Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

[Pol]

So, set-ups and resets...

First Wave: Chemistry

Set-up: Children of the Gods
Apex: There But for the Grace of God/Politics
Reset: The Tok'ra

Spoiler:

Discussion: For me, the first wave is all about the chemistry and the suggestion that Sam and Jack might make a good couple. It was introduced in COTG, built up through early episodes and Solitudes, and came to an apex when Daniel discovered in another universe Sam and Jack were together. For me, the obvious reset to this happens in S2 with the introduction of Martouf, who was clearly to meant to be a serious love interest for Sam.

Second Wave: Falling

Set-up: Out of Mind/Into the Fire
Apex: Nemesis
Reset: Small Victories

Discussion: For me, the second wave is all about the long slow slide into them realising they have fallen for each other which comes to a head with the fishing invitation in Nemesis. introduced in the S2/S3 two-parter, and building up through episodes such as POV and A Hundred Days until Nemesis. The obvious reset to this happens almost immediately with Small Victories and the repeat of the fishing invitation which Sam continues to refuse and thus suggest, yes, they like each other but nothing is going to happen.

Third Wave: Love Hurts

Set-up: Divide and Conquer
Apex: Beneath the Surface
Reset: Entity

Discussion: The onset of the third wave happens almost immediately into S4 with D&C, and for me is all about exploring the fact that the two of them do love each other, trying to put their duty first (and hiding more complex fears about relationships) and how they deal with that. Most of the S4 episodes help to sustain the thread but the apex is the angsty Beneath the Surface. The reset is Entity of course, when Jack is forced to kill her and we see the pain that loving each other could cause them and why they love each other, be together and remain in SG1. And so, Jack takes a step back.

Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Waves: Just Friends?

Set-up: Ascension
Apex: Desperate Measures
Reset: Meridian

Set-up: Redemption
Apex: Paradise Lost/Metamorphosis
Reset: Full Circle

Set-up: Fallen/Homecoming
Apex: Evolution
Reset: Grace


Discussion: There's a large swathe of S5 through S6 and into S7 which for me is about them adjusting as friends and each of them seperately struggling with their emotions and to keep it purely friendship but it kind of happens in a trio of waves, with each initial set-up redefining them as 'friends' but the apex showing that they still love each other before the reset throws them back to 'friends.' Grace being the ultimate reset with Sam concluding that she must move on from her feelings from Jack (although I would still say this is ambiguous within the episode itself).

Set-up: Redemption
Apex: Metamorphosis
Reset: Full Circle

Seventh Wave: Lost Love?

Set-up: Chimera
Apex: The Lost City/New Order
Reset: Affinity

Discussion: The seventh wave is the most angsty because it's reset is the hardest. Because Chimera was all about the suggestion of whether Sam was moving on, but The Lost City and New Order show clearly that Sam's feelings haven't really moved on from Jack at all. Yet, Affinity seems to be the death knell as she's engaged to marry Pete so everything must be over for her and Jack...

Eighth Wave: Fishing

Set-up: Gemini
Apex: Threads

Discussion: The eighth wave is short and sweet. For me, it's clearly suggested in Gemini that Sam still loves Jack, that RepliCarter knows and even calls her on it, suggesting that Sam is a coward and isn't going after what she really wants because of her adherence to the rules and fear. Which to my mind gets Sam thinking and, of course, the outcome of that thinking happens in Threads when she realises she's making a mistake with Pete, finally faces Jack and finally goes fishing.

Oh. My. God. And *I'm* the professor!

Rachel! This is brilliant, and right along the lines of what I was thinking of. As usual, you put very succinctly what I was trying to say. I love the addition of an "Apex" category, brilliant idea. Great job, and if GW will unlock the 'fridge, I'll be greening you in a mo.

So...anyone else? Agree/disagree with Rachel's episodes? I'm going to think on it as I further procrastinate any writing by cleaning my house (though the Nemesis Campfire is coming along quite nicely in my head. And yes. It is set on P3X-234. :::sigh::.

Edit: and Sharon...yes, I'd have to agree with you! LOL

Or, as Jack would say,

[hedwig]

Yep. That was one of the things I thought worked so well! Sam is shaped by her experiences, and you can see her mentors in her, Jack and Hammond and Jacob. And she's got that edge. I love it when fic explores and acknowledges that! Because that's something Jack can understand about her that Pete never would.

