Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[JessM]

I wish you did know siblings that are that close. They exist. Deep understanding isn't something that is impossible between blood relations. If there are all different kinds of friendships, it stands to reason that there are different kinds of siblings, distant ones, close ones.

Since I do have that kind of relationship with my brother, it makes what Daniel and Sam have look like a brother and sister relationship. I suppose if you've never seen it, you may not believe it exists.

Believe me, I wish I did too. The only thing that came close was my relationships with some of my cousins, but even we weren't that close (well the main reason being their living in Massachusetts and only getting to see them during the summers). I mean, I don't doubt that there are siblings who are that close - I'm sure they exist, but like you say it's hard to believe it sometimes if you haven't seen it yourself.... kind of like the way I feel about Daniel's interaction with Sam this season and their friendship, hard to believe it exists if you don't see much evidence of it. (sorry that I had to get that in again, but using it just to make my point clear I guess... and Family Ties depressed the heck out of me).

Eh, don't mind me. It's not anything you did, it's just my personal experience with my brother makes me a little sad that the idea of two blood relatives being close, being friends, seems so foreign to anyone, even only theoretically. But, I'm not going to harp on that anymore.

Okay - I'm sorry if I bugged you about that and I can see why it'd make you feel sad. It's just that I've had it with the whole "they ARE brother and sister" mantra that other shippers keep throwing in my face and telling me I have no reason to think otherwise (and it's not all other shippers just some).

I hope it's more than just the last scene. And, I hope their idea of a team scene is something better than the one they had in whatever the last episode of season 8 was (apparently so disturbing, I blocked the name from my mind -no, not really. Just my usual bought of forgetfulness).

I'm trying to keep my expectations very low (although I did that for the latest ep and was still extremely disappointed), but I agree - I want it to be more than just the last scene. lol - no I know what you're talking about. I want to see Daniel have decent interaction with the rest of his team for more than just the last scene. And if they don't pay any kind of tribute to his friendship with his two long-time teammates I'll be sorely disappointed (though still trying to keep my expectations low here).

[GateGipsy]

I've been posting this around, so that as many people will see it as possible. I know that there are folks in this thread who don't go to the Thunk thread, so I'm posting here too

Hope you folks don't mind the off topic posting, but it is Daniel related We've got a venue for watching the final ever episode of Stargate SG1. It is in London, in Covent Garden. There's a link in my sig below. It's being organised by myself and Madeliene, but anyone, from any forum, is welcome. And if like me you've been hit by the Virgin Media curse, it'll be a chance to actually see this episode!

[Dani347]

Okay - I'm sorry if I bugged you about that and I can see why it'd make you feel sad. It's just that I've had it with the whole "they ARE brother and sister" mantra that other shippers keep throwing in my face and telling me I have no reason to think otherwise (and it's not all other shippers just some).

Crap. I thought I might have come out harsh I was hoping I edited out that part before anyone got a chance to respond. Still, no matter how anyone feels about whether Daniel and Sam have a brother/sister relationship, bottom line is, they aren't. I don't ship them, but there's nothing immoral about them together.

I'm trying to keep my expectations very low (although I did that for the latest ep and was still extremely disappointed), but I agree - I want it to be more than just the last scene. lol - no I know what you're talking about. I want to see Daniel have decent interaction with the rest of his team for more than just the last scene. And if they don't pay any kind of tribute to his friendship with his two long-time teammates I'll be sorely disappointed (though still trying to keep my expectations low here).

I've been very pessimistic when it comes to my television viewing. Expect the worst, don't hope for anything, and maybe you can come out on an even keel. (Yep, I'm a cheery person, aren't I?) If Daniel is with the whole team in just the last scene, I'll personally feel pretty insulted, like they tried to con me into thinking they really cared about Daniel's friendships

[JessM]

Crap. I thought I might have come out harsh I was hoping I edited out that part before anyone got a chance to respond. Still, no matter how anyone feels about whether Daniel and Sam have a brother/sister relationship, bottom line is, they aren't. I don't ship them, but there's nothing immoral about them together.

Naw, no harm done. I know what you were trying to say - if anything I'm way too sensitive. That's exactly how I feel about it, and I just find it funny when people act as if they really are blood relations. Eh, to each their own I guess.

I've been very pessimistic when it comes to my television viewing. Expect the worst, don't hope for anything, and maybe you can come out on an even keel. (Yep, I'm a cheery person, aren't I?) If Daniel is with the whole team in just the last scene, I'll personally feel pretty insulted, like they tried to con me into thinking they really cared about Daniel's friendships

Same here - I've been brimming with cynicism myself as far as television is concerned. I'll probably have the same reaction if they end up doing that for the final episode.

