Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Jack4Sam]

i think sam put out many feelers for jack to respond, but i also think she was putting out mixed signals because she kept up the relationship with pete.

sam: that i'm worth it.

jack: you are. times ten million stars.

Oh so sweet drabble Sal!

Nothing but the direct approach would work with Jack unfortunately. I wasn't pleased with his "I wouldn't be here" but I was so proud of Sam for taking that step and asking, it must have been scary for her, and I loved her for it. I wanted to slap Jack on the back of the head.

[Jack4Sam]

I wasn't forgetting that. I was merely pointing out that there was nothing said about a "lock".

In fact, her statement was:

CARTER: None of this has to leave this room.

And Jack replies something like: "And we're okay with that?"

And then they get interrupted.

Yes, the whole "room" thing is fan based. It wasn't Sam saying "we can't talk about our feelings for each other" it was just her saying "this doesn't have to be an issue". If they did make an issue of it, the situation would have become a very sticky one indeed.

[majorsal]

Remember, Sam's "leaving it in the room" was for them both, militarily. If she didn't agree she would be required to report the incident which would have meant (transfer) and their Grand Love (the quest/mission/show) couldn't have continued.

i like the 'grand love' idea, but only if it leads somewhere!

[Jack4Sam]

i like the 'grand love' idea, but only if it leads somewhere!

YES!!!

[picardythirds]

Attempted? I think I rather succeeded!!

You're right, though. She did make it sound like it'd be the darker side of edgy. But while Sam could never be Helen Magnus (nor would I want her to be; I find Magnus deliciously unique and a wholly singular entity), I do think it'd be fun to see Sam face some of the decisions Jack had to make. They kind of touch on it in SG-U, when Sam has the Hammond bug out without two of her 302s, but I want them to take it farther than that.

For example, could Sam have made Jack's same decision at the end of "The Other Side"? How about if *she* were the one in command in "Scorched Earth". Well, Scorched Earth is a bad example, because we've already explored what Sam might have done differently, but what if there was some factors that limited her options and forced her to do something distasteful, or had her choose between two horrible evils without a single better option.

I want her to face those kinds of situations, and see what she would do with them. The vanilla moments of peril we got in Season 8 just didn't even come close to sating my curiosity. *That*'s the "edgy" I want to see.

Once again, Selene says what I think!

Agreed! They wimped out on showing Sam as a true leader/commanding officer in both season 8 AND atlantis. Actually, she showed more leadership spirit in some respects than in season 8! She's always been a leader in the scientific side of things, able to lead a team of scientists but only a few times have we actually seen her command

I agree I would have liked to see Sam in more command scenarios. But in making the tough decisions I just don't see her turning into a dark and moody person. She has faced some real difficulties and trauma over the years. They have tempered and seasoned her but not taken away from the brightness of her personality. She is at heart a gentle soul. And that's what I love about her character. She has grit, but she is not coarse or hard.

that's just not the type of person she is. Granted everyone probably has a trigger that makes them turn but it will take A LOT to make Sam turn dark side. Especially having spent so long with "there's always another side to every story" Daniel.

First time...

... Sam and Jack's shippy bubble bursts when memories of their respective ranks (and the regs) come back

Oh the ANGST when she says "Sir"..........*runs into the cavern and finds herself a nice dark corner*

<snip>
No martyrdom, simply the pained stepping back from what he believes he/they cannot have.

Editing to add: I've always thought that be delaying their own "big finish," they were engaging in a greater, more operatic display of love, a "Grand Love," if you will. Each time they go somewhere together, face death together, save the planet together, they deepen their love. But...that may be too meta.

I believe in the middle ages that was called a "courtly love" *sigh*

[XFchemist]

An old vid of mines for the discussion you are having

[Jack4Sam]

An old vid of mines for the discussion you are having

IT WASN'T!!!!

Love the vid!

[RamonaThePest]

Well, she *might* have to go back and be Sam Carter if your petition goes through for the 3rd movie! Then you can see her as an edgy career woman with husband and child.

Petition? Where do I sign up?

