Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[epiphany]

sha're was not controlling his mind, she was asking him to find her child. in no way does it appear, to me, that she is controlling him or that in parts he is breaking through a mind control. he is trying to process both her death and her dying request, and this is how his mind raced through that process.

i like what you say about his better nature though. every human has the capacity to hate the person who killed their wife or loved one, even in self defense, or in this case, his defense. in fact, considering how most people in the US feel about the death penalty, i'd say this is more the norm then not. but like you say, daniel's better nature is stronger, and in this way, he is a far better then person most of us, non-fictional, humans.

what i like about jackson, is that his character represents the best of us, but never does it in a way that is preposterous. in FIAD, his race through anger and hate shows a pretty normal reaction. that he ends up in complete forgiveness in a matter of seconds, is what makes him better then us, and a great fictional representative of the best we are capable of achieving.

shame on tptb for not using this incredible character as they should. he is a brilliant creation. he is mythic in his genius and achievements, and shaksperean in the depths of his tragedy - from his childhood to his descension. in many ways this makes him the lead character, or should, for none of the others have this breadth and depth, and none of the others have an actor of this caliber portraying them.

its pretty pathetic that they've failed to capitalize on what he is. like i said in some other forum (and i forget where), i don't think they have a clue about what they have created. i don't think there's any other character on television like this and they have, and apparently continue, to ignore it.

what a waste.

i watch this show, and i watch very little television, because of this character. its a shame that niether the producers nor the writers took advantage of the opportunity he presented in season 7, or that they handled him as badly as they did in season 5.

the funny thing about season 5 though, is that their mistreatment of the character only served to heighten his pathos. it has to make a person smile.

maybe they will address this in the 8th season. maybe they are actually paying attention to the more intelligent 2/3 of fandom.

maybe

uhm yeah... right.

Er...hate to do this but...WHAT SHE SAID! With bells attached! Daniel is all those things. So much potential, yet so very very wasted by those very people who were in a place to make use of it: the writers, the producers, the directors.

I suppose perhaps it isn't such a bad thing, as these people have shown they could do the writing equivalent of screwing up boiling water. As such at least in the minds of those of us capable of appreciating that potential it is still there as opposed to having been completely destroyed in poor execution. But still if only they'd risen to challenge, we and they could have gained so much, especially seeing as they have an actor more than capable of doing justice to such a character.

PS: It was rather ironic that their mistreatment and misuse of the character in Season 5 in many ways only heightened his pathos. Talk about unintended "character arcing". Their very downplaying of the character, because they felt he had no place to go and his "arc" was over, actually created an unintended arc in and of itself, thanks to the very depth and complexity of the character which they apparently fail to see. In some ways that is true of Season 7 as well--when they show a Daniel often seperated from his teammates and teammates who often show little concern while Daniel himself still manages to show a great deal of care and concern not only for those very same teammates but for others, it only serves to highlight those very same better qualities in the face of adversity.

[epiphany]

IMO it was. I believe that if these events had been allowed to continue naturally, the outcome would have been Daniel not forgiving Tealc and leaving the SG1 and the SGC. I don't know how she was able to do it but She managed to show Daniel that he had it within him to forgive Tealc. She also gave him another reason to go on with his life. The search for her son. It was through her intervention that Daniel was able to achieve a sort of closure about her death and in doing so be able to forgive Tealc for his part in it.

I disagree, I think Shar'e just sort of "rushed him through it", he'd have done it himself, only in "real time" it would have taken quite a bit longer than a few seconds. Sha're wanted Daniel to "find the boy", but she had to let his mind go through it's natural process of loss and grief in order for him to understand what she was trying to tell him. In a "dream state" such as it was, time is compressed, somehow weeks or months of experience can be cut down to a few minutes. I've always found that fascinating about dreams--how you can doze off for a few minutes and experience a dream that seems to last for a much longer period of time. Then you wake and realize "Wow it's only been a few minutes since I looked at the clock" .

[Madeleine]

{in reply to 'FiaD wasn't real'} IMO it was. I believe that if these events had been allowed to continue naturally, the outcome would have been Daniel not forgiving Tealc and leaving the SG1 and the SGC. I don't know how she was able to do it but She managed to show Daniel that he had it within him to forgive Tealc.

I have to disagree. He'd lost Sha're once before, in the most awful way, and Teal'c was responsible. He didn't hold it against Teal'c then. Why would Daniel (who isn't so stupid that he couldn't tell that Teal'c was acting to save *him*) suddenly change his personality in order to hate someone?

The vision he had lasted seconds. In that time his mind was able to race through grief and hate and resentment and ultimately forgiveness. If Daniel was *really* all set to hate Teal'c it would have taken him longer than three seconds in between when he saw Teal'c dead and when he found the strength to reassure Teal'c that his action was the right one.