[Kales]

Since we've admitted this over in the DV thread, i thought I'd air it here too... Jess, I think I feel a tiny bit of how you feel on Sam/Daniel right now...
FAMILY TIES

Spoiler:

That scene in his office is just... not... Daniel. I've tried, and rewatched, and tried, but it's just not him. Stef said it in the 'ship thread and I agree... it's like watching a school principal having a 'talk' with a wayward pupil. And as acting goes, the dialogue is clunky and it feels like MS knows it.

All in all, whether you 'ship them or not, it's a cheapening of the friendship they've been trying to build and just... not... Daniel.

kay x

[Frostfox]

Naw, no harm done. I know what you were trying to say - if anything I'm way too sensitive. That's exactly how I feel about it, and I just find it funny when people act as if they really are blood relations. Eh, to each their own I guess.

The main reason I don't find them like siblings? The don't row enough, most siblings I know fight like cats and dogs, Sam and Daniel just don't. If anything, Jack and Daniel spat like brothers far more than our wonder twins.

FF

[jdjunkie]

The main reason I don't find them like siblings? The don't row enough, most siblings I know fight like cats and dogs, Sam and Daniel just don't. If anything, Jack and Daniel spat like brothers far more than our wonder twins.

FF

Yes, Jack and Daniel do. And jolly good fun it is too, for the most part.
My take on the Daniel and Sam dynamic is that, certainly in the early years, we were led to believe there WAS a good, strong friendship, based on shared experience and common ground on the science front.
Sadly, I think the Sam and Daniel dynamic, which I enjoyed hugely early on, was one of the many things that was culled to facilitate Sam/Jack. To make us "see" that Sam and Jack had something special (and boy, it just doesn't feel right to type THAT) they had to distance Sam from everyone else. They focused so hard on showing us that she was close to/had special feelings for Jack, that everything else took a back seat.
The Sam and Daniel dynamic went the same way as the Daniel and Jack dynamic (and boy, I could go on for hours about THAT).
When Jack left (along with the ship) any effort to resurrect Sam's friendship with and closeness to anyone else has looked forced. Witness Sam and Vala ...doesn't work for me.
Oh dear. I think this maybe to J/S, too S/D and too J/D for a Daniel thread. Anyway. Just my thoughts, for what they're worth
jd

[Kales]

The main reason I don't find them like siblings? The don't row enough, most siblings I know fight like cats and dogs, Sam and Daniel just don't. If anything, Jack and Daniel spat like brothers far more than our wonder twins.

FF

Hahaha... I totally agree on this. Completely agree on it. I'm very close to my brother, but that doesn't stop us arguing constantly and having stupid names for each other and silly competitions...

There's also, I don't know quite how to explain this to those without close siblings... but there's a layer that's unquestioned. I can sometimes hate and want to throttle my brother, but there's never a question of cutting off ties or anything. I'm not explaining this very well, but there's a basic tie there that just can't be broken even if you want to. With Sam and Daniel it's very much a case of wanting to be friends.

And Jack and Daniel, yes, lol, I get that totally... the complexities of their friendship are much more brother-like. Sam and Daniel, not to belittle it in the slightest, have a more ... simple? ... relationship, IMO.

kay x

[JessM]

Since we've admitted this over in the DV thread, i thought I'd air it here too... Jess, I think I feel a tiny bit of how you feel on Sam/Daniel right now...
FAMILY TIES

Spoiler:

That scene in his office is just... not... Daniel. I've tried, and rewatched, and tried, but it's just not him. Stef said it in the 'ship thread and I agree... it's like watching a school principal having a 'talk' with a wayward pupil. And as acting goes, the dialogue is clunky and it feels like MS knows it.

All in all, whether you 'ship them or not, it's a cheapening of the friendship they've been trying to build and just... not... Daniel.

kay x

Even though I don't ship them I have to agree with you a bit...

(Family Ties)

Spoiler:

As I was watching that scene I was wondering what D/V shippers thought, because the dialogue did seem pretty clunky and it didn't seem to have a personal, sort of "as friends" touch. He didn't seem too "Daniel" there to me either...

That is definitely what one of my issues with the Sam/Daniel stuff was... the element of friendship doesn't appear to be there. Nothing is really said on a personal level - that level of comfort just seems absent and it's like they are interacting as coworkers who just have to interact because of the situation they're in. What I think bothers me more is that any of the caring/friendship seems to be coming more from Sam than from Daniel. With the exception of Morpheus I've hardly seen him reciprocate and it makes me think he doesn't really want to be bothered with her (hopefully I'm wrong though). I've said quite a bit that things seem a lot more plot-driven than character-driven this season (and possibly last season too...I think that's when it may have started).