I know I'm going to get all sorts of flack for saying this but when I read what AT said my first thought was that she wouldn't be a very good actress if she can't play someone she's not. Now I get what she's saying about growing into a character and personally changing over time. But still, a good actress doesn't have to be just like the character she portrays, and a good director wouldn't let her make Sam into Magnus. He or she would help her find the right character again.

IMO Sam may be more confident now (as she is older, more experienced and yes, very happy in her personal life) but never edgy.

You know, I always noticed some edge to Sam but felt she had to take a back seat to showing it because to do so was unnecessay as her commanding officer always povided the needed edge to meet whatever situation SG-1 faced. Whenever Jack didnot acompany them, leaving her in command (or even if Jack wasn't around on base). I recall her calling Jonas "chicken sh--". Her cheekyness in season one with quick comebacks to Jack; or example: about her decorating choices in Broca Divide; her telling a colonel "no" in The First Commandment (and didn't she disobey orders by going down into the camp to come to the aid of the villager being beaten in that episode?; and the way she will put someone in their place when necessary; the Jack-type snarkyness whenever she's in command. It really came out in Seasons 9-10. I can't remember all instances, but she was tough and always edgy AT CERTAIN TIMES to me.

i'll petition on twitter if i'm not alone!

Spoiler:

(i have a stalker there that gets others to harass me about tweeting mgm)

I'm not on Twitter, majorsal. And I hope you're joking about being harassed?

Spoiled for length

Spoiler:

Edgy can be interpreted as different things in different contexts.

After serving for years under Jack, Sam definitely has the capacity to lurk on the edge of insubordination in the name of doing something she knew to be right.

She's had enough harrowing experiences to keep her wary and on edge in certain situations.

She's confident enough in herself that she can push past the edge of her comfort zone, and be awesome at it.

Okay, I might just be being silly (as I am wont to do) as I'm sure you're taking it to mean "edgy" as in rebellious, daring, unpredictable... But even then, Sam is those things in her own way.

In reference to one of my fave chick flicks, Sam is one of those girls to whom you "don't ever say never".

I mean, just by being a woman in the military (let alone a brilliant astrophysicist/pilot) Sam could be considered edgy. She just doesn't play it off as being that way. She's just Sam.

P.S. This isn't flak. Just some creative discourse. You've brought up something interesting. We should dig deeper.

Oh. Selene said what I said already...only better

Spoilered for length

Spoiler:

Exactly.

My first love of sci-fi was the original Star Trek. Granted, I got hooked during the syndication reruns in the early 70s, but hooked I was! So when they did the first movie 10 years after the final season I was right there watching it on the big screen and still loving all of the crew in all their glorious "agedness." And as for me, they were all doing pretty darn okay!!

So...

I do NOT expect a new movie/episode of SG-1 to pick up where the last one left off. I fully expect and hope to see that Sam, Jack and LIFE has moved on.

I would love to see AT and RDA take up the challenge of shifting Sam and Jack from what they last played to the thing that was tested (positively, as far as I'm concerned) and hinted at for so many years then finally "promised" albeit never confirmed.

Sam, Jack and Stargate SG-1 deserve finality. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life here at Gateworld but I truly do believe that Sam and Jack being a couple is the biggest argument out there and the PTB (glares at SyFy...grrrrr) failed to settled it.

Wow! For some reason, reading this filled me with dread for them to ever make another movie - I just fear they would chicken out again and we'd see a Jack soooo old and they're still not together, forever crushing my hopes. *despair*.

I agree but it still would have been fun watching Pete squirm under the Colonel stare Jack has when the shutters are down.

It was already painful enough watching Pete be too dumb to squirm under Jacob's gaze. Grinning like a buffoon and not knowing when to be quiet. That said, yeah I still would've wanted to see it. I bet Jack could have made him realize what a dweeb he is and make him squirm.

It's not martyrdom...per se.

SNIPPED FOR LENGTH

I dislike the popular fanon of Jack as the "beat up old relic who doesn't deserve her" storyline. Jack is a strong, dynamic man capable of deep love. That's been shown time and again. Just as Sam is. Both of them have an incredibly strong sense of duty. So strong, in fact, that they are willing to sublimate their own gratification for the greater good.

No martyrdom, simply the pained stepping back from what he believes he/they cannot have.

