Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[Kales]

Oh yeah, the Ma'chello scene. I'd forgotten, thanks.

kay x

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

Thanks

I agree, it would be great to see MS have a lead role in something.

I don't remember him saying it explicitly either, but that does sound like the answer to me. The only thing I can think of is when he was dying in Ma'chello's body and he spoke to Ma'chello in his own body. Even though he was in such grave condition, he was still focused on getting her back. Ma'chello said to him, "Even if you had this body, you will never find her" and he replied with a firm "I WILL FIND HER, I WILL FIND HER."

That's a pretty good point. I remember Daniel saying that Sha're was a fighter to Kendra in Thor's Hammer, that she possesses this strength. The Sha're from the movie showed that she cared for Daniel and was pretty inquisitive regarding the story about Ra and wanting to rise up against him. She tried to protect Daniel at one point too (I just watched the DVD yesterday LOL and I agree with you about brush-top man... one of my friends once said his hair resembled the toilet brush in their bathroom ).

(((Whispers - Kurt Russell!)))

But anyway I agree, there didn't seem to be much to show how she was Daniel's equal.

Gotta disagree a bit probably just because I'm such a big Daniel/Sha're fan and maybe see stuff others don't (isn't that true of all shippers?). I think the movie portrayed her greatest strength and the thing that drew Daniel to her the most - she was smart. Okay, so she wasn't 'book learned' but within her society she was easily Daniel's equal. He taught her how to read in a day or two! Not only that, she was a bit of a rebel. She dared to write when everyone else thought they would be struck dead if they did. In our society, she'd look like a wall flower, but within her own she was very strong and very brave. Daniel, being all too aware of that kind of culture, recognized her strength and bravery and it drew him to her. He was a rebel too in his own way, refusing to listen to the dictates of acadamia. Two independant spirits! I gotta love it!

Sha're was also quite proud, 'though not in terms that most in today's society would recognize. She didn't tell her friends/family that Daniel 'didn't want her', but was prepared to do so when he confronted her about their being married. He may not have been looking to marry her, but he recognized the significance of what he'd been offered the night before and decided it was worth having. GRIN! Some of it may have been his inate kindness as well as a little lust for a pretty girl that intrigued the hell out of him - after all, many ancient societies frowned quite hard on sex outside of marriage. She and Daniel could have protested up a storm that nothing happened and she still could have been stoned to death if he refused her - maybe. (This wasn't true of all ancient societies! Ancient Hebrews, Arabics... but I'm not sure about Egyptians)

Except, really, the fact that Daniel felt she was, which may be the most important thing I guess. And how refreshing she was - she didn't see him as brilliant or intimidating (Children of the Gods, his convo with Jack at his house).

That was the one let down in Secrets, I thought. They portrayed Daniel brilliantly, but I thought Sha're would have a little more faith in him than to think he'd stopped loving her. I guess it's a thing in a patriarchal society where the men rule and the women are ruled.

Very true. Women were chattel in many such societies. I'm not so sure if that was true for ancient Egypt though... (Ah, I feel the research bug biting!) But their places in society were definitely black and white - and so were men's. Daniel had to make some major changes to his way of thinking too when he decided to stay on Abydos.

Okay, I'll shut up now!

[poundpuppy29]

So you are a fan of Daniel & Sha're I have a ? for you do you think it is ok if Daniel loves again I am a Daniel &Vala Shipper but Jess is Daniel & Sam Shipper we respect eachother's AU (meaning we can have what we want in our own AU) but is it ok for you for that he is with anyone? How did you see eps that he strayed Need and the others that we have mentioned? I am just curious.

[Callista]

So you are a fan of Daniel & Sha're I have a ? for you do you think it is ok if Daniel loves again I am a Daniel &Vala Shipper but Jess is Daniel & Sam Shipper we respect eachother's AU (meaning we can have what we want in our own AU) but is it ok for you for that he is with anyone? How did you see eps that he strayed Need and the others that we have mentioned? I am just curious.

I know you're asking Major Cliffhanger, but as a married woman, do you mind if I add my 2 cents?

