Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Callista]

Absolutely. Very well said.

Slightly OT, but on the subject of D&C, one of the weird things about that episode, besides the heavyhanded S/J, was Anise. Did anyone else ever notice this? Martouf told Sam once that the host and the symbiote love as one, but here Freya claims that's not true. She has feelings for Jack while her symbiote has feelings for Daniel.
Anyway, yeah, that has nothing to do with S/J, but I agree that there were many many things wrong with the episode. One of the things I've always resented, besides the obvious, is that D&C ruined Upgrades for me. I like Upgrades. It's not a perfect episode, but it has a lot of fun team moments in it. But having that scene retconned into it just spoils it for me. I suppose that's irrational, but it really does annoy me.

I agree. That was an extremely odd thing. I always wonder if they were toying with pursuing the strange love parallelogram of Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise. And if not, why the heck did they put that in there?! (It was kind of funny, though, just for the looks on Jack's and Daniel's faces while they thought about it. )

Now that's a ship I could have gotten behind!!

[Khentkawes]

Absolutely. Very well said.

Slightly OT, but on the subject of D&C, one of the weird things about that episode, besides the heavyhanded S/J, was Anise. Did anyone else ever notice this? Martouf told Sam once that the host and the symbiote love as one, but here Freya claims that's not true. She has feelings for Jack while her symbiote has feelings for Daniel.

Actually, I would argue that it has everything to do with S/J. The writer purposefully put the "romantic interest" with Anise and Freya in there as a kind of foreshadowing to the later "romantic interest." No writer would do something like that by coincidence. And the fact that the Daniel/Anise, and Jack/Freya thing is sort of awkward and sort of taboo makes a decent parallel to the awkwardness of S/J. That part probably wasn't intended. But maybe the parallel of "forbidden love" (*gag*) was intended. I don't know. All I know is that it seems like Hathor was busy drugging people in this episode because there are too many romantic references for it to be a natural occurrence (Sam/Jack, Jack/Freya, Daniel/Anise, Sam/Martouf... that's a lot of pairings to hint at in a single episode... too many to be anything but a joke).

Anyway, yeah, that has nothing to do with S/J, but I agree that there were many many things wrong with the episode. One of the things I've always resented, besides the obvious, is that D&C ruined Upgrades for me. I like Upgrades. It's not a perfect episode, but it has a lot of fun team moments in it. But having that scene retconned into it just spoils it for me. I suppose that's irrational, but it really does annoy me.

Agreed. I just don't love Upgrades as much anymore. Luckily, I did have one unblemished viewing of Upgrades before I saw D&C, which was fortunate considering I watched season 1-7 out of order. I probably would have hated Upgrades if I had seen D&C first.

[Khentkawes]

I always wonder if they were toying with pursuing the strange love parallelogram of Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise.

Parallelogram! Ha! that's brilliant, Callista. I'm so amused by this.

But at least for this episode, shouldn't it be: Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Anise/Daniel?

And how do we count, since two of those people are kind of the same? Is it a love-hexagon or a love-pentagon (if Anise/Freya count as the same side)?

[Callista]

Actually, I would argue that it has everything to do with S/J. The writer purposefully put the "romantic interest" with Anise and Freya in there as a kind of foreshadowing to the later "romantic interest." No writer would do something like that by coincidence. And the fact that the Daniel/Anise, and Jack/Freya thing is sort of awkward and sort of taboo makes a decent parallel to the awkwardness of S/J. That part probably wasn't intended. But maybe the parallel of "forbidden love" (*gag*) was intended. I don't know. All I know is that it seems like Hathor was busy drugging people in this episode because there are too many romantic references for it to be a natural occurrence (Sam/Jack, Jack/Freya, Daniel/Anise, Sam/Martouf... that's a lot of pairings to hint at in a single episode... too many to be anything but a joke).

You're right! I left out two players. So now it's the love hexagon of Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise.
Poor Teal'c. No wonder he went after Shau'nac like that in the episode in between D&C and Upgrades.

I must stop posting now because my eyeballs are about to explode. Perhaps I can tape something to both sides of my monitor.

[Khentkawes]

You're right! I left out two players. So now it's the love hexagon of Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise.
Poor Teal'c. No wonder he went after Shau'nac like that in the episode in between D&C and Upgrades.

I must stop posting now because my eyeballs are about to explode. Perhaps I can tape something to both sides of my monitor.

We keep posting simultaneously (or near simultaneously).