Editing to add: I've always thought that be delaying their own "big finish," they were engaging in a greater, more operatic display of love, a "Grand Love," if you will. Each time they go somewhere together, face death together, save the planet together, they deepen their love. But...that may be too meta.

This^. I see Jack as someone with a deep self loathing. I think he hated himself even before what happened to Charlie. Black Ops operatives have to do some pretty distasteful things, and Sam's so beautiful, brilliant, young and perfect.

I don't thinks so. She asked him directly "What about you? If things had been different..." It was clear she was desperate to talk them. That was the most she had put herself out there in a long time, and Jack didn't budge and help the situation AT ALL. One of the most frustrating moments I had with Jack. I still don't understand why he said "I wouldn't be here." Any ideasanyone?

I agree with Jack4Sam. I think most of us think that JACK doesn't feel he's worthy, not the fanfiction writers who write him that way, but do it because they believe HE feels that way. I also think that big bad Jack O'Neill who laughs in the face of danger, is a COWARD when it comes to life because in order to really live it and move on, he would have to forgive himself for Charlie first. He probably feels forgiving himself is a betrayal of Charlie. And loving Sam would be a different type of responsibility than he has for her and the team's physical lives in the field. In his view, He would be responsible for her HAPPINESS and he thinks for sure, knowing the darkness he surrounds himself with at home alone after he can stop joking and just be...he thinks he would screw up her life. I love that most fanfic writers interpret Jack the way that I see him too. Although most people won't agree with my use of the word "coward".

As to that stupid line "I wouldn't be here" - I don't know what to make of that other than I can picture TPTB sitting around a conference table going "what can we have him say that would be sufficiently vague enough to give shippers and anti shippers their own interpretation. Problem is, they came up with such a stupid line that all it creates is puzzlement. I can turn ANYTHING into ship except that stupidness!

[Jack4Sam]

I agree with Jack4Sam. I think most of us think that JACK doesn't feel he's worthy, not the fanfiction writers who write him that way, but do it because they believe HE feels that way. I also think that big bad Jack O'Neill who laughs in the face of danger, is a COWARD when it comes to life because in order to really live it and move on, he would have to forgive himself for Charlie first. He probably feels forgiving himself is a betrayal of Charlie. And loving Sam would be a different type of responsibility than he has for her and the team's physical lives in the field. In his view, He would be responsible for her HAPPINESS and he thinks for sure, knowing the darkness he surrounds himself with at home alone after he can stop joking and just be...he thinks he would screw up her life. I love that most fanfic writers interpret Jack the way that I see him too. Although most people won't agree with my use of the word "coward".

Yes! Yes! A thousand times "Yes!". I certainly write him like that, and enjoy reading that characterization from other writers as well as I think it's a true representation of who he is in terms of canon. We see this really come to light in Abyss, when he refused to even consider Daniels suggestion of ascension. The way I saw that was that he viewed ascension as something unattainable by a stained soul like his, and was angry that Daniel was wasting his time instead of doing what he viewed was the only way he could ever be freed. That told me that death is the most Jack hopes for in terms of his eternal life. Woah, sorry for zooming off topic there. But yes! Yes! Yes! I agree with everything you said, including the word "coward". Sam's a coward too in that regard - they're perfect for each other!

[hlndncr]

You know, I always noticed some edge to Sam but felt she had to take a back seat to showing it because to do so was unnecessay as her commanding officer always povided the needed edge to meet whatever situation SG-1 faced. Whenever Jack didnot acompany them, leaving her in command (or even if Jack wasn't around on base). I recall her calling Jonas "chicken sh--". Her cheekyness in season one with quick comebacks to Jack; or example: about her decorating choices in Broca Divide; her telling a colonel "no" in The First Commandment (and didn't she disobey orders by going down into the camp to come to the aid of the villager being beaten in that episode?; and the way she will put someone in their place when necessary; the Jack-type snarkyness whenever she's in command. It really came out in Seasons 9-10. I can't remember all instances, but she was tough and always edgy AT CERTAIN TIMES to me.