I would add Daniel and Teal'c to the mentor list, as well as others at the SGC. Sam said something to Daniel when he was dying in "Meridian" about how much he had changed her since they'd known each other. She never said that about anybody else. So I tend to think it was a blending of all those people and many others at the SGC, and not more Jack than anybody else. He had a huge influence on her in military matters, but I don't see him being particularly mentoring when it came to her personality or who she was or became other than that. She wasn't a blank slate when she came to the SGC, anymore than any of the others were. So I'm of the opinion they all influenced and changed each other, and she had just as much influence on Jack, Daniel and Teal'c, who were changed because of knowing her throughout the years.

[Akamaimom]

I would add Daniel and Teal'c to the mentor list, as well as others at the SGC. Sam said something to Daniel when he was dying in "Meridian" about how much he had changed her since they'd known each other. She never said that about anybody else. So I tend to think it was a blending of all those people and many others at the SGC, and not more Jack than anybody else. He had a huge influence on her in military matters, but I don't see him being particularly mentoring when it came to her personality or who she was or became other than that. She wasn't a blank slate when she came to the SGC, anymore than any of the others were. So I'm of the opinion they all influenced and changed each other, and she had just as much influence on Jack, Daniel and Teal'c, who were changed because of knowing her throughout the years.

But that's the beauty of relationships. When you're with people who are right for you, or uplifting, or complement your own personality, then there is no limit to the amount of growth that's possible. People who are not right tend to make you doubt yourself, or do things that otherwise you wouldn't do.

That's why I've always hated the movie Grease, by the way. At the end, the girl (I've only seen it once, so I don't know their names) ducks down to the guy's level instead of raising him up to hers.

It's obvious that Jack and Sam complement each other very nicely.

Oh, and Pol, I might have said, "Teacher's Pet", but "Overachiever" sounded nicer.

[yessika]

I started my rewatch again, and Children of the Gods was yesterday.

About the recut (I watch that since my kids are around when I'm watching. . .):

The infamous "reproductive organs" line has been cut out, and I have to say that the way it's edited now (for me) makes it shippier. They have these long looks at each other, like there's an instantaneous attraction. I like that! I don't get the same feeling in the old version.

Also--Emancipation: They share a few cute looks in this one, too.

I have to say I don't really like the recut and I really don't like what they did to that scene at all



Rachel, what a great post!! I really liked your analysis

[SamJackShipper93]

Wow, Rachel! That was awesome!

I won't quote it because it's long, but I just have one (kindly meant and kinda giggly) word for you, Rachel500. . .

Overachiever.

[hedwig]

That's why I've always hated the movie Grease, by the way. At the end, the girl (I've only seen it once, so I don't know their names) ducks down to the guy's level instead of raising him up to hers.

It's obvious that Jack and Sam complement each other very nicely.

Definitely agree with the complementing part. However, I've noticed that for a very long time, the focus in this thread seems to be how Sam changed and grew because of Jack (and the focus has been much more on Jack and less on Sam), and very rarely how Jack changed and grew because of Sam. It has to be a two way street, or there isn't much substance to it. How come people rarely talk about how Jack changed because of Sam? This is the Sam and Jack thread, after all, not the "Jack Thunk Thread, Part 2".

[Pol]

Oh, I don't know. I know I've talked about, as have many others, how very much Jack changed throughout the show and how (I think) a lot of it had to do with his growing love for Sam. When you have someone outside of yourself for which to live, you are a better person.

Jack also underwent a huge change in just knowing Daniel, but I'll leave that for another thread.

I think that Sam's influence wasn't as overt, and that's what you're seeing discussed. It is easy to see the growth of the officer, the leader, the caring commander in Sam. More subtle is how Jack was changed by Sam.

And, as I said, I feel that Jack, either consciously or not, wanted to keep Sam's respect. I think that is the crux of that riveting scene at the end of The Other Side. Jack is staring at her, gauging her reaction to his decision to close the iris (and splattering the Hitler-esqe character played by Rene Aberjenois). He is the boss, paid to make the hard choices. It's very telling in that scene that he is staring at *her* and not at Hammond, or not just straight ahead. Or even not just walking past her. Like he's trying to tell her that it had to be done and he was the one to do it. But...he also was looking hard, wondering just how far he had fallen in her eyes.

Annnnnd...that's for a future Campfire, I guess?

