Originally posted by majorsal
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Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0
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Originally posted by Ikorni View PostYep, both were hurt. I was just simply arguing for the fact that it wasn't all Jack who was guilty of letting things slide.
My own opinion is that neither one was guilty. Neither one did anything, so neither one was guilty ... or both were equally guilty.
As to the circumstances around getting involved with Pete ... she was recovering from a huge concussion, she misinterpreted the messages in her delusions on the Prometheus, and she didn't think Jack felt the same about her any longer, so why shouldn't she try to get that life he was always pushing her to do? She likely felt that by his pushing, he was effectively saying "I don't want you anymore". She could have asked, but how many people in real life ever do that? Ask for an honest answer? They're too afraid of what the answer might be, and so choose to leave things as they are in order to be safe. Jack was doing the same thing; wanting to be safe.
As far as "loyalty" is concerned, I don't think it has anything to do with their relationship. They never talked about it. They never made any promises to each other. They never said "I'll wait for you". Neither ever asked if they would or could wait. So loyalty doesn't even enter the picture, as far as I'm concerned. If they had discussed a relationship with each other, and then Sam (or Jack) moved on anyway, maybe then I'd feel differently.
As for holding out longer, Jack was married for a long time. Daniel was married for a year. Teal'c had been married long enough to have a teen-aged son. Why should Sam wait for something she might never get? She wanted to have the same (or her own) experience the guys had been fortunate enough to have.
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Originally posted by hedwig View PostThat was the subject of the S/J Ship Wars within our own thread a few years ago. People taking sides and pointing fingers at the other as to who was more guilty.
My own opinion is that neither one was guilty. Neither one did anything, so neither one was guilty ... or both were equally guilty.
As to the circumstances around getting involved with Pete ... she was recovering from a huge concussion, she misinterpreted the messages in her delusions on the Prometheus, and she didn't think Jack felt the same about her any longer, so why shouldn't she try to get that life he was always pushing her to do? She likely felt that by his pushing, he was effectively saying "I don't want you anymore". She could have asked, but how many people in real life ever do that? Ask for an honest answer? They're too afraid of what the answer might be, and so choose to leave things as they are in order to be safe. Jack was doing the same thing; wanting to be safe.
As far as "loyalty" is concerned, I don't think it has anything to do with their relationship. They never talked about it. They never made any promises to each other. They never said "I'll wait for you". Neither ever asked if they would or could wait. So loyalty doesn't even enter the picture, as far as I'm concerned. If they had discussed a relationship with each other, and then Sam (or Jack) moved on anyway, maybe then I'd feel differently.
As for holding out longer, Jack was married for a long time. Daniel was married for a year. Teal'c had been married long enough to have a teen-aged son. Why should Sam wait for something she might never get? She wanted to have the same (or her own) experience the guys had been fortunate enough to have.
ive never felt either were to blame, i could bang their heads together a lot of the time but as you said there were no promises, no arrangements.
I do think it did end up being sided to Sam in the later seasons, she seemed to be the one who was more emotionally messed up by it, but that can just be a female perspective too as women do tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves alot more than men. I still dont understand how Sam managed to interopret the grace hallucination quite the way she did, i personally didnt hear anything in what Jack said that sounded like he didnt want her, he told her plainly to just ask, and told her he would always be there for her, but hey she had banged her head i guess....lolsigpic
Thanks to the wonderful Meredithe5 for the awesome sig
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Originally posted by Ikorni View PostI'm curious though, what happened at the end of the Ship wars? Did it end in a 'stalemate' so to speak?
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Originally posted by hedwig View PostI have a HUGE problem with the word "allowing". Jack hasn't got the right (no matter how much he loves her) to "allow" her anything in her private life. It's completely her choice. If there's any "allowing" being done, it's Jack allowing himself to stand back and do nothing that she chooses to do, unless he wants to step up and declare his love for her.
this dictionary meaning is what i meant: to permit by neglect, oversight, or the like: to allow a door to remain open.sally
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Originally posted by SGSuzi View PostI don't think either of them did anything wrong. They both agreed to leave it in the room all those years ago, even though it was Sams idea. They both had numerous opportunities to say something or do something about it. It was a forbidden relationship and they both in their own way tried to find ways not to love each other. At the end of the day, they came to their senses, they were both at the same point and on the same page when Jack opened that closed room door and Sam walked in.
i just say this, b/c i don't view the s/j thing as forbidden fruit in the moral kind of things.
also, how did jack open that close door?sally
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Originally posted by hedwig View PostThat was the subject of the S/J Ship Wars within our own thread a few years ago. People taking sides and pointing fingers at the other as to who was more guilty.
My own opinion is that neither one was guilty. Neither one did anything, so neither one was guilty ... or both were equally guilty.