As far as current Stargate goes (season 10), I'd say it's absolutely OK if Daniel loves again. I really didn't have a problem with him and Kira. He'd been without Sha're for a long time before that. I don't think he really followed "all the way" through with her. He even mentions that he's recently lost his wife. The poor guy has been extremely lonely for 3 years. He's heartbroken and then there's this woman who doesn't know his past and is genuinely interested in him (mind and body), I don't find it at all odd or unseemly that he would want to spend time with her or that he would feel for her. Grief is a huge roller-coaster ride. You can go from happy to sad to giddy to melancholy within a couple of hours. I could certainly see where he would just want someone to cling to and have fun with. It would be entirely different than hanging out with his friends who know his past and would probably be treating him with kid gloves. And now, 7 years later, I would hope he'd be able to find some happiness. If I were to die, I would hope my husband wouldn't have to spend the rest of his life alone. If he found someone who would make him happy, then I'd want that for him.

As far as Need and Hathor (and even Broca Divide...if something indeed happened there) go, I don't think he can be blamed. Shyla and Hathor purposely drugged him up and messed with his mind. Hathor out and out raped him. I don't know if he and Shyla ever actually did the deed, but the sarcophagus certainly had him whacked out of his mind. He behaved completely differently than he normally would in every way. I don't think he could be blamed and I'm sure Sha're wouldn't have blamed him....anymore than he blamed her for having Apophis' child. (I'm sure he blamed himself, though, being the king of guilt that he seems to be.) Same goes for Broca Divide. Look how everyone else behaved. Is Daniel somehow immune to primal urges when absolutely everyone else falls victim to them? I don't think so.

[MaeveBran]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I ship Daniel with anything female, as long as niether are currently in a relationship.

As a married woman, I agree with Callista. If I were to die I'd want my husband to find someone to be happy with.

My view on Daniel has him with Sha're and no one else until Forever in A Day, (with the exceptions of when he is out of his mind.) I see Hathor and Shyla and maybe Melosha as being more of a guilt problem for him than problems from Sha're. He would carry the guilt because he violated his personal code even though he didn't purposely do it.

My problem with Kira, was how soon he was kissing her after losing Sha're but I've come to see that that was a plea for physical comfort. After all the man hadn't really been touched as anything but a friend or brother for over two years unless being used by women with their own plans. He had to be craving some sign of still being desirable. Both Daniel and Sha're would have had issues to deal with each being essentially raped in their time apart if they had managed to save her. The guilt would have been there for both of them but I don't think they would have blamed each other for what the snakes made them do.

As far as now, you can see by my sig that I ship Daniel and Vala. My problem with this ship doesn't come from Daniel's state as a widdower but from the fact the Vala is still married. I have no problem shipping them in season nine but in season ten, untill Tomin is delt with the better be just really good friends, along the lines of what Sam tells Daniel when he comes back in Fallen. I just don't see Daniel making a cuckold of any man, having been one himself.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

So you are a fan of Daniel & Sha're I have a ? for you do you think it is ok if Daniel loves again I am a Daniel &Vala Shipper but Jess is Daniel & Sam Shipper we respect eachother's AU (meaning we can have what we want in our own AU) but is it ok for you for that he is with anyone? How did you see eps that he strayed Need and the others that we have mentioned? I am just curious.

Daniel and Sha're are my favorite but I am an equal oportunity shipper. D/Janet, D/Sam, D/Vala... all have their appeal. (Not much of a slasher - sorry! - though I have read some good fic that happened to have that pairing) As to 'is it ok for Daniel to love again'? Absolutely! I would certainly hope so. As for 'straying'? I'm not sure I would lable it that way. As a woman who has been married over 23 years I have a pretty solid definition of the word and it includes 'conscious choice'. Men will be men, and they will be tempted - that's the way god wired them! Love is a lot more than an emotion - it's a conscious decision and act; it's commitment and just plain good old hard work. It doesn't mean you always feel good around someone or pine after them when they aren't there or, heck!, even like them all the time! Um... what was I talking about, oh yeah! Straying - nope, don't see it.

Broca Divide - he was ill/regressed to a primative mind set. The male of the species (whatever species!) is programed to mate with any and every available female, to spread his genes. Females are programed to find a strong male to protect and provide for the long term investment of offspring. Modern society and intelligence dictates differently, but that doesn't apply here. We saw the same behavior in Sam with regard to Jack. I think they explained it fairly well in the episode.

Hathor - He was drugged/raped. At one point he actually tried to resist but she upped the pheromones and he was lost.