There's a line in a Scarecrow and Mrs. King episode (yes, I'm dating myself now) in which Lee is demanding from a colleague (a psych. profiler) an explanation for how the bad guys knew to grab Amanda, his partner (and secret love). Lee is insisting that there was "no contact" between them leading up to the grab. They didn't in any way acknowledge each other. But, in the ep, Amanda breaks that no contact just briefly when she sees Lee in danger. She shouts his name, once, and that's it. The psychologist says something along the lines of "Sometimes things are easier to see in a cat's eyes. It's about what is reflected, not what is shown." (very loose paraphrasing, c'mon, it was 20+ years ago!).

But that analogy is perfect for seeing Sam's influence. Look at Jack's character over the years. How open is he? How willing to trust?

That's down to Sam.

[Akamaimom]

Definitely agree with the complementing part. However, I've noticed that for a very long time, the focus in this thread seems to be how Sam changed and grew because of Jack (and the focus has been much more on Jack and less on Sam), and very rarely how Jack changed and grew because of Sam. It has to be a two way street, or there isn't much substance to it. How come people rarely talk about how Jack changed because of Sam? This is the Sam and Jack thread, after all, not the "Jack Thunk Thread, Part 2".

If anything, my opinion is that he changed more because of her.

Or more exactly, because of how he felt with her.

I'm not sure I'm going to get this out clearly, but I'll try. My previous comment was about how different people make you feel about yourself. I wrote it in "Passing Time" (link here) about how I feel that she affected him and his view on himself.

So, it goes both ways. I think that she (and Daniel--let's be fair) both allowed him to change into the stronger leader that he was later in the series. I think that she gentled him a little, made him step back and see things more clearly. I think that her "I need more time!" taught him a little more patience, and creative ways to get around things. And I also think--quite literally--that she saved his life several times. And all this without losing what made him essentially him.

ALL relationships can have effects on the parties within them. My comments came about because we were talking specifically about Jack's leadership skills having rubbed off on her. But I don't think that she was AT ALL the same kind of leader than he was.

Dangit, Pol, you beat me to it and were more clear about it. **sigh**

And about the "I need more time!" Can you imagine that in other **ahem** venues? "Don't you dare, Jack, I need more time!" (This is the fluffy and gutter thread, right? Not just highbrow discussion? Tee hee hee.)

[Pol]

Last Campfire of season 3 is up. Enjoy.

[Rachel500]

I won't quote it because it's long, but I just have one (kindly meant and kinda giggly) word for you, Rachel500. . .

Overachiever.

Oh. My. God. And *I'm* the professor!

Rachel! This is brilliant, and right along the lines of what I was thinking of. As usual, you put very succinctly what I was trying to say. I love the addition of an "Apex" category, brilliant idea. Great job, and if GW will unlock the 'fridge, I'll be greening you in a mo.

So...anyone else? Agree/disagree with Rachel's episodes? I'm going to think on it as I further procrastinate any writing by cleaning my house (though the Nemesis Campfire is coming along quite nicely in my head. And yes. It is set on P3X-234. :::sigh::.

Edit: and Sharon...yes, I'd have to agree with you! LOL

Or, as Jack would say,

It is possible that I may have thought too much about this....

[Akamaimom]

Last Campfire of season 3 is up. Enjoy.

I did! And I told you so, too!

[XFchemist]

vids rec:

[Akamaimom]

**sigh** Lovely vids!

You know, as I was watching those, one way they could have confirmed--either at the end of Moebius or at the end of Threads--would have been for one of them to reach over and take the other one's hand. That's all it would have taken to establish that they had crossed a certain boundary.

For me, that would have done it.

(Okay--it wouldn't have satisfied "everything" I wanted, but it would confirmed something to me. . .)

[hlndncr]

**sigh** Lovely vids!

You know, as I was watching those, one way they could have confirmed--either at the end of Moebius or at the end of Threads--would have been for one of them to reach over and take the other one's hand. That's all it would have taken to establish that they had crossed a certain boundary.

For me, that would have done it.

(Okay--it wouldn't have satisfied "everything" I wanted, but it would confirmed something to me. . .)

I agree. Hand holding is something you have to do deliberately. It's understated, but intimate. Very them.

[Akamaimom]

I agree. Hand holding is something you have to do deliberately. It's understated, but intimate. Very them.

Especially with one of those little thumb sweeps--you know, caressing the side of the other's hand with a sweep of one's thumb. There's all kinds of tingly happening with those.