I can't agree with you. Those examples came out of season 1 when the writers didn't have a handle on Sam's character and tried to make her into a gungho feminazi. And in S9-10 they had written off Sam's character and did tremendous damage to her IMO. So not at all examples of who Sam really is. And that off-color statement in S6 to Jonas was out of the blue, out of character and I always hated it - a total aberation.

[fems]

Petition? Where do I sign up?




You know, I always noticed some edge to Sam but felt she had to take a back seat to showing it because to do so was unnecessay as her commanding officer always povided the needed edge to meet whatever situation SG-1 faced. Whenever Jack didnot acompany them, leaving her in command (or even if Jack wasn't around on base). I recall her calling Jonas "chicken sh--". Her cheekyness in season one with quick comebacks to Jack; or example: about her decorating choices in Broca Divide; her telling a colonel "no" in The First Commandment (and didn't she disobey orders by going down into the camp to come to the aid of the villager being beaten in that episode?; and the way she will put someone in their place when necessary; the Jack-type snarkyness whenever she's in command. It really came out in Seasons 9-10. I can't remember all instances, but she was tough and always edgy AT CERTAIN TIMES to me.



I'm not on Twitter, majorsal. And I hope you're joking about being harassed?




Oh. Selene said what I said already...only better




Wow! For some reason, reading this filled me with dread for them to ever make another movie - I just fear they would chicken out again and we'd see a Jack soooo old and they're still not together, forever crushing my hopes. *despair*.




It was already painful enough watching Pete be too dumb to squirm under Jacob's gaze. Grinning like a buffoon and not knowing when to be quiet. That said, yeah I still would've wanted to see it. I bet Jack could have made him realize what a dweeb he is and make him squirm.






I agree with Jack4Sam. I think most of us think that JACK doesn't feel he's worthy, not the fanfiction writers who write him that way, but do it because they believe HE feels that way. I also think that big bad Jack O'Neill who laughs in the face of danger, is a COWARD when it comes to life because in order to really live it and move on, he would have to forgive himself for Charlie first. He probably feels forgiving himself is a betrayal of Charlie. And loving Sam would be a different type of responsibility than he has for her and the team's physical lives in the field. In his view, He would be responsible for her HAPPINESS and he thinks for sure, knowing the darkness he surrounds himself with at home alone after he can stop joking and just be...he thinks he would screw up her life. I love that most fanfic writers interpret Jack the way that I see him too. Although most people won't agree with my use of the word "coward".

As to that stupid line "I wouldn't be here" - I don't know what to make of that other than I can picture TPTB sitting around a conference table going "what can we have him say that would be sufficiently vague enough to give shippers and anti shippers their own interpretation. Problem is, they came up with such a stupid line that all it creates is puzzlement. I can turn ANYTHING into hip except that stupidness!

I don't agree with him being a coward but I do believe he doesn't feel worthy; not necessarily because of how awesome and "perfect" Sam is, but because he's already had it all with Sara and Charlie and feels he was the one who destroyed that happiness. I don't think he ever forgave himself for what happened to Charlie, not even throughout the years of the Program (although the thing with Crystal!Charlie in Cold Lazarus might have given him some closure/peace) and I don't think he ever will. We've seen how difficult he is on others when it comes to mistakes and forgiveness (Cromwell) so it's only natural that he's even harder on himself, especially when it comes to how his son died.

His "mistake" with the gun not only caused Charlie's death and his own misery but it also damaged Sara, who he seemed to love deeply. I think that Jack feels if he would allow himself to fully and openly love Sam (as in getting together, not just from afar as we're used to from him) he might still lose her in the end, as well as the happiness and possible kids that come with their relationship. Not only does he think he wouldn't be able to go through such a loss again (especially if something were to happen to a child of theirs) and come through it "okay", but I think he's also afraid of hurting Sam. If not with his issues and baggage then possibly with failing her and their child(ren), the way he did with Sara.

And I think Jack loves Sam too much to see her "turn into" the woman Sara became after losing Charlie. So, in my opinion, he's not a coward because he's afraid of ending up hurt (which he is) but he's afraid of hurting Sam and basically destroying the happy, bubbly person she is and everything that first attracted him to her. Because in my mind he doesn't only feel responsible for Charlie's death and his subsequent failing marriage but also for leaving Sara broken and he would rather die than do the same to Sam.