Need - Hmmm... if I have any problem with any of the epis, it's this one. He consciously played her. I don't think he was bedding her at the time, but he didn't tell her he was married after she told him he was her destiny. He used her attraction in an effort to free his friends. She used the fact that he was using her to get him in the sarcophagus - repeatedly. At that point, he loses his perspective and is basically addicted to a drug which happens to be 'selfishness'. He is not in his right mind.

Past and Present - this was just really, really bad timing on the part of the writers!!! Argh! Okay, though... taking it as cannon, I agree with the earier poster who said grief has it's own timetable. There is no rhymn or reason to exactly how a person reacts. Did they or didn't they is also a reasonable question. In my personal missing-scene view of the episode, there may have been some heavy petting go on, but I don't think Daniel was ready to have a one-night-stand, especially with someone who was so vulerable. They were both vulnerable at that point and I'd like to think Daniel was smart enough to realize it and put a stop to things before they went too far. (I certainly don't think she would have!) However, that's just my point of view. To each their own.

As for Sam shipping durring this time period - I have no problem so long as it doesn't include sex. Again, this has to do with my definition of love. A person can quite easily love more than one person at a time, you simply commit yourself to one person in the act of marriage and you honor that commitment above all others. I do think Daniel loves Jack; I just don't happen to think it's sexual. Does that mean it isn't just as powerful as romantic love? Not at all! That kind of bond can be even more powerful. And also I think he grows to love Sam; he just choses to direct it into a sibling love - and again, that can be just as powerful and more so than romantic love.

English is very weak in this regard. Other languages have different words for different kinds of love - we group it all together and it becomes a hodgepodge of meaning.

'Kay, this is getting a little long, so I think I've rambled enough. 'Hope I answered the question! LOL!

[JessM]

Except, really, the fact that Daniel felt she was, which may be the most important thing I guess. And how refreshing she was - she didn't see him as brilliant or intimidating (Children of the Gods, his convo with Jack at his house).

That was the one let down in Secrets, I thought. They portrayed Daniel brilliantly, but I thought Sha're would have a little more faith in him than to think he'd stopped loving her. I guess it's a thing in a patriarchal society where the men rule and the women are ruled.

kay x

That's true... we did hear from Daniel about all those things, but we didn't get to see much for ourselves except when they first took her in COTG and she yelled to Apophis that she wasn't afraid of him.

I would've thought so too... She knew that she had a Goa'uld inside her and that Daniel would be acting that way towards her based on that. I wondered if it (her behavior and thinking that he stopped loving her) had anything to do with her father being present at the time and something to do with what you said about the patriarchal society. Maybe she thinks that she has failed Daniel in some way, that he'd seen her as strong and she has this goa'uld possessing her....

.... or something along those lines anyway.

Oh yeah, the Ma'chello scene. I'd forgotten, thanks.

No problem

[JessM]

(((Whispers - Kurt Russell!)))

*whispers back... I knew that! Was just playing along as I like the "brush top man" moniker, LOL! *

Gotta disagree a bit probably just because I'm such a big Daniel/Sha're fan and maybe see stuff others don't (isn't that true of all shippers?). I think the movie portrayed her greatest strength and the thing that drew Daniel to her the most - she was smart. Okay, so she wasn't 'book learned' but within her society she was easily Daniel's equal. He taught her how to read in a day or two! Not only that, she was a bit of a rebel. She dared to write when everyone else thought they would be struck dead if they did. In our society, she'd look like a wall flower, but within her own she was very strong and very brave. Daniel, being all too aware of that kind of culture, recognized her strength and bravery and it drew him to her. He was a rebel too in his own way, refusing to listen to the dictates of acadamia. Two independant spirits! I gotta love it!

Addressing a few posts at once here... I think anyway...

I agree about how the movie portrayed Sha're as strong and smart. I quite liked that and I liked Daniel/Sha're in the movie as well as early in the series.

As far as my Sam/Daniel shipperdom goes, I don't really like to portray them in a romantic relationship before Sha're's death, unless it's in an AU where Sha're is not an issue at all. I don't see Daniel being unfaithful like that. In one story I wrote a while back (and am writing a sequel for now) I have tried to make excuses for him being with Sam (although not really romantically) beforehand, like Sha're wanting him to be happy and go on with his life until he can be with her again. But even then I really try not to cross the line that would have Daniel cheating on Sha're. I have him stress that he loves Sam, yes, but as a friend.

