Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

There were all sorts of great possibilities on a truly galactic scale. In fact there were ways to make this part of a greater plan on Oma's part that Daniel was deeply involved in or perhaps he even had a part in forming it and this was part of it, even if he doesn't remember it yet, and there really could have been much more to it than pettiness, it could really have involved something on a huge astronomical scale .

God, you've got it exactly right. That was what I was longing it would turn out to be. Something like this would have made it all worthwhile for me.

But it would have involved input by people who actually have a sense of wonder and magnificence, and these particular people have proven time and time again over the last few years that that simply isn't the case.

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

And, afterwards, he was kicked out trying to help save his home.

And that is part of my point. We. Don't. Know. This. We haven't been told. The storyline has so NOT been developed that we don't even know this much.

I find it very difficult to put into words what I mean here, but I still maintain that degrading the entire idea of the ascended as beings, which is what has been done, does two primary things.

1. It makes them, and the storyline associated with them, mundane, predictable, petty and boring, when they could have been sooo much more. When they could have re-added that feeling of epicness and grandness that I personally miss terribly from the first few seasons.

2. It puts anyone associated with them - NOT in a bad light, I'm not saying that at all. But in a less good light than they could have been. Originally Daniel was worthy of something amazing. And then, turns out, he wasn't. (Okay, in a lot of people's estimation, he was worthy of it anyway, but it's not there any more to be worthy of.) His own worth wasn't really an issue in the end, it was just sleight of hand by Oma. Even if he could be said to have made a choice based on limited information, which he undoubtedly did, and therefore that choice not reflecting badly on him, I still maintain that the way they went with the story was the LESS interesting and less challenging way. Which is part of a more fundamental problem, because as writers, they weren't up to tackling the other, more difficult way. Less risk, less reward.

Which means that Daniel *could* have come back in a way and as a person who was waaaaay more interesting than just pressing the reset button and having him be more or less exactly the same person that he was when he left. Yes, they could develop his existing story arc by tackling the whole thing about Abydos, but frankly, how much screen time would that really take before it became turgid over-angst? Once he's found out, what can he do? Go on a crying jag? Haven't we had enough of that out of Carter this year - I don't really want him sobbing in a corner as well. I've seen a lot of people say, I want to see them react to Abydos but..... it wouldn't take much to overkill that reaction. Just reacting to something that happened in the past doesn't drive the story forward. It doesn't acheive anything except for a few moments of angst. What else can it do? 'Oh, they're gone, and it was my fault....' what then? Do we have a whole episode where Daniel goes around beating his breast and lamenting his friend's fates? What does it do to drive the story forward? Wheras Daniel coming back fundamentally changed, and the rest of the team (and us...) having to deal with that and work out what it means.... that might be a much more interesting way of moving forward. I'm certainly not afraid of changing him as long as his essential characteristics remain the same.

But the feeling I get from S7 is that the writers just want to forget - and want US to forget - that anything ever happened. Sweep it under the rug and hope nobody notices. I just find it a terrible pity that the show can't follow through on something it started which could potentially have been the most challenging and thought provoking story arc they'd ever written.

[Dani347]

I agree that setting the reset button was wrong, and that the story could have been done better.

I do want to see him react to Abydos. Yes, things should move the overall story forward, but I don't think that if something doesn't, that automatically makes it a waste of time. I think it's important, because Abydos is a part of who he is. Daniel remembering Sha're didn't move the story forward, but it was one of the few things I felt they got right when dealing with his memory loss.

