Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Ikorni]

it seems the writers have made more of the s/j being *sam's* journey than sam and jack's. even when i go to websites that give a synopsis of the sam and jack characters, they make a deal of sam's feelings for jack, but kind of glaze it over (or completely ignore it) for jack. uh, jack *was* there during this.

i don't know if they labeled it more onto sam b/c amanda made a bigger deal of the storyline, or pulled it away from jack b/c rick didn't really care, or amanda and rick had nothing to do with it and it was just some semi chauvinistic way of telling the story...

the only love interests jack has had were Kynthia, laira, and kerry, all of which he actually slept with. sam's love interests were just pete: the others were either one-sided interest or mutual interest without it going anywhere.

i bring this all up, b/c i don't really know if jack is more loyal to 'them'...

i'm getting confused.

maybe it's more of the stuff amanda's said over time that makes us feel that jack would be more loyal.

Yeah, I think it could be a matter of portrayal too. It was always more skewed towards 'Sam's journey' as you put it, or at least that's the general feeling I got. And in that sense, I felt that there was also where the sympathy lay.

[hedwig]

Yep, both were hurt. I was just simply arguing for the fact that it wasn't all Jack who was guilty of letting things slide.

That was the subject of the S/J Ship Wars within our own thread a few years ago. People taking sides and pointing fingers at the other as to who was more guilty.

My own opinion is that neither one was guilty. Neither one did anything, so neither one was guilty ... or both were equally guilty.

As to the circumstances around getting involved with Pete ... she was recovering from a huge concussion, she misinterpreted the messages in her delusions on the Prometheus, and she didn't think Jack felt the same about her any longer, so why shouldn't she try to get that life he was always pushing her to do? She likely felt that by his pushing, he was effectively saying "I don't want you anymore". She could have asked, but how many people in real life ever do that? Ask for an honest answer? They're too afraid of what the answer might be, and so choose to leave things as they are in order to be safe. Jack was doing the same thing; wanting to be safe.

As far as "loyalty" is concerned, I don't think it has anything to do with their relationship. They never talked about it. They never made any promises to each other. They never said "I'll wait for you". Neither ever asked if they would or could wait. So loyalty doesn't even enter the picture, as far as I'm concerned. If they had discussed a relationship with each other, and then Sam (or Jack) moved on anyway, maybe then I'd feel differently.

As for holding out longer, Jack was married for a long time. Daniel was married for a year. Teal'c had been married long enough to have a teen-aged son. Why should Sam wait for something she might never get? She wanted to have the same (or her own) experience the guys had been fortunate enough to have.

[trupi]

Both were jerks. But most people are when it comes to relationships!

[SGSuzi]

That was the subject of the S/J Ship Wars within our own thread a few years ago. People taking sides and pointing fingers at the other as to who was more guilty.

My own opinion is that neither one was guilty. Neither one did anything, so neither one was guilty ... or both were equally guilty.

As to the circumstances around getting involved with Pete ... she was recovering from a huge concussion, she misinterpreted the messages in her delusions on the Prometheus, and she didn't think Jack felt the same about her any longer, so why shouldn't she try to get that life he was always pushing her to do? She likely felt that by his pushing, he was effectively saying "I don't want you anymore". She could have asked, but how many people in real life ever do that? Ask for an honest answer? They're too afraid of what the answer might be, and so choose to leave things as they are in order to be safe. Jack was doing the same thing; wanting to be safe.

As far as "loyalty" is concerned, I don't think it has anything to do with their relationship. They never talked about it. They never made any promises to each other. They never said "I'll wait for you". Neither ever asked if they would or could wait. So loyalty doesn't even enter the picture, as far as I'm concerned. If they had discussed a relationship with each other, and then Sam (or Jack) moved on anyway, maybe then I'd feel differently.

As for holding out longer, Jack was married for a long time. Daniel was married for a year. Teal'c had been married long enough to have a teen-aged son. Why should Sam wait for something she might never get? She wanted to have the same (or her own) experience the guys had been fortunate enough to have.

virtual green again

ive never felt either were to blame, i could bang their heads together a lot of the time but as you said there were no promises, no arrangements.