As for the "sibling love" thing, I don't understand how it can be just as or more powerful than romantic love. I guess I have no reason to question it because I don't have any siblings myself, so haven't really ever experienced it. But the friends I have who do have siblings, I've never seen them interact as Sam and Daniel do... none of the finishing each other's sentences, comfort and concern when the other is hurting, no flirting (and I know it's subject to opinion whether or not Sam and Daniel actually flirt - but I personally saw it here and there, like in Message in a Bottle, Space Race....). The ones I know really don't get along very well and just begrudgingly admit that they're related. I guess I have no reason to get so defensive over it. It's just what people tell me why I shouldn't ship them, that it's like incest which is repulsive.

Anyway I'll shut up now, I think my ignorance on this topic is showing Sorry, I'll just keep this in the D/S Ship thread.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

SNIP!

As for the "sibling love" thing, I don't understand how it can be just as or more powerful than romantic love. I guess I have no reason to question it because I don't have any siblings myself, so haven't really ever experienced it. But the friends I have who do have siblings, I've never seen them interact as Sam and Daniel do... none of the finishing each other's sentences, comfort and concern when the other is hurting, no flirting (and I know it's subject to opinion whether or not Sam and Daniel actually flirt - but I personally saw it here and there, like in Message in a Bottle, Space Race....). The ones I know really don't get along very well and just begrudgingly admit that they're related. I guess I have no reason to get so defensive over it. It's just what people tell me why I shouldn't ship them, that it's like incest which is repulsive.

Anyway I'll shut up now, I think my ignorance on this topic is showing Sorry, I'll just keep this in the D/S Ship thread.

See, I think this is a problem with modern society. We want to compartmentalize everything. 'Sibling love' is brother and sister bickering all the time, can't stand each other except at Xmas and certainly can never be allowed to morph into something else! shudder!

Pul-leeze!

Love is not that black and white. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating incest! AWK! I just squicked myself! - but, love is a CHOICE. Do I love my brother? Absolutely. Do I sometimes want to punch him in the nose? Absolutely! - but nobody else better do it! Do I have romantic feelings for him - oh, don't gross me out!!! HOWEVER!!! I did have a foster brother for a short period of time. And according to the dictates of society and family dynamics, I treated him like a brother. 'Doesn't mean I didn't think he was cute or I wouldn't have dated him had the situation been different - I simply refused to explore or even acknowledge the possibility.

None of that applies to Daniel and Sam - except that it's a CHOICE they both made.

When I say they express 'sibling love' in their early relationship, I am in no way saying that romantic feelings don't exist or that their relationship cannot evolve and change as circumstances evolve and change. I simply mean that their friendship transends the 'lets get together and kabitz once a month' kind of friendship that most people have. They basically live in each other's pocket when they are off-world - so yes, they would have to develop a brother/sister relationship. It's just a way of defining the lines as to what is and isn't permissable. And once Sha're dies....

'Hope this helps explain anything I said confusing before, Jess!

[JessM]

That does explain make more sense, thanks. I meant it though when I said I didn't really see any siblings acting that way - it's just what I've happened to observe over the years, not that I want to compartmentalize anything - although I definitely understand what you mean as put in general.

I guess I just got defensive because I've had so many people on my case about shipping them - how wrong it is and they always use the "siblings" and "incest" thing. I can't apologize for the way I feel, atlhough lately I feel myself increasingly wanting to do that...

Again, apologies from the only child who is ignorant about sibling relationships.

[Maj_Cliffhanger]

I guess I just got defensive because I've had so many people on my case about shipping them - how wrong it is and they always use the "siblings" and "incest" thing. I can't apologize for the way I feel, atlhough lately I feel myself increasingly wanting to do that...

Again, apologies from the only child who is ignorant about sibling relationships.

Attacking other ships is just a defense mechanism some people have to make their own ships superior. Sam and Daniel are not related; they are not bound by society dictates of 'sibling love' - defining their relationship that way simply respects Daniel's commitment to Sha're. And, yes, that relationship may have continued and nothing romantic developed between them - but that doesn't mean it had to. It's all in the eye of the beholder - and your ship is just as legitamate as any other!

No apologies necessary!

[Callista]

Jess, you're right in that there are lots of brothers and sisters who don't get along at all. I have an adult neighbor who doesn't even know where her brother lives anymore. And she doesn't want to.