Of course, how much angst is too much varies from person to person. I probably have a higher threshold for angst than most people, and I can't picture it becoming turgid for me. Sometimes closure is just as important as moving the story forward, and this needs closure, imo. To me, if they made such a pointed issue of a. having Anubis come after Abydos, possibly the one place besides the SGC that Daniel felt like belonged after his parents died (fanwanking, maybe), b. to have Daniel declare that nothing would happen to them c. to have the entire planet destroyed, well it seems like shoddy storytelling to not deal with his reaction. If they weren't going to show his reaction, they shouldn't have destroyed Abydos. It would be like if they did a story where Sara O'Neill died. If they made a point of making that a big deal, I'd feel cheated if they didn't show Jack's reaction. Not that it would make sense to do a story like that (like destroying Abydos doesn't really make sense) but if they did, I'd want some follow through, not treating it like it was a cat walking past, or some minor incident.
And, good writers should be able to incorporate it into a story that does move things forward. But, I have a lot of episodes that I love that, imo, don't necessarily move things forward, but they either show us new things about characters, or sometimes not even that. They just emphasize things about them we know. I love Legacy. Since they never did anything else with Machello's inventions, I don't think it really moved the story forward, but I still like the episode, and think it's a very good Daniel episode.

Also, we've seen Daniel grieve. Sha're, others (I don't know which episodes still need spoilers) and he doesn't beat his breast and sob. His grief is quiet. So, he could grieve like that. And, he could question his involvement in the ascension as well as question the whole process itself, and I think if it's necessary for all elements to move a story forward (which I don't believe, but just to say) his questioning possibly could. I could actually think how, but right now I have to get going. So, maybe later.

[KorbenDirewolf]

To be really honest Jackson always annoyed me until he died. But after he came back in Fallen/Homecoming he seems to have changed for the better. I'm not sure exactly what it is about him.

[darklilac]

Then I hope Sam will ascend and descend, because she annoyed me from day first.

I lost hope for many things in season 8, but I think there's still a possibility for something more about Daniel's time as an ascended being.
They dropped the story, but being this the last season we can hope for some Daniel resolution and what better of the explanation of why he descended and maybe a return of Shi'fu?

I never saw Daniel being descended as a degradation of his character or of the reasons why he ascended in the first place.
Maybe that was the producers intention, but to me it didn't come out that way.
In Full Circle I saw one of his best friends asking him to make a decision, to cross the line and risk his "position" as an ascended to help his friends.
And he did it.
I think Oma realized that Daniel wasn't ready to leave everyone and everything behind, sicne it wasn't the first time he tried to help his friends as we saw in Abyss and Changeling and brought him back because he still loves those people and his friends still love him.

[Madeleine]

Finally getting around to the "What do you like about Daniel?" bit.

There's a lot, so this might be rather jumbled, but here goes:

Mostly he's one of the least arrogant people around. He knows he has an awesome intellect, and yet - apart from when he fancies teasing Jack - he never holds that over anyone. If he doesn't know something he doesn't bluff through it, he admits he has no idea. He doesn't push himself forward, and he's happy again and again to provide the kernel of an idea for Sam or another to turn into a way to save the day. He lives to learn; some people of whom that is true thrive on the *accumulation* of knowledge, but Daniel seems to appreciate the very existence of stuff to know in the universe.

He's a *good* man, and goodness seems to come so naturally to him that he sees it in everyone else too. Even people whose actions would mark them as Irredemable Bad Hats to most others are to Daniel just people who he hasn't yet managed to get through to. That faith and trust is a lovely thing to see, especially when the majority of the 'cool' characters around are natural born cynics.

In an earlier post I said that by s5 Daniel was more cynical; thinking about it some more though I believe if his cynicism was more down to a lack of faith in himself to persuade other people to do the right thing rather than to a lack of faith in humanity.

That ties into another part of why I like him though, he takes responsibility for whatever he sees around him that he feels is important. He doesn't like to be a bystander.

He's a very vivid character, very clearly defined. His attributes are mostly qualities, but are also at times flaws. They make him more human, more interesting, and more versatile in a dramatic sense.

He has a tendency to look at the big picture and see an important chunk of it and then switch off to all other parts of the picture, making his decision on what is Right and Wrong. And sometimes he's seen the bit that matters, as in Scorched Earth, but other times, as in Menace, he doesn't consider that there could be more than one right or wrong, and that some are more right than others. It's great to watch, because whether I agree with him or not he argues so passionately and convincingly that I find myself swayed by him, which adds another layer to the episode. (Kudos, MS).