As to the circumstances around getting involved with Pete ... she was recovering from a huge concussion, she misinterpreted the messages in her delusions on the Prometheus, and she didn't think Jack felt the same about her any longer, so why shouldn't she try to get that life he was always pushing her to do? She likely felt that by his pushing, he was effectively saying "I don't want you anymore". She could have asked, but how many people in real life ever do that? Ask for an honest answer? They're too afraid of what the answer might be, and so choose to leave things as they are in order to be safe. Jack was doing the same thing; wanting to be safe.
As far as "loyalty" is concerned, I don't think it has anything to do with their relationship. They never talked about it. They never made any promises to each other. They never said "I'll wait for you". Neither ever asked if they would or could wait. So loyalty doesn't even enter the picture, as far as I'm concerned. If they had discussed a relationship with each other, and then Sam (or Jack) moved on anyway, maybe then I'd feel differently.
As for holding out longer, Jack was married for a long time. Daniel was married for a year. Teal'c had been married long enough to have a teen-aged son. Why should Sam wait for something she might never get? She wanted to have the same (or her own) experience the guys had been fortunate enough to have.sally
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Originally posted by SGSuzi View PostI do think it did end up being sided to Sam in the later seasons, she seemed to be the one who was more emotionally messed up by it, but that can just be a female perspective too as women do tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves alot more than men. I still dont understand how Sam managed to interopret the grace hallucination quite the way she did, i personally didnt hear anything in what Jack said that sounded like he didnt want her, he told her plainly to just ask, and told her he would always be there for her, but hey she had banged her head i guess....lol
okay, i had to go read the transcript to make sure of where i got that idea. in the trans, sam's questioning jack's feelings... but since this is, basically, sam talking to herself, then it comes off as sam not being *sure* of what jack feels for her anymore.
sometimes you can put motive to a character's actions and reactions. but sometimes something is just plain badly written, and it takes a character into a place you never thought they'd go, *just* to service a storyline the writers wanted to do. this, to me, is what 'chimera' and the whole pete-sam storyline was.
not that sam and jack didn't need some nudging to get them out of their shippy rut, but putting a boyfriend for sam (especially how badly it was done) wasn't *needed* to pull sam and jack together.
~i don't view 'grace' as sam saying goodbye to jack, b/c to me, it showed just how much she wanted and needed him. so to go from 'grace' to 'chimera'... no logic, no finesse... bad writing.
(i also saw some of this kind of writing on other shows, including 'sanctuary')sally
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Originally posted by majorsal View Postif i remember right (or i've put this into my head to explain things), sam was doubting her feelings for jack as much as she doubted his for her.
okay, i had to go read the transcript to make sure of where i got that idea. in the trans, sam's questioning jack's feelings... but since this is, basically, sam talking to herself, then it comes off as sam not being *sure* of what jack feels for her anymore.
sometimes you can put motive to a character's actions and reactions. but sometimes something is just plain badly written, and it takes a character into a place you never thought they'd go, *just* to service a storyline the writers wanted to do. this, to me, is what 'chimera' and the whole pete-sam storyline was.
not that sam and jack didn't need some nudging to get them out of their shippy rut, but putting a boyfriend for sam (especially how badly it was done) wasn't *needed* to pull sam and jack together.
~i don't view 'grace' as sam saying goodbye to jack, b/c to me, it showed just how much she wanted and needed him. so to go from 'grace' to 'chimera'... no logic, no finesse... bad writing.
(i also saw some of this kind of writing on other shows, including 'sanctuary')
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Originally posted by majorsal View Postit didn't have to be forbidden. yeah, the military doesn't want them shacking up, BUT, they could have done things to make the getting together allowed, just neither one wanted to do it at that time.
i just say this, b/c i don't view the s/j thing as forbidden fruit in the moral kind of things.
also, how did jack open that close door?
Sam said the subject didn't need to leave the room. Jack said "we're okay with that"? End of subject. Nothing was ever said about locking the door.
Now if that door had been boarded up, plastered over, and then wallpapered or painted ... he might have had trouble find it. But it was easy to open.
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The Best Shippy Moment is . . .
Season 2: Out of Mind – Jack is mesmerized by Sam’s naked bod (5)
vs.
Season 7: Death Knell: Jack holds Sam after they take down the Super Soldier (14)
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Originally posted by hedwig View PostNobody ever said the closed door was locked. That's fanon that claims that.
Sam said the subject didn't need to leave the room. Jack said "we're okay with that"? End of subject. Nothing was ever said about locking the door.
Now if that door had been boarded up, plastered over, and then wallpapered or painted ... he might have had trouble find it. But it was easy to open.
as for whoever asked about me saying it was a forbidden relationship, i meant that in their minds it was forbidden, yes they could have done things to make it work, but they wwrent ready to do that therefore until they were it was forbidden for them to pursue it any furthersigpic
Thanks to the wonderful Meredithe5 for the awesome sig
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