I do think it did end up being sided to Sam in the later seasons, she seemed to be the one who was more emotionally messed up by it, but that can just be a female perspective too as women do tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves alot more than men. I still dont understand how Sam managed to interopret the grace hallucination quite the way she did, i personally didnt hear anything in what Jack said that sounded like he didnt want her, he told her plainly to just ask, and told her he would always be there for her, but hey she had banged her head i guess....lol

[Ikorni]

I'm curious though, what happened at the end of the Ship wars? Did it end in a 'stalemate' so to speak?

[hedwig]

I'm curious though, what happened at the end of the Ship wars? Did it end in a 'stalemate' so to speak?

Pretty much.

[Lucycat]

The Best Shippy Moment is . . .

Season 2: Out of Mind – Jack is mesmerized by Sam’s naked bod (5)

vs.

Season 7: Death Knell: Jack holds Sam after they take down the Super Soldier (14)

Giving Out of Mind some love... I really enjoyed that episode!!

[majorsal]

I have a HUGE problem with the word "allowing". Jack hasn't got the right (no matter how much he loves her) to "allow" her anything in her private life. It's completely her choice. If there's any "allowing" being done, it's Jack allowing himself to stand back and do nothing that she chooses to do, unless he wants to step up and declare his love for her.

the word allow can have some different meanings. (danged english language )

this dictionary meaning is what i meant: to permit by neglect, oversight, or the like: to allow a door to remain open.

[majorsal]

I don't think either of them did anything wrong. They both agreed to leave it in the room all those years ago, even though it was Sams idea. They both had numerous opportunities to say something or do something about it. It was a forbidden relationship and they both in their own way tried to find ways not to love each other. At the end of the day, they came to their senses, they were both at the same point and on the same page when Jack opened that closed room door and Sam walked in.

it didn't have to be forbidden. yeah, the military doesn't want them shacking up, BUT, they could have done things to make the getting together allowed, just neither one wanted to do it at that time.

i just say this, b/c i don't view the s/j thing as forbidden fruit in the moral kind of things.

also, how did jack open that close door?

[majorsal]

That was the subject of the S/J Ship Wars within our own thread a few years ago. People taking sides and pointing fingers at the other as to who was more guilty.

My own opinion is that neither one was guilty. Neither one did anything, so neither one was guilty ... or both were equally guilty.

As to the circumstances around getting involved with Pete ... she was recovering from a huge concussion, she misinterpreted the messages in her delusions on the Prometheus, and she didn't think Jack felt the same about her any longer, so why shouldn't she try to get that life he was always pushing her to do? She likely felt that by his pushing, he was effectively saying "I don't want you anymore". She could have asked, but how many people in real life ever do that? Ask for an honest answer? They're too afraid of what the answer might be, and so choose to leave things as they are in order to be safe. Jack was doing the same thing; wanting to be safe.

As far as "loyalty" is concerned, I don't think it has anything to do with their relationship. They never talked about it. They never made any promises to each other. They never said "I'll wait for you". Neither ever asked if they would or could wait. So loyalty doesn't even enter the picture, as far as I'm concerned. If they had discussed a relationship with each other, and then Sam (or Jack) moved on anyway, maybe then I'd feel differently.

As for holding out longer, Jack was married for a long time. Daniel was married for a year. Teal'c had been married long enough to have a teen-aged son. Why should Sam wait for something she might never get? She wanted to have the same (or her own) experience the guys had been fortunate enough to have.

thought provoking. i love it!!

