think it would be fair to expect my partner to do the majority of the child-rearing if I'm not willing to do the same. I'm a scientist of the biological variety so I'll never be well-off enough to afford children AND the lifestyle I want (lottery win aside ). I have a lot of respect for parents and working parents but it's difficult raising a child, your heart has to be in it 100% and I just know I would resent it. I'm also tokophobic. That's kind of a problem too if you want a biological child!

There are plenty of other people in the world who have the opposite view, and that's great. Me not having kids won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things!)

Oh my God!!! AND THANK GOD for stating that, it makes me feel less - weird. Everthing you state reflects almost perfectly the way I feel.
Had to google the word 'tokophobia', and I think in a way that fits for me as well. But if it was just the pregnancy there would be ways around it - like adopting.

Frankly, I've considered it the same: that it won't make much of a difference whether I have kids or not. However, many people, esp. older people tend to disagree. In my country (Germany) they keep bringing up studies about how Germans are slowly dying out because many German families only have 1 child or no children at all. Set aside that research like that seems ridiculously racist to me (at the very least very fixated on national borders), it is also absurd if you take the overall state of the world into account (overpopulation, predicted water-shortage in about 50 years, climate change, etc.).

But I have actually had people accusing me of being selfish over that. I don't know whether it is or not. It depends on the perspective I guess. In the end the desire to reproduce is nothing more than a genetically encoded drive to spread ones own DNA into the human DNA pool, so I sometimes think, isn't it also selfish the other way around? Reproducing with no regard for the impeding troubles future generations will have to deal with due to above-mentioned problems? But it's convenient for me to say that, because I don't want kids so, you can argue either way. And people always will, depending on their own personal wishes.

WAAAAAAYY OFF TOPIC, though.

[Ikorni]

True, they were her hallucinations that she was talking to, and they were caused by her concussion. But the fact is, that it was her subconscious mind created them, and the way she interacted with them - the way her subconscious mind portrayed them (cause let's face it they were all different from how they usually are on the show!) - does tell heaps about her own character.
So, for example her subconscious mind did indeed portray Jack as caring and respecting her (knowing he would never make her choose to give up on her career). But some part of her must have also realized that her motives for hanging on to Jack at that point in her life were not because of love, but because loving him prevented her from being hurt otherwise. It is convenient to fall for somebody who is unattainable in a way, because as long as you're holding back for them, you don't have to face your fears regarding relationships.

I'm really not so much into psychology and I know way too little about it to claim that any of my assumptions have a valid ground at all - and I really didn't care much for 'Grace' either - but I wonder how a person who was into that stuff would interpret the episode. Anybody here?

The point is, that those were her hallucinations and her subconscious talking, and she took them as fact - conclusions that she didn't even quite bother to 'verify' (or at least it's not shown on screen) when she returned. For someone who's a rational scientist who prides herself on her logic, these conclusions were ungrounded. It could of course, be explained in several ways that I've seen in fanfic - that she's cowardly when it comes to matters of the heart, emotionally damaged because of her previous engagement to Hansen, etc, but to me personally, the excuse of hanging onto Jack from afar so it keeps him her safe bet actually stank more of seeing him as a person whom she can fall back on no matter what (and we're talking in a relationship-sense here), rather than simply a refusal to face her fears. It's something I could never accept of that episode but it's my personal interpretation of course.

Oh, no, no!!! Nononono!!! No bringing AU Sams into this, because otherwise this is just gonna get confusing. There can be major differences between Our-Reality Sam (OR Sam) and AU Sam, as we have seen towards the beginning on the show ("Point of View") when the two Sams are so different at first that they even start fighting a little. (OR-Sam makes a comment about not being able to imagine not joining the military and AU Sam replies kinda snappily that she can't imagine to join.) I mean obviously AU characters can have very different motivations and refined streaks of personality that differ.