My brother and I are extremely close. We were always best friends as kids and, although we live several hundred miles apart from eachother now, I think he's the person that is most like me in the world. We always played together, we always watched the same TV shows. My friends invited him along and his friends invited me. We totally finish eachother's thoughts and sentences. No one will let us be on the same team when we play games like "Pictionary" because one of us can draw a couple of squiggly lines and the other one will yell out "The 7 hills of Rome" and it's right and everyone thinks we're cheating. While I can't imagine having "romantic" love for him, I think he's quite cute. And, more than one person has told me that his fiancee looks an awful lot like me. I guess we're just extremely comfortable with eachother. (And one time he DID punch me in the nose! Since then I don't believe shows where people get beat up and there's hardly any blood. But that's a whole other discussion )

Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong to ship Sam and Daniel. They seem to have a relationship very similar to mine and my brother's, with the huge exception that they aren't actually related. I think that would make for a great "romantic" relationship.

I, personally, don't ship anyone on this show. I guess that's just not what I'm watching it for. I like to think that they all have other people they know outside of work. I picture Danny mowing the lawn for his older neighbors and sitting around listening to their stories and getting set up with their grand-daughters. I picture Sam playing pool with her girlfriends. I picture Teal'c going to the movies and maybe hanging out in the arcade (do they still have those?) challenging teen-age boys to various video games....and having quite a following of said boys who idolize him.

[Madeleine]

To me, "sibling relationship" suggests a number of possibilities:

• blood relationship

• shared childhood

• closeness

• lack of reserve

• fondness

• petty squabbles, easilly forgotten

The first two things on the list are what makes incest so yucky. The other things on the list are characteristics not just of siblings but of of any half-decent romantic relationship. Which is why I cope fine with people describing the Sam/Daniel relationship (the canon, platonic one) as "sibling" or "brother and sister", but cannot fathom how people get from there to asserting that S/D would be ikky like incest. They're not blood relatives, and they didn't grow up together! It just bemuses me. JMO.

[JessM]

Attacking other ships is just a defense mechanism some people have to make their own ships superior. Sam and Daniel are not related; they are not bound by society dictates of 'sibling love' - defining their relationship that way simply respects Daniel's commitment to Sha're. And, yes, that relationship may have continued and nothing romantic developed between them - but that doesn't mean it had to. It's all in the eye of the beholder - and your ship is just as legitamate as any other!

No apologies necessary!

Thank you hon - yeah I suppose that makes perfect sense. I just haven't been in a good mood this morning, so sounding a bit nuts there

[JessM]

Jess, you're right in that there are lots of brothers and sisters who don't get along at all. I have an adult neighbor who doesn't even know where her brother lives anymore. And she doesn't want to.

My brother and I are extremely close. We were always best friends as kids and, although we live several hundred miles apart from eachother now, I think he's the person that is most like me in the world. We always played together, we always watched the same TV shows. My friends invited him along and his friends invited me. We totally finish eachother's thoughts and sentences. No one will let us be on the same team when we play games like "Pictionary" because one of us can draw a couple of squiggly lines and the other one will yell out "The 7 hills of Rome" and it's right and everyone thinks we're cheating. While I can't imagine having "romantic" love for him, I think he's quite cute. And, more than one person has told me that his fiancee looks an awful lot like me. I guess we're just extremely comfortable with eachother. (And one time he DID punch me in the nose! Since then I don't believe shows where people get beat up and there's hardly any blood. But that's a whole other discussion )

Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong to ship Sam and Daniel. They seem to have a relationship very similar to mine and my brother's, with the huge exception that they aren't actually related. I think that would make for a great "romantic" relationship.

I, personally, don't ship anyone on this show. I guess that's just not what I'm watching it for. I like to think that they all have other people they know outside of work. I picture Danny mowing the lawn for his older neighbors and sitting around listening to their stories and getting set up with their grand-daughters. I picture Sam playing pool with her girlfriends. I picture Teal'c going to the movies and maybe hanging out in the arcade (do they still have those?) challenging teen-age boys to various video games....and having quite a following of said boys who idolize him.

Thanks Callista - it's nice to know that there are siblings who get along so well.

To be honest, I really don't ship on the show very much anymore myself. I know that my ship is never going to be shown, so I just ship in fanfiction and I just root for the friendship moments that are sometimes shown.

I like the way you see it actually... that is how I try to perceive it onscreen (though my imagination goes beyond that in fanfic, etc. ).