Lol. I just adjusted the size of my browser window so that the sides are cut off and I don't have to see the frightening pinkness-of-doom.

[Frostfox]

In the case of Janet... I think there were definitely other reasons for her death. The (arguably) shipy moment was included in Heroes, but I don't think the ship was the motivation behind the entire episode. For one thing, it's one of the most dramatic and emotionally gut-wrenching episodes, and everyone involved with it said that they were trying to make something that was much more serious than most of what they'd done before. So, I think the ship just slipped in, it wasn't the driving factor. (Side note: as much as I regret that Daniel didn't get a moment of comfort, and that they didn't show him interacting with his team, MS was given some really great material here and did a fantastic job with it... plus there's the Sam/Teal'c scene, which I also thought was well done. So, there is a lot going on here that has nothing to do with S/J).

However, in the case of Martouf... it's pretty hard for me to argue that his death was anything but a sacrifice on the alter of S/J. Part of the reason that I so firmly dislike D&C is that the entire episode serves no purpose other than to force the ship (sort of like Atlantis' Brainstorm... only without the "Save the Planet" stuff... oh, and Brainstorm had more of a plot). And that's why I think that it's really poor writing on a purely narrative level. It doesn't further the plot line at all. I guess, supposedly it finalizes the Tok'ra/Tau'ri treaty, but we really see very little that has to do with the treaty. The only character development is the "feelings" scene (which I would call bad character development, but still, it's development). There's not even much of a plot. Basically people sit around worrying that Jack and Sam might be brainwashed for an entire freaking episode. It's mind-numbingly tedious. And it all builds up to the big "revelation" at the end, where Jack says that he "cares more than he's supposed to." Really? Wow. That was a boring hour-long episode. Oh, and then Martouf dies at the end. No biggie. So yeah, considering that the episode only served to advance the S/J storyline, I would say that Martouf was killed merely because it was convenient and because it would further the S/J ship.

But again, S/J is far from the only problem with D&C. It was also just an example of exceptionally poor and heavy-handed writing. Probably the best part of the episode is the title, which I've always found to be brilliantly ironic because the episode did exactly what the title proclaims. It divided The Team, and it divided the fanbase in ways that we will never be able to get passed. Divide and Conquer, indeed.

I haven't seen D&C (what an appropriate moniker; an unpleasant medical procedure) for years.
I thought the Martouf/Jolinar/Sam story was charming and interesting and most importantly, in a SF show, SFnal. Rather like the Jadzia/Worf/Ezri/Julian/Dax story in DS9. Including the emotions of the symbiote turned it from a pedestrian love story into a SF theme. Helped by some very nice acting from JR and Amanda along the way.
So I can add killing Martouf to my long, long list of why S/J was and always will be a bad idea.

Sadly, I'm sure they are going to

Spoiler:

retire Jack and ship him off into the sunset with Sam in tow

in the last film.

Spoiler:

I'm saying this after reading the plethora of romantic questions in Amanda Tapping's Question & Answer session in Joe Mallozzie's blog. It just goes to show that in some peoples mind, all there is of Sam is SamandJack, there is nothing else of interest about either the character or the actress.
So long Sam, all your brilliance, hard work, saving the planet, heroic and selfless acts, blowing up a sun, all are meaningless and irrelevant compared to your sex life.

Which is a sad end for a character with so much potential.

FF

[Frostfox]

I agree. That was an extremely odd thing. I always wonder if they were toying with pursuing the strange love parallelogram of Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise.

Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Anise/Daniel?

the love hexagon of Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise.

My brane 'splody!

Actually, I would argue that it has everything to do with S/J. The writer purposefully put the "romantic interest" with Anise and Freya in there as a kind of foreshadowing to the later "romantic interest." No writer would do something like that by coincidence. And the fact that the Daniel/Anise, and Jack/Freya thing is sort of awkward and sort of taboo makes a decent parallel to the awkwardness of S/J. That part probably wasn't intended. But maybe the parallel of "forbidden love" (*gag*) was intended. I don't know. All I know is that it seems like Hathor was busy drugging people in this episode because there are too many romantic references for it to be a natural occurrence (Sam/Jack, Jack/Freya, Daniel/Anise, Sam/Martouf... that's a lot of pairings to hint at in a single episode... too many to be anything but a joke).

Agreed. I just don't love Upgrades as much anymore. Luckily, I did have one unblemished viewing of Upgrades before I saw D&C, which was fortunate considering I watched season 1-7 out of order. I probably would have hated Upgrades if I had seen D&C first.