So I don't think the fact that AU Sam was pregnant and on maternity leave is a valid argument to prove that OR-Sam wants babies as well.

I always thought that an alternate reality provided all possibilities and even some character deviations because of the differing backgrounds that they come from, so I definitely can accept why AU Sam would have children. But I don't think they differ that much that the Sam of 'our' reality can't see herself as a mother at all.

[Kimberley Jackson]

The point is, that those were her hallucinations and her subconscious talking, and she took them as fact - conclusions that she didn't even quite bother to 'verify' (or at least it's not shown on screen) when she returned. For someone who's a rational scientist who prides herself on her logic, these conclusions were ungrounded. It could of course, be explained in several ways that I've seen in fanfic - that she's cowardly when it comes to matters of the heart, emotionally damaged because of her previous engagement to Hansen, etc, but to me personally, the excuse of hanging onto Jack from afar so it keeps him her safe bet actually stank more of seeing him as a person whom she can fall back on no matter what (and we're talking in a relationship-sense here), rather than simply a refusal to face her fears. It's something I could never accept of that episode but it's my personal interpretation of course.

What do you mean by facts? I mean of course they are not facts. This is her subconscious mind we're talking about, and most of it wasn't real - she knows that. It is not like she is under the false impression that the Jack she encountered was the actual real Jack, so she is well aware that she is actually addressing her deepest feelings here.

And I don't think it is so unlikely that in the face of death, her own subconscious would confront her with things that made her unhappy. Also the scene shows a clear insecurity on Sam's part about Jack's feelings. ("Would it make a difference if I quit the Air Force?") It shows that she's really uncertain whether she can actually have a future with Jack - probabaly simply because they never talked about it openly due to regs. She realizes that she bases her entire personal future on a very uncertain outcome. And part of her realizes that it is just that uncertainty that comforted her so much, because it prevented her from having to face consequences. (If someday she might get together with him, right now however they are not allowed to anyway, she doesn't have to take action in the present.)

I always felt Sam to be a person who gets awkward really fast when it comes to personal feelings or personal (or rather intimate) relationships. Sure, she can kick ass in the field, but whenever things get more personal on the show you see her back down. Yes, she is the one confronting Jack about the Zatarc issue, but I think we can all agree that it nearly cost his life until she was willing to do so. She is hardly ever able to express her feelings openly. In season 7 when Jack nearly dies (the episode where Janet dies), we can see that she has trouble explaining what she was feeling. He know it nonetheless of course, because he knows her so well, and that is part of the beauty of their relationship. That they have grown to be so close due to their experiences in the field that their bond is a lot more intimate than probably that of lovers. They've seen each other at their worst and their best and faced death together. In a way, they are closer than any normal couple could ever be. But when it comes to actual expressing it, Sam is awkward.

Well, as you said, different takes on the character, I just didn't understand your facts argument.

[Ikorni]

What do you mean by facts? I mean of course they are not facts. This is her subconscious mind we're talking about, and most of it wasn't real - she knows that. It is not like she is under the false impression that the Jack she encountered was the actual real Jack, so she is well aware that she is actually addressing her deepest feelings here.

From the way things played out after 'Grace', I had always thought she'd taken her subconscious hallucinations as what it really was in reality, hence my loose use of the term 'fact'. If she wasn't under the false impression that the Jack she encountered wasn't the 'real' one, it didn't seem like it from her actions thereafter. In fact, I thought she had clung to this false impression of Jack as one who would behave the same way as he did in her hallucinations, seeing as how quickly she jumped into a new relationship thereafter.

[BrenRen]

Wow, look at all that deep discussion! I... I got nuthin.

Well, except another Gutter-splash. But you saw that coming, I'm sure!



I assure you, I am quite capable of rising to the occasion when the occasion demands.


And if I were to say the occasion demands... and so do I...
Standing at full attention as we speak.
Let's put that to good use, then, shall we?