[majorsal]

I do think it did end up being sided to Sam in the later seasons, she seemed to be the one who was more emotionally messed up by it, but that can just be a female perspective too as women do tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves alot more than men. I still dont understand how Sam managed to interopret the grace hallucination quite the way she did, i personally didnt hear anything in what Jack said that sounded like he didnt want her, he told her plainly to just ask, and told her he would always be there for her, but hey she had banged her head i guess....lol

if i remember right (or i've put this into my head to explain things), sam was doubting her feelings for jack as much as she doubted his for her.

okay, i had to go read the transcript to make sure of where i got that idea. in the trans, sam's questioning jack's feelings... but since this is, basically, sam talking to herself, then it comes off as sam not being *sure* of what jack feels for her anymore.

sometimes you can put motive to a character's actions and reactions. but sometimes something is just plain badly written, and it takes a character into a place you never thought they'd go, *just* to service a storyline the writers wanted to do. this, to me, is what 'chimera' and the whole pete-sam storyline was.

not that sam and jack didn't need some nudging to get them out of their shippy rut, but putting a boyfriend for sam (especially how badly it was done) wasn't *needed* to pull sam and jack together.

~i don't view 'grace' as sam saying goodbye to jack, b/c to me, it showed just how much she wanted and needed him. so to go from 'grace' to 'chimera'... no logic, no finesse... bad writing.

(i also saw some of this kind of writing on other shows, including 'sanctuary')

[Ikorni]

if i remember right (or i've put this into my head to explain things), sam was doubting her feelings for jack as much as she doubted his for her.

okay, i had to go read the transcript to make sure of where i got that idea. in the trans, sam's questioning jack's feelings... but since this is, basically, sam talking to herself, then it comes off as sam not being *sure* of what jack feels for her anymore.

sometimes you can put motive to a character's actions and reactions. but sometimes something is just plain badly written, and it takes a character into a place you never thought they'd go, *just* to service a storyline the writers wanted to do. this, to me, is what 'chimera' and the whole pete-sam storyline was.

not that sam and jack didn't need some nudging to get them out of their shippy rut, but putting a boyfriend for sam (especially how badly it was done) wasn't *needed* to pull sam and jack together.

~i don't view 'grace' as sam saying goodbye to jack, b/c to me, it showed just how much she wanted and needed him. so to go from 'grace' to 'chimera'... no logic, no finesse... bad writing.

(i also saw some of this kind of writing on other shows, including 'sanctuary')

Just how I thought.

[hedwig]

it didn't have to be forbidden. yeah, the military doesn't want them shacking up, BUT, they could have done things to make the getting together allowed, just neither one wanted to do it at that time.

i just say this, b/c i don't view the s/j thing as forbidden fruit in the moral kind of things.

also, how did jack open that close door?

Nobody ever said the closed door was locked. That's fanon that claims that.

Sam said the subject didn't need to leave the room. Jack said "we're okay with that"? End of subject. Nothing was ever said about locking the door.

Now if that door had been boarded up, plastered over, and then wallpapered or painted ... he might have had trouble find it. But it was easy to open.

[hlndncr]

The Best Shippy Moment is . . .

Season 2: Out of Mind – Jack is mesmerized by Sam’s naked bod (5)

vs.

Season 7: Death Knell: Jack holds Sam after they take down the Super Soldier (14)

Last chance to vote shippers!

This is the final round of our annual Best of the Ship tournament.

Do you want to help pull out a come from behind victory for the gutter dwellers among you? Stand up and be counted!

Do you want to declare your love of angst and wump? Join the march to victory!

But don't delay. Your last chance to let your voice be heard is now!

Polls close in two hours.

[SGSuzi]

Nobody ever said the closed door was locked. That's fanon that claims that.

Sam said the subject didn't need to leave the room. Jack said "we're okay with that"? End of subject. Nothing was ever said about locking the door.

Now if that door had been boarded up, plastered over, and then wallpapered or painted ... he might have had trouble find it. But it was easy to open.

kind of how i felt, they agreed to leave it in the room at that point and yes it was pretty easy to open the door, it just had to be at a time when both parties were ready to move on together to make it work.

as for whoever asked about me saying it was a forbidden relationship, i meant that in their minds it was forbidden, yes they could have done things to make it work, but they wwrent ready to do that therefore until they were it was forbidden for them to pursue it any further