Of course, in my shippy world, he somewhat overcomes his fears over the years as he sees Sam grow (as a person and an officer) and she finally enlightens him about her true feelings for him. But he would still carry some of that fear and baggage with him, just like Sam has her own insecurities and it would take some kind of sign from her before he would make that first step.

[Ikorni]

I can't agree with you. Those examples came out of season 1 when the writers didn't have a handle on Sam's character and tried to make her into a gungho feminazi. And in S9-10 they had written off Sam's character and did tremendous damage to her IMO. So not at all examples of who Sam really is. And that off-color statement in S6 to Jonas was out of the blue, out of character and I always hated it - a total aberation.

Since these little things had been written into the show, I'd like to think that Sam's character has more hidden facets to it than what we see. I would loosely interpret her gungho ways in the early season as a woman in the military finding her footing, and that the off-colour statement to Jonas simply tells me that there's a bit more of an 'edge' (in this case: coarse when she wants to) than she'd like others to see - and that it slips out sometimes.

[selene0789]

I can't agree with you. Those examples came out of season 1 when the writers didn't have a handle on Sam's character and tried to make her into a gungho feminazi. And in S9-10 they had written off Sam's character and did tremendous damage to her IMO. So not at all examples of who Sam really is. And that off-color statement in S6 to Jonas was out of the blue, out of character and I always hated it - a total aberation.

I disagree here (I know, I know, *again*). Well, I do agree that Season 1 saw the writers finding a good solid form for Sam's character. But as a storyteller, I choose to see that it reflected Sam's process in deciding how she was going to present who she was to her CO and to the people she worked with. I think by the time Jonas came around, she was more secure in her role at the SGC that she let some of her bite show through. It helps that Jonas was so incredibly non-judgmental, he was kind of a safe zone. He wouldn't have made a big deal out of it, whereas Daniel and Jack would have shared *that look* they have and even Teal'c would have raised a brow in amusement. With Jonas it wasn't a deviation from who she was, but simply another dimension of who she was.

I know that Ikorni has hit some of the same points, so I'll keep this short. But generally, as a rule I can't dismiss things as nothing more than an aberration, and therefore an incompetence of the writers. Doing so would limit Sam, leaving her flat and really kind of boring. There's only so much we can see in forty-five minutes an episode, and with a majority of that time devoted to the missions, there's not a whole lot of room to explore all those little hidden aspects of our characters. When they *do* touch on those hidden aspects every now and then, with Sam's need for speed (in "Space Race", which IIRC hadn't been mentioned before that moment, and was only touched on once afterwards in "Chimera") and with the chicken**** moment with Jonas, it doesn't seem right to just write it off to bad writing.

Of course, as fans, it is our prerogative to choose what to accept about our characters and what to ignore. I personally love these moments, because it hints at the spunky daredevil that lurks beneath the genius that is Major Doctor Samantha Carter. Others may not place the same value on those characteristics. Again, as a storyteller, I choose to incorporate the writers' choices into the world the characters exist in.

For example: The choice to bring in Cam for leading SG-1 translates into the poor judgement of the Joint Chiefs, who were concerned that as a woman, Sam might have been too much influenced by Jack's somewhat lackadaisical style of leadership and so SG-1 was headed by someone who might have been a balancing counterpoint. You know, that sort of thing. I think the joke was on the Joint Chiefs, but that's besides the point.

So that's my bottom line. This same theory can be applied to the Sam/Pete dilemma, but we've already had that discussion, so I'll let it be. And now that I look over this post, it's honestly not so short as I meant to keep it, but hopefully I've made some kind of sense...

[fems]

For example: The choice to bring in Cam for leading SG-1 translates into the poor judgement of the Joint Chiefs, who were concerned that as a woman, Sam might have been too much influenced by Jack's somewhat lackadaisical style of leadership and so SG-1 was headed by someone who might have been a balancing counterpoint. You know, that sort of thing. I think the joke was on the Joint Chiefs, but that's besides the point.

I just have to point out that I totally disagree about you calling Jack's style of leadership lackadaisical.

[Sparky She-Demon]

I disagree as well with the statement that Jack's style of leadership is "lackadaisical"!