[IamDKScully]

Ok, so I'm one of those people who really didn't dislike Pete except for the fact that he was with Sam. I know his behavior in the beginning of their relationship was stalkerish, but we don't really hear Sam tell him that her work is "classified." We do hear her say that she "can't tell" him about it. (correct me if I'm wrong there) So he does the background check on her because he has no idea why she's being secretive about things.

Next point. Some others have said that Sam's "realization" about her relationship with Pete when he takes her to "the house" stems from her realizing that she doesn't want the whole 2.5 kids, a house, and a dog scenario. And that her freak out during Affinity also shows that she just doesn't want to get married. I totally disagree!

When Pete proposes, Sam is almost 10 years older and in a very different place than when she was engaged to Jonas. We aren't really given the backstory to explain their breakup but his "control" issues seem to be the main underlying issue. We also aren't really given much of a backstory for Sam at that point and we have no real clue what her personality was like when she graduated from the Academy.

But, flash forward to Pete's proposal and, like I said, Sam is in a very different place. She is independent and devoted to her career but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a soft side. Part of what I like about Chimera is getting to see that. We get to see her get dressed up and be a kind of giggly girly girl for the first time. That's not to say that she was OOC in that episode. We all get a little goofy around people we "like."

I too do not understand why TPTB refused to confirm anything post-Threads. But, I think that the interactions make it perfectly clear that Sam's heart belongs to Jack () and THAT is why she broke her engagement to Pete. (I think that scene with her dad says it all!) Her comments in Affinity come from her trying to justify saying NO to Pete (I believe that that scene is her begging Jack to stop her!). What then turns her around and makes her say Yes? A desire for something "normal" outside of the SGC maybe or the desire to have a relationship where she doesn't have to sneak around or worry that something she says or an errant look is going to get her in trouble? (Just MHO )

[IamDKScully]

Wow, look at all that deep discussion! I... I got nuthin.

Well, except another Gutter-splash. But you saw that coming, I'm sure!


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63...usResize11.jpg
I assure you, I am quite capable of rising to the occasion when the occasion demands.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63...usResize12.jpg
And if I were to say the occasion demands... and so do I...
Standing at full attention as we speak.
Let's put that to good use, then, shall we?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63...usResize13.jpg

it!!!

[Kimberley Jackson]

If she wasn't under the false impression that the Jack she encountered wasn't the 'real' one, it didn't seem like it from her actions thereafter. In fact, I thought she had clung to this false impression of Jack as one who would behave the same way as he did in her hallucinations, seeing as how quickly she jumped into a new relationship thereafter.

But nothing about the encounter was actually about Jack. The defining factor is her sub-conscious in the form of Jack asking her the question "Has it ever occured to you that I might not be the problem here?". That shows it: it isn't about Jack, or whether he loves her, or is willing to give them a chance.

It is her realizing her own passiveness about the situation.

Whether or not her relationship with Pete afterwards - their first date was setup by her brother, let's not forget about that either - that she wanted to do something about her passiveness. In a way, I think, the character needed Pete, in order to realize what she didn't want.

In a way, that entire story arc, to me represents a very beautiful growing up of the character. She realizes in Grace, that part of the problem (aside from the regs being the other) is she herself. In a way, I think, she tries to prove to herself, that she can have with Pete what she longed to have with Jack - her security shield. Just that she can actually have it.

It doesn't work out that way, because the experience with Pete shows her, that she is in love with Jack, and it gives her the courage to finally take action and talk to him in "Threads" - unfortunately interrupted by Kerry.

Don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[Kimberley Jackson]

Wow, look at all that deep discussion! I... I got nuthin.

Well, except another Gutter-splash. But you saw that coming, I'm sure!

I assure you, I am quite capable of rising to the occasion when the occasion demands.

And if I were to say the occasion demands... and so do I...
Standing at full attention as we speak.
Let's put that to good use, then, shall we?

I love your gutter splashes!!!