I don't doubt that Sha're's voice in his head made it easier for him not to resent Teal'c, and probably was the reason that his first thought was of Teal'c and how bad he might feel. If it wasn't for the vision he might have not even considered Teal'c's part in it all, but would have moved straight into grieving, not talking to Teal'c about it till later. At which point he might have been somewhat reserved and withdrawn, but I'm certain he wouldn't have been hurtful to Teal'c.

There's just absolutely nothing in the whole of the rest of the seven years of Stargate to suggest that Daniel is the sort of chap who'd blame a person for something that wasn't their fault and carry that grudge to the extent of making that person suffer.

[Dani347]

In real time it was 3 seconds, but I think Daniel's mind honestly went through the weeks or however long it was supposed to be.For him, time slowed.

As for not holding it against Teal'c before, first of all, Sha're wasn't dead before. Even as a gou'ald, there was still some hope. Plus, Teal'c didn't know Daniel when he chose Sha're to be Ammonet's host. This time, he knew Daniel. There wasn't some nameless person who his actions might hurt. He knew he would be hurting a friend. Now, he did it to save Daniel, and I think with time Daniel would have realized it, but I think it would be only human for him to have some resentment. I think it would have taken longer than three seconds without Sha're's vision, but she needed to speed up the process.

Why would the vision have him blaming Teal'c if it wasn't in him at least a little bit to do it? I don't think it makes Daniel stupid, just illogical. Which is what I would expect someone to be if they saw their wife get killed right in front of them. To me, what makes Daniel special isn't that he doesn't have these emotions in him, but that he can move past them. Not everyone can.

[epiphany]

In real time it was 3 seconds, but I think Daniel's mind honestly went through the weeks or however long it was supposed to be.For him, time slowed.

As for not holding it against Teal'c before, first of all, Sha're wasn't dead before. Even as a gou'ald, there was still some hope. Plus, Teal'c didn't know Daniel when he chose Sha're to be Ammonet's host. This time, he knew Daniel. There wasn't some nameless person who his actions might hurt. He knew he would be hurting a friend. Now, he did it to save Daniel, and I think with time Daniel would have realized it, but I think it would be only human for him to have some resentment. I think it would have taken longer than three seconds without Sha're's vision, but she needed to speed up the process.

Why would the vision have him blaming Teal'c if it wasn't in him at least a little bit to do it? I don't think it makes Daniel stupid, just illogical. Which is what I would expect someone to be if they saw their wife get killed right in front of them. To me, what makes Daniel special isn't that he doesn't have these emotions in him, but that he can move past them. Not everyone can.

It was weeks in his mind but the whole point is HE did move past them. No one made him do it. His mind went through it's natural process, his mind had to move past his initial shock, denial and grief to Sha're's death before her message could get make it's way through. Which is why her reaction was sort of "You're finally here" when he got to that point. HE had to get there himself, no one else could make him do it. It's just that time was compressed for him. I don't think Madeleine is saying anything differently. My interpretation isn't that she is saying he wouldn't have had any reaction just that ultimately he wouldn't have held it against Teal'c for a long period of time.

What happened in his dream state doesn't mean it happened exactly as it would have happened in real life--people go through lots of scenarios in their mind but it isn't necessarily the face they present to the world.

Daniel's face to the world likely would have been what it often is--he might have been quieter, he might have kept to himself a bit more but he probably wouldn't have actually shown such an extreme reaction--he'd have thought of it, he may have wanted to do it but he probably would have stayed on because of his friends AND because they depend on him to do his job. That is why the Jack and Sam he created in his mind were doing what they were doing--they were the responsible part that wouldn't just leave the SGC in the lurch, the large part of himself that was going through the gate for alot more reasons than just looking for Sha're however he wanted to try and convince to himself otherwise--and he couldn't do it because ultimately he knows it isn't true. Sha're was NOT the only reason he went through the gate, he went through the gate for the same reasons he finaegled his way onto the original team, for the same reasons he unburied the Abydos gate when he found the cartouche room, for the same reasons he came ::thisclose:: to staying on Heliopolis. In alot of ways this dream wasn't really about Teal'c at all but about Daniel dealing with his own feelings of guilt about what happened to Sha're.

In Cor-Ai he said he wanted to hate Teal'c and he'd tried? Yet he never showed it, he never showed he was trying to hate Teal'c. However, according to what he said, his mind was obviously going through such scenarios. That's what I consider this dream scenario--his process of wanting to but ultimately deciding against it. Think of how his mind shows Teal'c--as someone deserving of his forgiveness, as someone who is acting honorably, as someone who is his friend and only did it to save him. Had his feelings of blame towards Teal'c really run that deep, his mind likely would not have presented Teal'c in such a way. His mind would have tried to demonize Teal'c, perhaps even at some point presented him in some manner as Apophis' First Prime(has anyone ever realized how redundant that title is? ).