And even when his argument becomes hectoring or when he is so intent on getting things done his way that he is prepared to hurt his friends in the process (Past Present springs to mind) it can't make me dislike him, because I know that he applies the same moral standards to himself as he does to everyone else. He's died more than once to save friends, complete strangers, even enemies; you can't judge a person for upsetting or even endangering his friends when he himself has always been prepared to sacrifice far more than feelings or safety himself.

There's a verse in the Bible saying "greater love hath no man than this - that he should lay down his life for his brother" and I've always loved that line. And, okay this next bit is a bit silly but does anyone remember Babylon 5 having a character called Sebastian? He said that true sacrifice wasn't to die to save a whole planet or even to save a few people in a shower of glory, it is to die alone, to save just one other life, unnoticed and in the dark. Back then I thought that was so beautiful I cried. And watching Meridian I thought of that and cried again. Daniel had died for Jack when Jack was just a not very friendly acquaintance, for no other reason than that if he hadn't Jack would have been killed. And then in Meridian, even when he died to save a whole city, it was without fanfare, slowly and painfully, without any recognition from the people he saved - quite the opposite in fact, he was resigned to being remembered with ignominy (sp?) by the Kellownans. Okay, I've completely failed to explain how Daniel's deaths tie in with the stuff Sebastian said, but it's all there in my mind so I think I'll just play the "It's how I feel" card and shut up about it now.

Annnyway...His compassion is very touching. His care for the host in Serpent's Song being an example, and his scene with Jack in LC2 being another - unlike Teal'c and Sam he doesn't tell Jack he 'll miss him, or beg Jack not to leave him; he tells Jack he'll find a way to help him.

It doesn't hurt that he has a very dry sense of humour that I really appreciate. It's a sense of humour that plays well off other characters, especially Jack and Sam.

Nor does it hurt that he's very beautiful. Very very beautiful.

And he's brave, of course. Though that seems to be a virtual automatic trait in TV goodies. The only exceptions I can think of are Wesley pre-Angel, and John Hannah in The Mummy. In fact brave and self-sacrificing heroes are everywhere. To be really interesting a Hero needs a lot more depth, and this depth is usually supplied in the form of a Guilty Secret, a Sarcastic and Abrasive Demeanour, a Comedy Idiocy Routine, Being A Loner (the Cool kind of course), a Quest for Redemption/Vengeance/Truth-about-the-death-of-a-loved-one-&-closure-thereof, or All Of The Above.

In Daniel there is that rare and refreshing thing, someone whose key traits are decency, intelligence, fairness, trust, openness and innate goodness. Someone who is unafraid to espouse the finer traits of humanity and who does so without being turned into a prig or a figure of fun. The fact that Daniel isn't real doesn't prevent him from being inspiring to me in a small way - after all, his traits came from writers and an actor who *are* real, and just holding up those sentiments and values, even in a fantasy television programme, is a piece of something good.

The people who created Daniel deserve a lot of respect for what they achieved. They built such a very deep, detailed, well defined, believable character that he quickly became very hard to write badly for. I think there are times when he's been under-used, and even (occasionally) badly used, but seldom if ever has he been badly *written* or badly portrayed.

He's Daniel, how could I not like him?

Ack, I've gone on for ever. That had better do for now.

[Scarym1]

<In Daniel there is that rare and refreshing thing, someone whose key traits are decency, intelligence, fairness, trust, openness and innate goodness. Someone who is unafraid to espouse the finer traits of humanity and who does so without being turned into a prig or a figure of fun. The fact that Daniel isn't real doesn't prevent him from being inspiring to me in a small way - after all, his traits came from writers and an actor who *are* real, and just holding up those sentiments and values, even in a fantasy television programme, is a piece of something good.

The people who created Daniel deserve a lot of respect for what they achieved. They built such a very deep, detailed, well defined, believable character that he quickly became very hard to write badly for. I think there are times when he's been under-used, and even (occasionally) badly used, but seldom if ever has he been badly *written* or badly portrayed.