I posted on JM's blog again regarding this, and this time I mentioned Amanda's quote from her interview. I don't think I'll get an answer and it makes me wonder how these guys feel about portraying the friendships. I suppose it's not really my place to wonder, though...

That said, I am so thankful that we have fanfiction and old episodes. I don't have much hope for the final two episodes, but I am hoping that there is some decent interaction in the DVD films.

[JessM]

The main reason I don't find them like siblings? The don't row enough, most siblings I know fight like cats and dogs, Sam and Daniel just don't. If anything, Jack and Daniel spat like brothers far more than our wonder twins.

FF

That is definitely one of the main reasons why I don't find them like siblings either. I know they did argue a few times, but it was pretty rare, from what I remember anyway.

Yes, Jack and Daniel do. And jolly good fun it is too, for the most part.
My take on the Daniel and Sam dynamic is that, certainly in the early years, we were led to believe there WAS a good, strong friendship, based on shared experience and common ground on the science front.
Sadly, I think the Sam and Daniel dynamic, which I enjoyed hugely early on, was one of the many things that was culled to facilitate Sam/Jack. To make us "see" that Sam and Jack had something special (and boy, it just doesn't feel right to type THAT) they had to distance Sam from everyone else. They focused so hard on showing us that she was close to/had special feelings for Jack, that everything else took a back seat.
The Sam and Daniel dynamic went the same way as the Daniel and Jack dynamic (and boy, I could go on for hours about THAT).
When Jack left (along with the ship) any effort to resurrect Sam's friendship with and closeness to anyone else has looked forced. Witness Sam and Vala ...doesn't work for me.
Oh dear. I think this maybe to J/S, too S/D and too J/D for a Daniel thread. Anyway. Just my thoughts, for what they're worth
jd

No problem. I see where you're coming from, definitely. There were some things that bothered me as a result of that, like almost no worry over Daniel at the end of Evolution Part 1, Reckoning Part 2... But for the most part we still got to see Daniel and Sam interacting closely as friends in seasons 7 and 8 (Space Race, Chimera, Avatar, Covenant, Endgame). It might not have been anything *that* special, but little things that served as reminders that they were still close friends.

Those kinds of things were totally absent in seasons 9 (with a few little exceptions) and 10, and while I know some things end up being sacrificed whenever you add new characters, I don't think they should've been sacrificed completely. I do agree that the Sam/Vala interaction seemed a bit... unnatural to me... a bit forced. It almost creates the impression that there is some tension between the characters for whatever reason - at least on Sam's end. But I guess that is for another thread, lol

[JessM]

Hahaha... I totally agree on this. Completely agree on it. I'm very close to my brother, but that doesn't stop us arguing constantly and having stupid names for each other and silly competitions...

There's also, I don't know quite how to explain this to those without close siblings... but there's a layer that's unquestioned. I can sometimes hate and want to throttle my brother, but there's never a question of cutting off ties or anything. I'm not explaining this very well, but there's a basic tie there that just can't be broken even if you want to. With Sam and Daniel it's very much a case of wanting to be friends.

And Jack and Daniel, yes, lol, I get that totally... the complexities of their friendship are much more brother-like. Sam and Daniel, not to belittle it in the slightest, have a more ... simple? ... relationship, IMO.

kay x

I know what you're saying. It's the sort of "You can choose your friends, but you can't choose your relatives" thing. And I also agree, Jack and Daniel have a pretty complex friendship. LOL, no worries, I know what you are saying about Sam and Daniel. It doesn't seem as if there's a lot of facets to their relationship - just sort of a instant 'click' type thing that can be easily defined... if what I'm saying makes any sense, lol

[Kales]

I know what you're saying. It's the sort of "You can choose your friends, but you can't choose your relatives" thing. And I also agree, Jack and Daniel have a pretty complex friendship. LOL, no worries, I know what you are saying about Sam and Daniel. It doesn't seem as if there's a lot of facets to their relationship - just sort of a instant 'click' type thing that can be easily defined... if what I'm saying makes any sense, lol

Exactly! They have a similar mindset in their inquisitiveness most of the time and they often just click or know each other - it doesn't take work for them a lot of the time.

Aarg, this is what bugged me sooooo much about some bits of season 4 and 5 and Family Ties and Bounty

Spoiler:

Some friendships take work and effort, like Jack and Daniel and Daniel and Vala. So they put in all the work and show it developing, only to have idiotic regression that's utterly OOC.