[Madeleine]

Thanks Epiphany, that says what I felt much better than I could have!

[epiphany]

Thanks Epiphany, that says what I felt much better than I could have!

Thanks.

RE: the last thing I said about Teal'c, how he is shown behaving honorably and as a true friend. One thing that makes me think the dream is really more about Daniel's dealing with his own feelings of guilt and not so much about Teal'c at all is that, in a way, Daniel's mind makes Daniel come off looking "the worst" of all of them.

He is sympathetic and certainly reacts in a very understandable way that most people would not hold against him and in fact would even consider normal and "right" BUT in Daniel's mind Teal'c comes off as honorable and strong and a good friend, Jack and Sam come off as good, supportive friends. Daniel is the one trying to "run away" from his responsibilities, as it were.

I believe Daniel is mostly dealing with feelings towards himself with regards to the Sha're's situation. What it actually shows is that in his dream Daniel was trying to run away from himself.His dream friends are "positive reflections" as opposed to showing a deep-seated resentment towards Teal'c or a lack of loyalty to the SGC and his team.

In a lot of ways they are reflecting back at him his own past actions--he'd been a good and loyal and supportive friend to all of them, he'd given a great deal towards shaping the SGC into what it was at that time(remember in Broca Divide we hear he had successfully petitioned the president include cultural and scientific aspects to the SGC's mission), he'd been on a quest for knowledge and building bridges with other worlds and peoples.

His dream reaction to Teal'c are his guilty feelings towards his own uncovering of the gate on Abydos. His response that he was only looking for Sha're and he no longer had a reason to go through to Jack's entreaties that he would miss it and be back in a week(can't remember his exact line but that was the idea) are his feelings of guilt about the fact that he wasn't only looking for Sha're. He wasn't only looking for her for the very same reasons he uncovered the gate on Abydos. Knowledge, discovery, "meaning of life stuff", adventure and once he became involved in the SGC, dare I say it, perhaps even fellowship.

IMO.

[GateGipsy]

I'm going to start a thread for MS/Daniel thunking, so that folks can post any pictures, links etc there. That way we leave this thread free for those of us who want to discuss the character, and it also means people will have a place to go to drool over MS without it being off topic.

[Dani347]

Oh, I don't think Sha're made him forgive Teal'c. I think that was all his own. She just maniuplated time. I don't agree (not even sure if this is what people are saying) that no part of him would feel something towards Teal'c. Even with not being able to hate Teal'c in Cor-Ai, the fact that he had it in him to want to tells me that there's something in him, that actually makes him more admirable that he can overcome it. I think the dream is both that part of him did have some blame for Teal'c, but at the same time, he felt guilty (which may be why he came off the worst in his own imagination) because he also, at the same time, knows that Teal'c did what he did to save his life.

[epiphany]

Dani, I'm not sure what you think I'm saying. I'm saying basically he CHOSE to overcome those feelings, not that he never could have had them but that he chose not to. And with good reason, because in this case he'd have been holding some against Teal'c that Teal'c didn't deserve. He'd have used Teal'c as a scapegoat for his own feelings.

[Dani347]

Well, yeah. I think we're on the same page, then. That he did choose to overcome them. And, he could step outside of his grief enough to have the Teal'c of his vision behaving noblely at the same time that the Daniel of his vision was blaming him.

How can anyone not appreciate a man like that?

[Dani347]

Just because being on page 2 makes me cry.

Daniel should interact with the team in season 8. This should be a no brainer. Right?

eta: Daniel should also use the skills that make him special to the team. He is a brilliant linguist and archeologist. He should have the opportunity to use them. He should also succeed sometimes, and get credit.

[Shipperahoy]

I would like to see them elaborate just a wee bit on exactly how Daniel descended. Ideally it should have gone into season 7 but that's not gonna happen. I don't need anything elaborate but just a little something. Last season it was just like "Oh Daniel's back and he's lost his memory, oh wait, it's back. O.k. situation normal".

[Madeleine]

Yes, just one or two scenes in the rest of s7 would have done the trick, otherwise it's only Orpheus.

I wouldn't mind if it was brought up in s8; not just the descension but the fact that it never really was 'dealt with'. Perhaps a line to the effect that "I've been brushing these issues aside for nearly a year now" or something.

[Dani347]

Well, if they
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P
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(And extra)highlight for spoilers:have him really deal with it in connection with his showdown with Anubis, it would fit, and it would make Anubis more than a bundle of dirty laundry.