Ah, but 'forbidden love' is right up there with 'written in the stars' and 'twu wuv' at the pinnacle of good writing and good characterisation. We fans are so ungrateful for not realising that.
Funny, they were pretty much bottom of my wish list for a team based, action adventure show.

FF

[Skadi]

You're right! I left out two players. So now it's the love hexagon of Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise.
Poor Teal'c. No wonder he went after Shau'nac like that in the episode in between D&C and Upgrades.

I must stop posting now because my eyeballs are about to explode. Perhaps I can tape something to both sides of my monitor.

What about Lantash Shouldn't it be the love heptagon of Lantash/Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise ?

[fyere]

What about Lantash Shouldn't it be the love heptagon of Lantash/Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise ?

You're forgetting something else! The TRUE LOVE of Jack and Thor!!!1 Thor's passion will not be denied!!!

Gosh, that's a heck of a love.....um.....polygon.

Seriously - the Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise thing bugged me to no end. It was as if they were deliberately trying to drive a wedge between Jack and Daniel...as it seemed they had been for some time. Annoying. And all that female characters come down to, it seems, is to be the romantic hangers-on to the male heroes...

[discodiva]

Posting quickly from the Vancouver Convention in downtown Burnaby....am sure the subject will be touched upon widely at AT's talk on Sunday....will report back comments and questions if I can when it's all over.....


Now you can see the reason why I've not been around on this thread lately.....been rather busy packing and sorting for the trip....am jet-lagged to crap and very excited about seeing Mr Shanks on Sunday.....shippy nonsense tended to slip out of my all-too-busy mind at present....


Deeds xx

[Frostfox]

What about Lantash Shouldn't it be the love heptagon of Lantash/Martouf/Sam/Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise ?

Okay, now my brane really go 'splody!

You're forgetting something else! The TRUE LOVE of Jack and Thor!!!1 Thor's passion will not be denied!!!

Gosh, that's a heck of a love.....um.....polygon.

Seriously - the Jack/Freya/Daniel/Anise thing bugged me to no end. It was as if they were deliberately trying to drive a wedge between Jack and Daniel...as it seemed they had been for some time. Annoying. And all that female characters come down to, it seems, is to be the romantic hangers-on to the male heroes...

Drive a wedge between characters? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

Spoiler:

And it so worked because all those disgusting, perverted slashers went away and they never wrote another word of slash for SG1 ever again! That worked so well, didn't it.

Posting quickly from the Vancouver Convention in downtown Burnaby....am sure the subject will be touched upon widely at AT's talk on Sunday....will report back comments and questions if I can when it's all over.....


Now you can see the reason why I've not been around on this thread lately.....been rather busy packing and sorting for the trip....am jet-lagged to crap and very excited about seeing Mr Shanks on Sunday.....shippy nonsense tended to slip out of my all-too-busy mind at present....


Deeds xx

Deeds! What on earth are you doing on that side of the pond? I thought you weren't going to this year's con, thought you were doing Chicago instead?

FF

[discodiva]

Deeds! What on earth are you doing on that side of the pond? I thought you weren't going to this year's con, thought you were doing Chicago instead?

FF

*giggles*........did a little bit of secret skullduggery there didn't I?.....


I will hug Mr Shanks for you and uphold the tradition of all Bad Women (tm ) everywhere....



Deeds xx

[SamShipper]

There must be at least ONE of all the infinitude of AUs which has the MOTHER OF ALL SHIPS!!!!

Lantash/Martouf/Sam/Jolinar/Jack/Kanan/Freya/Daniel/Anise/Thor

[Frostfox]

There must be at least ONE of all the infinitude of AUs which has the MOTHER OF ALL SHIPS!!!!

Lantash/Martouf/Sam/Jolinar/Jack/Kanan/Freya/Daniel/Anise/Thor

No! Stop it!

And we don't want to give TPTB any more daft ideas for their next big romance.

FF

[LoneStar1836]

You're forgetting something else! The TRUE LOVE of Jack and Thor!!!1 Thor's passion will not be denied!!!

Gosh, that's a heck of a love.....um.....polygon.

There must be at least ONE of all the infinitude of AUs which has the MOTHER OF ALL SHIPS!!!!

Lantash/Martouf/Sam/Jolinar/Jack/Kanan/Freya/Daniel/Anise/Thor

LOL!

BUT ummm....NO!

SMOR (Sam/Thor) is the one true ship that rules them all!!!


Carry on.