Daniel's scene with Vala in his office was totally OOC for them both, and Bounty was way off with Vala, playing her like a hopeless bimbo and idiot about earth culture. And Daniel just isn't that condescending towards her. It's incredibly annoying when the writers miss the beat. I mean, "Have a seat please?"

I will stop ranting about this now

kay x

[JessM]

Exactly! They have a similar mindset in their inquisitiveness most of the time and they often just click or know each other - it doesn't take work for them a lot of the time.

Very true I guess that's one of the things that drew me to it, lol

Aarg, this is what bugged me sooooo much about some bits of season 4 and 5 and Family Ties and Bounty

Spoiler:

Some friendships take work and effort, like Jack and Daniel and Daniel and Vala. So they put in all the work and show it developing, only to have idiotic regression that's utterly OOC.

Daniel's scene with Vala in his office was totally OOC for them both, and Bounty was way off with Vala, playing her like a hopeless bimbo and idiot about earth culture. And Daniel just isn't that condescending towards her. It's incredibly annoying when the writers miss the beat. I mean, "Have a seat please?"

I will stop ranting about this now

kay x

I know what you mean! As for seasons 4 and 5, you mean with Daniel and Jack and things like The Other Side or Menace?

Spoiler:

I did find that scene in Family Ties to be a bit OOC - something just didn't seem right and I think you've described it perfectly.

It seems to me that (and I don't know if this has anything to do with it being different writers have different strengths or weaknesses) TPTB will hit on a good note, sort of be on a roll, and then try to mess something up for some reason, intentional or not. Seems like a combination of bad writing/direction to me in this case. I know things were sometimes that way in the early seasons, but it was early on and they had an excuse. Almost makes me wonder if they're getting burnt out now.

I don't think I'm explaining this well, but I know what you mean about the regression thing. I think I started seeing some of it between Daniel and Sam during the end of season 5. Fail Safe I think, there was a scene where Jack and Teal'c were outside on the asteroid, and Daniel and Sam were trying to figure something out in the ship. Daniel just seemed cranky to me and later on when Jack asked what she was saying, he said "I dunno, some astrophysics thing." Their friendship seemed a bit "off" to me in Menace as well, as well as in The Sentinel. I guess it might've had something to do with tension in the air right before MS' final episode. I'm not sure... but it was a bit disheartening and I was glad that things seemed to "heal" between them after Daniel came back in season 7.

[Kales]

I know what you mean! As for seasons 4 and 5, you mean with Daniel and Jack and things like The Other Side or Menace?

Spoiler:

I did find that scene in Family Ties to be a bit OOC - something just didn't seem right and I think you've described it perfectly.

It seems to me that (and I don't know if this has anything to do with it being different writers have different strengths or weaknesses) ...

I don't think I'm explaining this well, but I know what you mean about the regression thing.

Yeah, pretty much. Like when Jack tells him to 'shut up' in the Other Side. I think it might have a lot to do with writers, yeah, because that scene

Spoiler:

It had the right ingredients on paper, just not the right mix, if that makes sense. You know, Daniel-is-caring-towards-Vala-and-acknowledges-her-past, they talk seriously etc. etc. ... in the same way as in that scene in Fail Safe, Daniel and Sam figure something out by bouncing off one another, so on paper it's right, it just... isn't.

It's little things like "have a seat please" - it's far too directing for Daniel. Nevermind that Vala's his friend, he wouldn't say that to anyone, really. Especially in a non-military situation and friendly chat.

Even people he's not particularly equal with, he still treats them that way for the most part. And he just seemed way too superior. It's moments like that that annoy me, where the writing just doesn't get the tone if that makes sense.

And was I imagining it, or was MS distinctly... uncomfortable looking throughout?

kay x

[Pitry]

Since we've admitted this over in the DV thread, i thought I'd air it here too... Jess, I think I feel a tiny bit of how you feel on Sam/Daniel right now...
FAMILY TIES

Spoiler:

That scene in his office is just... not... Daniel. I've tried, and rewatched, and tried, but it's just not him. Stef said it in the 'ship thread and I agree... it's like watching a school principal having a 'talk' with a wayward pupil. And as acting goes, the dialogue is clunky and it feels like MS knows it.

All in all, whether you 'ship them or not, it's a cheapening of the friendship they've been trying to build and just... not... Daniel.

kay x

Spoiler:

I don't know whether off or not off, but it felt to me like they were trying to replicate a scene that did work - Daniel adn Vala talking about trust in Shroud - and missed hwat made that scene great in the first place in the process.