He's Daniel, how could I not like him?

Ack, I've gone on for ever. That had better do for now.[/QUOTE]


Wow. That was great. I wish I could be as well written. I have tried but I keep deleting what I write. I just can't articulate what it is I see in him. So I am grateful for those that can. I agree with you especially that last part about how he has seldom if ever been badly written or portrayed.

He's Daniel, how could I not like him?

[Madeleine]

I've seen a lot of people say, I want to see them react to Abydos but..... it wouldn't take much to overkill that reaction.

I've said that I want to see some follow-up to the destruction of Abydos, but I really hadn't thought that whole idea through till your post made me.

Okay, so what I *wouldn't* want is an episode dedicated to Daniel or anyone else Coming To Terms with the end of Abydos, in the vein of Daniel CTTing his place in the universe and Teal'c CTTing his juniorlessness in Orpheus. All wrapped up with a bow at the end and no need to mention it again. That wouldn't be nice, you *can't* come to terms with something like that.

But, in the way that it was nice to see Daniel's existence acknowledged when he got a mention in Shadowplay, or when Jonas got pictured in Space Race, a simple *acknowledgement* of the Abydonians and their relevance to Daniel and hence to the show would mean something to me. A mention of Abydos by Sam in a briefing about something else, Daniel reacts, Sam says a subdued "sorry", and then at the end of the scene she asks "You okay?" Just something, even something very little.

Something, to show that TPTB are aware that Daniel cared about the Abydonians, that some of them were literally his family, that many were his friends, that their demise affects him because he is Daniel and because he is a human being. And that they are aware that Abydos mattered to the Stargate Universe, that it wasn't just any old planet-of-the-week that can be destroyed if the budget allows and then forgotten about, that there are people watching who thought Abydos was special.

[MAJKawalsky]

We interrupt this thread for an important (well to me anyways) announcement of a Daniel/Sha'uri video available for download at www.marimba.com/armory.html. Enjoy!

[darklilac]

The people who created Daniel deserve a lot of respect for what they achieved. They built such a very deep, detailed, well defined, believable character that he quickly became very hard to write badly for. I think there are times when he's been under-used, and even (occasionally) badly used, but seldom if ever has he been badly *written* or badly portrayed.

I agree, the people who created him deserve respect, but in my opinion the same respect should go also to the actor that plays him on the tv screen.
Michael addedd all those big and little things to the character that made Daniel great.

[Madeleine]

Is MS not one of Daniel's creators? He breathed life into the character, gave him mannerisms, manner, body language, tone of voice, passion, believability.

[darklilac]

Is MS not one of Daniel's creators? He breathed life into the character, gave him mannerisms, manner, body language, tone of voice, passion, believability.

In a way he is, still he didn't have the idea for the character.

Since this is a discussion about Daniel, what do his fans think of the lack of spoilers about him in season 8?

[epiphany]

Whoa! Madeleine_W, that was a thing of beauty to read and so true.

What she said!

To darklilac's questions about lack of spoilers, I think it is pretty much what I expected. I expect Daniel to be underused and badly used this next season, though I expect his actor will do as good a job possible with whatever he is given. At this point I am just hoping that at least the lack of spoilers may mean that writers will not deconstruct and ruin him in the same manner they have certain other characters on the show. At least if they aren't giving him much to do, they won't be writing him into situations and giving him reactions which drag the character down, that are beneath the character.

[darklilac]

I was really hoping for some Daniel episodes about his ascension, thinking that he will be in the background for all season 8 is not a happy thought.

[Madeleine]

CJ's writing an ep. So far it's been 2/2 for Daniel having a decent part. Not necessarily a large one, but a good one both times, an in-character one both times, an active role both times and a totally pivotal one in the first.

Going by how s7 went - Teal'c and Daniel had three eps between them that were 'theirs' - I'm not going to get my hopes up. That way I might be pleasantly surprised...